Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Dyr

Very good interview with trans man (his own definition) on the current state of affairs.

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784

Large follow up study of boys with gender dysphoria in childhood. 87.8% desistance.

Really interesting stats there, most of the desisters are attracted exclusively to men and most are from lower income social class.

Its really starting to seem like many ‘trans kids’ are just gay men who dont want to admit theyre gay (likely because of the more blatant homophobia among boys especially in lower socioeconomic areas)

ingalway

England Rugby have a lovely way of describing what a female is:

https://twitter.com/annndreeaaaaa/status/1378677347487002625?s=20
Women are basically humans who failed to be men.

suicide_circus

ingalway wrote: »

England Rugby have a lovely way of describing what a female is:

https://twitter.com/annndreeaaaaa/status/1378677347487002625?s=20
Women are basically humans who failed to be men.

Must try harder

One eyed Jack

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I do not understand this attitude. If you are concerned for the welfare of children should you not want more research on these treatments to ensure they are safe and the right thing to do. And if there is improvements that can be made for these children.

Every time some research is done on this. Its you are killing kids. All suicide prevention advice from organisations advises against using discussion of suicide in this way.

If the activists concern is the safety and wellbeing of children is the concern then I really don't think they are going about it in the right way.

It’s not so much that nobody wants research done, the objections are coming from the point of view of research being used to perpetuate fearmongering and discrimination, ultimately with the point of trying to undermine people’s right to their gender identity and deny people appropriate healthcare and equal treatment in law.

Maintaining that any lobby group isn’t going about their aims the right way is no different than saying they’re not going to be treated as equals until they ask nicely. I know that’s not your intention, but that’s essentially the thinking behind it - Respectability Politics. It’s a way of undermining their campaign against discrimination by pointing out that they’re neither being polite nor civil in the face of unfair discrimination, while ignoring the fact that those making the point about politeness and civility can afford to be polite and civil because they’re in a much better position to be so, such as for example if they have a platform as a journalist in mainstream media.

Bambi wrote: »

Very good interview with trans man (his own definition) on the current state of affairs.

Not quite, Debbie Hayton describes themselves as a trans woman, and says that trans women are men (even says so in the caption on the video - “...including me”). They’re very much aware that they are held to the same standards as everyone else in that they too have to self-censor themselves to a huge degree on social media (otherwise they too wouldn’t have the platform they do) -

19 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQdhpVmp0wA

ingalway wrote: »

England Rugby have a lovely way of describing what a female is:


Women are basically humans who failed to be men.

Context. The differential they’re using to distinguish between definitions of male and female is the levels of testosterone in humans, so while it might well be a description that people find objectionable, it’s at least consistent. It’s not at all unusual either among people who claim the fundamental differences between males and females in sports is that higher levels of testosterone in males gives them significant biological advantages over females. You can hardly complain about England Rugby Football Union using the same language you and others have been using in their literature when you’ve been promoting it as the fundamental difference between males and females and using it as the reason why females need segregated sports and facilities and so on. They do preface the glossary of the draft proposals with the following -


The following are a list of commonly used terms in this Policy and are provided to ensure the Policy is clear to everyone who reads it. The RFU acknowledges that not all the terms are used or agreed on by all people.


The draft policy is here, for anyone who wants to take the time to read it, as opposed to being spoon-fed with a picture in a tweet that doesn’t even link to the draft proposals to provide context -


POLICY FOR THE PARTICIPATION OF TRANSGENDER & NON-BINARY GENDER PLAYERS IN CONTACT RUGBY UNION IN ENGLAND

Thankfully the Irish Times has been publishing letters regularly which are raising the issue of the erasure of the words woman and mothers from Irish legislation.
Example

Last year the HSE removed the word “woman” from cervical check material and website and replaced it with the phrase “people with a cervix”. Many women were outraged and said so. After a few months, the HSE said that it had listened to “extensive stakeholder feedback” and the phrase “people with a cervix” was changed to incorporate “women and people with a cervix” wherever it appears in its literature.

Last month, at the lightning pace of shorter than two weeks, the Family Leave and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill was initiated and passed through both the Seanad and the Dáil. The Bill removes the word “mother” from seven existing Acts. The proposed Organisation of Working Time (Reproductive Health Related Leave) Bill 2021 Bill to allow for paid time off for women and mothers, if they have had a miscarriage or need to undergo IVF, doesn’t mention women or mothers once. In addition, both private member Bills to provide free period products before the Seanad don’t mention women or girls once – just “person” or “persons” in the case of the Labour-sponsored Bill and “those” and “everyone” in the Fianna Fáil Bill.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/what-s-wrong-with-the-word-woman-1.4529334

There are other letters over a long time, but I do not have a subscription. It is good these opinions are being published in spite of Amnesty and NCWI's and others outrageous public call last year for people who have these kinds of views and others to be denied a public platform or political representation.

The words woman and mother are good and honourable and meaningful words. They must not be excised from the public language to be kind. Inclusive language does not need to deny people their reality - I am a woman and a mother and I expect societies laws and policies to reflect my experience as much as anyone elses. These are my realities and important to me. Let them write ''woman and...'' or ''mother and...'' etc to be kind.
I am bored and tired of the petty arguments re supposedly pervasive sexism everywhere that some engage in all over the media and online, while at the same time many are ignoring actual real issues.

kildare lad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thankfully the Irish Times has been publishing letters regularly which are raising the issue of the erasure of the words woman and mothers from Irish legislation.
Example



https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/what-s-wrong-with-the-word-woman-1.4529334

There are other letters over a long time, but I do not have a subscription. It is good these opinions are being published in spite of Amnesty and NCWI's and others outrageous public call last year for people who have these kinds of views and others to be denied a public platform or political representation.

The words woman and mother are good and honourable and meaningful words. They must not be excised from the public language to be kind. Inclusive language does not need to deny people their reality - I am a woman and a mother and I expect societies laws and policies to reflect my experience as much as anyone elses. These are my realities and important to me. Let them write ''woman and...'' or ''mother and...'' etc to be kind.
I am bored and tired of the petty arguments re supposedly pervasive sexism everywhere that some engage in all over the media and online, while at the same time many are ignoring actual real issues.

I've said it before on Boards, that soon they'll try and ban the words female and woman and I got laughed at . How has ultra far left ideology managed to taint everything in modern society. Are people so afraid of getting called out as bigots on twitter , that they'll remove words that 99.9999% have no problem with .

https://twitter.com/LunchtimeLiveNT/status/1385230306375053320?s=20

jam_mac_jam

I would not have been comfortable using a gender neutral bathroom as a teenager. Oh the embarrassment of the rustle of a packet so people would know you had a period. The shame.

I wouldn't care now but I think school is different. Hopefully most schools won't do this or have a choice of toilets that you could use one gender only.

There was cases of this in the UK where they had to change them back after the parents objected.

Also the boys, they probably won't mind as much but may want their privacy too.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I would not have been comfortable using a gender neutral bathroom as a teenager. Oh the embarrassment of the rustle of a packet so people would know you had a period. The shame.

I wouldn't care now but I think school is different. Hopefully most schools won't do this or have a choice of toilets that you could use one gender only.

There was cases of this in the UK where they had to change them back after the parents objected.

Also the boys, they probably won't mind as much but may want their privacy too.

Boys could be mortified too. Because groups of girls can also be fairly exuberant and raucous and might tease young fellas. Make them feel self conscious even about the sounds. I would have been really shy as a teenager - and going in to loos where there were common areas would have been a trial. I mean if you are busting for a pee or on your period the last people you want to meet are the lads hanging out. The radio presenter is right - have gender neutral if that fulfils the progressive thing, but maintain privacy with single sex spaces offered also.

jam_mac_jam

Sometimes I feel glad to be old.

Aleece2020

I think legislation should be gender neutral insofar as it makes logical sense for it to be. Example: "Every person/citizen has the right to do X" or "Every person/citizen over the age of 18 is entitled to the service of Y." You know, because women and men are people and what is being talked about here applies to every person not just one gender.

But when we're talking about maternity entitlement a word like mother should be used, because that doesn't apply to anyone who isn't a mother. The same for paternity leave, they should use the word father because the situation applies only to fathers. That just makes sense (but I suppose that's why we wouldn't do it here since nothing makes sense in this country.)

What I don't like is the idea that the words women and mother are shown as being borderline interchangeable or having the same meaning in certain legislation (like it seems to be in 41.2 in the constitution); because not every woman is or wants to be a mother.

https://twitter.com/people/status/1385311457684959242?s=19

Sam Smith got a tattoo with which Freud could have a field day. Shows what gender non binary means, apparently. Small boy, underpants, mirror, high heels - People rush to applaud.

What do non binary boy children do for affirmation if their Mammies do not own high heels? My lads would have been confined to a choice between hiking boots, converse and birkenstock sandals

I mean it is just totally cat, isn't it, the regressiveness of modern gender stereotyping...

mohawk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Boys could be mortified too. Because groups of girls can also be fairly exuberant and raucous and might tease young fellas. Make them feel self conscious even about the sounds. I would have been really shy as a teenager - and going in to loos where there were common areas would have been a trial. I mean if you are busting for a pee or on your period the last people you want to meet are the lads hanging out. The radio presenter is right - have gender neutral if that fulfils the progressive thing, but maintain privacy with single sex spaces offered also.

I agree boys don’t want to see girls washing blood off their hands or even from their skirts. And teenage girls don’t want to do it in front of boys either. Some kids are so shy and would definitely find it uncomfortable.

I agree with the presenter have your gender neutral loo but also keep the men’s and ladies. So everyone gets a choice.

Mic 1972

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Sometimes I feel glad to be old.

Wait until age becomes an opinion, like gender and race
I'm surprised it hasn't happened already

GreeBo

Gender debate could probably be resolved by switching everything that is currently segregated by gender to be segregated by sex, but I presume some would find issue with that.

suicide_circus

I like the way we've stopped using the term unisex in favour of "gender neutral". Wording your incantations correctly is essential when performing woo woo.

One eyed Jack

Aleece2020 wrote: »

I think legislation should be gender neutral insofar as it makes logical sense for it to be. Example: "Every person/citizen has the right to do X" or "Every person/citizen over the age of 18 is entitled to the service of Y." You know, because women and men are people and what is being talked about here applies to every person not just one gender.

But when we're talking about maternity entitlement a word like mother should be used, because that doesn't apply to anyone who isn't a mother. The same for paternity leave, they should use the word father because the situation applies only to fathers. That just makes sense (but I suppose that's why we wouldn't do it here since nothing makes sense in this country.)

That’s generally the case as it is already, with only one exception that I’m aware of -


Can fathers take maternity leave?

Fathers can take maternity leave if the mother dies within 40 weeks of the birth. If she dies within 24 weeks of the birth, he can choose to take the 16 weeks’ additional maternity leave. If the mother dies more than 24 weeks after the birth, the father can take maternity leave up until 40 weeks after the birth. The leave starts within 7 days of the mother’s death.


Maternity leave

Aleece2020 wrote: »

What I don't like is the idea that the words women and mother are shown as being borderline interchangeable or having the same meaning in certain legislation (like it seems to be in 41.2 in the constitution); because not every woman is or wants to be a mother.

I get where you’re coming from, but the idea of making gender neutral the one provision which acknowledges the work of women and mothers in the home and their contribution to society, while 98% of people working in the home are women, is even more a tokenistic gesture than the provision itself ever was in the first place. There’s been numerous discussions of the provisions since it was first introduced and the intent of it’s introduction, and the best it appears anyone could come up with was to refer to family life (goes even further than your suggestion really) -


The Commission is of the view Article 41.2 should be amended to reference ‘family life’ and ‘family life’ should be understood as including a wide range of family relationships and include situations where family members do not live in the same home.


Article 41.2 of the Constitution of Ireland


But then that butts up against the idea of the words ‘women’ and ‘mothers’ being “erased” from language, politics, society and so on. That doesn’t tend to go down well.

suicide_circus

GreeBo wrote: »

Gender debate could probably be resolved by switching everything that is currently segregated by gender to be segregated by sex, but I presume some would find issue with that.

But that would completely undermine the years of trojan effort to blur the lines between the two.

TanookiMario

mohawk wrote: »

I agree boys don’t want to see girls washing blood off their hands or even from their skirts. And teenage girls don’t want to do it in front of boys either. Some kids are so shy and would definitely find it uncomfortable.

I agree with the presenter have your gender neutral loo but also keep the men’s and ladies. So everyone gets a choice.

Why not just do away with the traditional communal toilets completely?

Plenty of restaurants these days will have 3 or 4 rooms with a locking door and individual toilet, sink and dryer.

OK, so older places won't be up to standard right away but new buildings could have that situation as standard and schools etc could be refurbished.

Seems like a decent middle ground.

keano_afc

Find yourself someone who loves you as much as Sam Smith loves himself.

suicide_circus

keano_afc wrote: »

Find yourself someone who loves you as much as Sam Smith loves himself.

I think you'll find that's they self

keano_afc

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think you'll find that's they self

Of course, I forgot this was a polyamorous relationship.

Wallet Inspector

Caitlyn Jenner is of the opinion that trans girls should not take part in girls' sports: https://deadline.com/2021/05/caitlyn-jenner-supports-banning-trans-girls-from-girls-sports-1234748372/

She also said that there were bigger issues than pronouns when a television host apologised to her for mistakenly referring to her numerous times with male pronouns: https://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1385823403005734923?s=19

I saw these items on social media, and the response from those who take issue with her comments is that she's only trying to appease republican voters in her bid for the role of California governor representing that party. And she's privileged and white and a transphobe yadda yadda (no doubt the same people considered her brave for identifying as trans a few years back).

Or... maybe she has a mind of her own and that's her actual opinion, having been an Olympic athlete. She is already running as republican in the first place, so I doubt she is just pretending to hold this view.

Maybe she - being a transwoman like - realises that you don't have to agree with absolutely every opinion you're "supposed to" agree with, in order to be non transphobic. Maybe she just prefers not to pretend that biology is subjective, and that while it's difficult for kids to hear these things, a physical advantage rules out fairness.

EddieN75

Wallet Inspector wrote: »

Caitlyn Jenner is of the opinion that trans girls should not take part in girls' sports: https://deadline.com/2021/05/caitlyn-jenner-supports-banning-trans-girls-from-girls-sports-1234748372/

She also said that there were bigger issues than pronouns when a television host apologised to her for mistakenly referring to her numerous times with male pronouns: https://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1385823403005734923?s=19

I saw these items on social media, and the response from those who take issue with her comments is that she's only trying to appease republican voters in her bid for the role of California governor representing that party. And she's privileged and white and a transphobe yadda yadda (no doubt the same people considered her brave for identifying as trans a few years back).

Or... maybe she has a mind of her own and that's her actual opinion, having been an Olympic athlete. She is already running as republican in the first place, so I doubt she is just pretending to hold this view.

Maybe she - being a transwoman like - realises that you don't have to agree with absolutely every opinion you're "supposed to" agree with, in order to be non transphobic. Maybe she just prefers not to pretend that biology is subjective, and that while it's difficult for kids to hear these things, a physical advantage rules out fairness.

I think a former Olympic athlete knows what they are talking about

Vestiapx

Personally I believe that there are a huge number of professional sports people on Peds and as some of those would be female or of a different race to me I thinks it's inaccurate to suggest that my belief is the result of bias.

Anyway my question and my opinion is this;
Why do/did we split the genders ?
It is my belief that in prisons, as mentioned earlier, the genders are split for safety but if prisons were run correctly then safety wouldn't be an issue and we could have mixed prisons. So the question is can we put trans people in the prison of their choice and maintain safety and I believe the answer is yes. Trans women should go in women's prisons and trans men should go in women's prisons if they want as they would probably be safer. I would just ask that all the men that need safety as well also get the treatment they deserve as I'm working here in the assumption that men's prisons could be more dangerous.

In sport we split the genders because traditionally it was seen as fairer and there have b een a couple of vocal posters having a tet a tate about sporting prowess and average man v average woman. Rythmic gymnastics was then pulled out and while it's interesting to discuss it it is an irrelevance to the logic of seperaring the genders as male and female rythmic gymnastics is a differing disapline and so should be ignored. In the vast vast majority of sports a given person who was born and went through puberty as a male will beat a given person who was born and went through puberty as a female if of course weight age and experiance are roughly equivalent.

Transitioning after puberty is too late and the advantages have been developed and this is science. The same is true with ped users. If a athlete goes through a set of drug cycles that in combination with diet and exercises change their physical ability this will not be taken away from them when they stop the Peds and while they will no longer test positive the benefits will remain.

Before puberty it's fine to have males and females compete but once it kicks in the differences will become apparent.

This is why we divide the genders in sport. Now if I was a trans pre pubescent child would I be better off not going through puberty? Well yes I probably would but this is a complex issue. I simply don't have enough experiance or information to be able to make an opinion on the issue . If Caitlin Jenner could go back in time and ask not to go through puberty then I say yeah that's ok because she ends up a happy woman so male puberty will be wrong for her but without understanding the consequences it's a huge decision.

It's a bit like abortion, I hate abortion I hate the idea of it the need for it and the use of it as a political tool but should it be available ? Of course it should.

Tldr

Trans women that have gone through male puberty will be given the same advantages that Cis women who used Peds for years get. Both will have inherent advantages and a decision should be made whether using Peds is a lifetime band and if so male puberty shod be a Lifetime ban in felame sports. Otherwise make puberty should only be say a 2 year ban.

Ps

I wonder why we have best male and best female in the Oscars tho , seems kinda lame .

Vestiapx

isha wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LunchtimeLiveNT/status/1385230306375053320?s=20

I also hate using the same toilets as people that urinate on the seat I need to sit on. But that's not a gender issue that's a manky bsatard issue. Separate cubicles with background music composed with a cleaning roster and staff that provide hygienic service will sort a majority of these issues.

Vestiapx

Vestiapx wrote: »

I also hate using the same toilets as people that urinate on the seat I need to sit on. But that's not a gender issue that's a manky bsatard issue. Separate cubicles with background music composed with a cleaning roster and staff that provide hygienic service will sort a majority of these issues.

Well it's a gender in as much as out of those who piss of the seat the overwhelming majority are men. And women tend to need to sit down even to lids, meaning they need to sit more often. Though not an obstacle that cannot be overcome indeed.

Gentlemanne

Vestiapx wrote: »

Tldr

Trans women that have gone through male puberty will be given the same advantages that Cis women who used Peds for years get. Both will have inherent advantages and a decision should be made whether using Peds is a lifetime band and if so male puberty shod be a Lifetime ban in felame sports. Otherwise make puberty should only be say a 2 year ban.

Ps

I wonder why we have best male and best female in the Oscars tho , seems kinda lame .

I believe the "Best Actress" award was introduced because of the overwhelming wins by men for "Best Actor". Similarly, although Chess in the competitive sense wasn't gendered, the top players were dominated by men, so a division for Womens Chess was introduced.

It's not that men are just better at chess or acting, there's a larger conversation about institutional sexism. It would be good for people to understand there is a lot of nuance with our social biases.