Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Here's a report from the same newspaper 2 days later that clearly identifies the person in the article below as trans:

Barbie Kardashian 18, of no fixed abode, appeared before Limerick District Court charged with four counts of making threats to kill or cause serious harm.

So the point stands - we're currently running at 20% of the Irish male-born transwomen prison population so far who are undeniably a serious threat to women.

I don't know what the solution to this emerging phenomenon is, but I think we need a better answer than "any woman who objects to male-bodied individuals in female-only places is a trans-phobe".

I'm not sure what the point of this is.

Barbie Kardashian is accompanied at all times by 2 prison officers. The situation has been risk assessed and addressed through these extra security measures.

So the 1 trans woman that you can find in the entire prison system who is a risk has had that risk addressed and managed.

Again I really have to ask - why is there a panic over the violence over 1 trans prisoner in a womens prison but never ever any panic at all over the violence that women prisoners might face from other prisoners or from staff. The panic over trans women in womens prisons is completely unjustified when you look at a) the low numbers of trans prisoners b) the general risk to women prisoners from staff and from other women prisoners generally.

Annasopra wrote: »

I'm not sure what the point of this is.

Barbie Kardashian is accompanied at all times by prison officers. The situation has been risk assessed and addressed through these extra security measures.

So the 1 trans woman that you can find in the entire prison system who is a risk has had that risk addressed and managed.

Again I really have to ask - why is there a panic over the violence over 1 trans prisoner in a womens prison but never ever any panic at all over the violence that women prisoners might face from other prisoners or from staff.

There's no panic. Why bring up the unrelated topic of general prison violence? We likely agree on that.

There's a new law, we are 5 years in. Society changes gradually. In those 5 years we have five prison cases in the public domain to consider, and at least one of those five is a clear danger to women. There are similar stories from other countries.

Why do you prioritise born-men's rights over the rights of born-women to say "hang on, is this right?"

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Why do you prioritise born-men's rights over the rights of born-women to say "hang on, is this right?"

Why do you not take responsibility for your own opinions rather than trying to infer your opinions represent the women of Ireland? If you think it’s not right, you have that right and nobody is trying to take it away from you.

What do you want anyone to do about an issue you’re concerned about, seeing as it’s the Irish Prison Service will determine policies in relation to inmate accommodation, protection and rehabilitation in Ireland?

Would your suggested solution have anything to do with people’s right to their gender identity and protection from discrimination in recognition of their equal status under Irish Equality legislation?

km991148 wrote: »

Ah now, in fairness it could be other reasons.

Many people aren't good with statistics (for example) and don't see the flaw.

That’s what James appears to be banking on

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Again the tactic denigrating the motivation of those who disagree with you. That's ok

What other percentage would you suggest for 1 in 5? 15%, 25%?

Maybe just the facts. 1 person. I didn't think there were 5 trans prisoners anyway. Where are we getting these figures?

Although I'm a little worried if theres 3 or 4 trans prisoners in Irish prisons that James' percentage will jump to 25-33%

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Again the tactic denigrating the motivation of those who disagree with you. That's ok

What other percentage would you suggest for 1 in 5? 15%, 25%?

AHH ok, so it is a case of statistics...

Please consider there are other alternatives to "tactics".

Either you know fine we'll this is not a sound basis for comparison or you need to do some research here (unless you have some other reason for taking this line).

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m not denigrating anything, you do that yourself with a blatantly misleading statement. You’ve done it a couple of times now and it’s 100% your own responsibility.

Here’s more statistics for you -

100% of the inmates you’re referring to are are in single accommodation cells separate from the rest of the population in either prison.

100% of the inmates you refer to in other countries are not in Irish prisons.

See we can both make misleading statements that are 100% true, in order to misrepresent an issue and make out that it should be everyone’s highest priority. Thing is, by your own admission, you don’t have any solutions, and I trust that the Irish Prison Service have far more experience in dealing with issues which arise in Irish prisons than I do, and frankly I don’t care enough to monitor individual inmates - that kind of obsessive behaviour doesn’t do anyone any good. It’s just not healthy.

Thank you for your response Jack. I'm perfectly healthy. I've been on this website for about five years and this is the only topic I'd like to raise a question of concern over.

You've raised a lot of interesting diversions, but the fact remains that we're currently showing at least 20% of the Irish male-born transwomen prison population so far who are undeniably a serious threat to women. Would you like to disprove that statement with some facts?

There are lots of other similar countries we can look to and view larger populations - would you like to give some evidence from other countries where these changes have occured and female-born women are safer?

Again with the "bad faith" insinuation - it's not unreasonable to raise these questions.

I'm open to my mind being changed, but the evidence I see so far, in so many areas like sports and prisons, is that this topic is more complicated than black/white.

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Thank you for your response Jack. I'm perfectly healthy. I've been on this website for about five years and this is the only topic I'd like to raise a question of concern over.

You've raised a lot of interesting diversions, but the fact remains that we're currently showing at least 20% of the Irish male-born transwomen prison population so far who are undeniably a serious threat to women. Would you like to disprove that statement with some facts?

There are lots of other similar countries we can look to and view larger populations - would you like to give some evidence from other countries where these changes have occured and female-born women are safer?

Again with the "bad faith" insinuation - it's not unreasonable to raise these questions.

I'm open to my mind being changed, but the evidence I see so far, in so many areas like sports and prisons, is that this topic is more complicated than black/white.

I’d like to know what evidence you have to support what you claim is fact (your claim that they are a serious threat to women is easily deniable, I can just say no they’re not), otherwise it’s just a pointless half of a statistic that doesn’t make any sense. There’s no context for it, other than suggesting there’s lots of other similar countries to Ireland, I’m assuming you mean for evidence you haven’t provided, yet you’re asking me would I like to refute an opinion you’re trying to present as fact. I wouldn’t James, because it’s quite clear you’re only willing to entertain a one-sided argument regardless of anything which has been presented in the thread already.

You’re not raising questions James, you’re making a poor attempt at playing devils advocate and trying to generate hysteria where there isn’t any. The topic isn’t any more complicated than black and white - people who are transgender are regarded in Irish law as having equal status as everyone else, and being protected from unlawful discrimination in the same way as everyone else in Irish society is protected from unlawful discrimination, regardless of however many inmates there are in prisons whose rights are still recognised in Irish law in the same way as every inmate in prison is entitled to equal treatment.

They are also entitled to protection and recourse in law if they are of the opinion that they have been the victim of an injustice or unfavourable treatment on the basis of one of the nine grounds in Irish Equality legislation, just one of those grounds being protection from unlawful discrimination on the grounds of their gender identity. None of these rights are absolute, and what rights are applicable in any given circumstances will be determined and considered by the Courts. That’s why even if you thought you had a solution to your issue, and let’s be honest it is your issue, it wouldn’t matter, because you have no power to enforce it.

In spite of your thinking I’m being disrespectful towards you and attempting to denigrate your opinions and all the rest of it, I’m just not willing to elevate your opinions to a status they don’t have in my estimation. That’s why I’m not the least bit concerned about your “questions” and suggest that you have little to be concerned about in thinking that one inmate who you zeroed in on presents more of a threat to anyone else than they are to themselves. They’ve essentially been locked up in the women’s prison for their own safety, and there they are monitored like all the other inmates.

I’m just not sure what more you want or what you’re even arguing for.

Annasopra wrote: »

The point is though that this concern for cis womens safety only ever seems to be discussed in relation to trans women in prisons. If the concern is so genuine why is this only bought up now and why is the safety of cis female prisoners in prison with cis male prison staff who could and do abuse them ignored. ...

I think the issue is with putting a violent, male-bodied, convicted criminal, trans or not, into a prison for women. Maybe we wouldn't object or voice concerns if it was a cis male being accommodated, but I'd like to think we would...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The disinterested reader isn’t going to be interested in reading anything, let alone going to the effort of googling anything which would only be confirming your biases. I mean, you’ve literally said in your previous post that you’re open to your mind being changed, yet you’re suggesting other people read up on examples of shìtty behaviour by people who are transgender and therefore confirm your bias for themselves? What point would that prove? That being transgender doesn’t mean anything one way or the other about anyone? I’m absolutely certain people know that already, in spite of your best efforts to make out people who are transgender should be regarded with suspicion.

I don’t even know what question you’re asking, you asked me would I like to disprove something but it’s just your opinion, not facts. I’m certainly willing to refute your opinions when they are deliberately misleading.

Thanks Jack. I did change the word "disinterested" to "independent-minded reader" in my post, apologies. In any case, they can read our posts and make their own minds up.

I don't believe people who are transgender should be regarded with suspicion.

I suspect there is a very small minority of abusive men who are taking advantage of recent changes in the law to abuse women, some examples in my previous post via google.

And therefore female-born women should have the right to raise this issue without being accused of being bigots or anti-trans.

I hope in time we will find a compromise that protects women's rights while also accepting our trans brothers and sisters' rights - both to the greatest degree possible.

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Thanks Jack. I did change the word "disinterested" to "independent-minded reader" in my post, apologies. In any case, they can read our posts and make their own minds up.

I don't believe people who are transgender should be regarded with suspicion.

I suspect there is a very small minority of abusive men who are taking advantage of recent changes in the law to abuse women, some examples in my previous post via google.

And therefore female-born women should have the right to raise this issue without being accused of being bigots or anti-trans.

I hope in time we will find a compromise that protects women's rights while also accepting our trans brothers and sisters' rights - both to the greatest degree possible.

So you're saying some cis men are faking being trans so they can get access to women prisoners......while being kept separately to the women prisoners.....there might be a slight flaw in their plan.

LLMMLL wrote: »

So you're saying some cis men are faking being trans so they can get access to women prisoners......while being kept separately to the women prisoners.....there might be a slight flaw in their plan.

Well hello there Cathy Newman

How would you consider this case to be anything different to what you describe?

Guardian: Those who met White were shocked that she was moved to a female prison, describing the convicted sex offender as “manipulative and controlling”, and questioned her commitment to her transition.

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Thanks Jack. I did change the word "disinterested" to "independent-minded reader" in my post, apologies. In any case, they can read our posts and make their own minds up.

I don't believe people who are transgender should be regarded with suspicion.

I suspect there is a very small minority of abusive men who are taking advantage of recent changes in the law to abuse women, some examples in my previous post via google.

And therefore female-born women should have the right to raise this issue without being accused of being bigots or anti-trans.

I hope in time we will find a compromise that protects women's rights while also accepting our trans brothers and sisters' rights - both to the greatest degree possible.

I’m not posting for the peanut gallery, I’m interested in your thoughts specifically.

I’ve explained it to you numerous times now and it doesn’t appear as though you are willing to keep an open mind. There’s no need for anyone to make any compromises, all that’s happened is that people who had no recognition in Irish law before 2015, now have equal recognition in Irish law and equal protection in law as everyone else. It has nothing to do with the number of inmates of either sex in prisons. The IPS will determine the accommodation for inmates based upon a number of criteria, not just one single criteria which you imagine must be the sole criteria. If that’s the case you’re going to have to review every inmates case files to determine whether or not they’re dangerous individuals who present a threat to the safety of the other inmates. Otherwise it appears as though you’re treating inmates who are transgender unfairly on the basis of their gender identity, which is unlawful. See? No women were harmed in the making of that argument, because it has nothing to do with women.

You still haven’t answered the question I posed earlier, nor do I ever expect you or anyone else to even make an attempt, you expect people should answer your questions, but you don’t imagine you should answer any questions. It’s an immediate double standard on your part. I don’t see why anyone should even entertain your questions if you’ve made it obvious you think you don’t have to answer their questions. My question to you, to anyone, is simple -

If the foundation of your argument is based upon the belief that a small minority of men are taking advantage of recent changes in the law to abuse women, how come this wasn’t an issue for you before, or how come it’s not an issue for you now that there are thousands of men abusing women and children up and down the country in their own homes? You want to spend an inordinate amount of resources on policing the behaviour of a tiny minority of the population (in the hundreds), while there are thousands of women and children being abused in Irish homes up and down the country?

Where do you imagine those women and children in what is supposed to be temporary accommodation are coming from? I know when I worked in the whole area of social care and charities there was never any issue with me entering what you think are women’s spaces, I didn’t need to wear a dress when attending events hosted by Enterprise Ireland for women in business either. So who do you imagine you could protect exactly when you don’t appear to have had any interest in protecting women and children from abusive men up to now?

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Do you post these things assuming folks can't do their own independent research? Karen White attacked two women when she was in a female prison:

(BBC) A transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted two inmates at a women's jail and had previously raped two other women has been given a life sentence.

I'm fully aware of it. However the issue we were dealing with is that you believe cis men will fake being trans to get access to women to abuse. So I made 2 separate points:

1. None of the trans women in Irish prisons currently have access to any other women. Bit silly to fake it in that case.

2. You theorised that Karen White is faking being trans. But they are now undergoing surgery. That's.....taking her deception very far.