Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Mic 1972

km991148 wrote: »

woah - are we actually going for the "Gay couples are gonna turn your kids gay" argument?

I mean I could see lots of things the non trans side might pick at (even the pro trans), but the 1980s called and want their arguments back..

Also the underlined part is a contradiction.

Exactly my point.



"Gay couples are going to turn they children gay" is the ultimate argument, and woke ads like that aren't going to help in any way.
Then again, the lesbian couple in the ad did turn their boy into a gender confused child after all, so the argument is there

Gentlemanne

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Exactly my point.



"Gay couples are going to turn they children gay" is the ultimate argument, and woke ads like that aren't going to help in any way.
Then again, the lesbian couple in the ad did turn their boy into a gender confused child after all, so the argument is there

I'm not sure shampoo companies are responsible for people who have homophobic delusions stemming from decade old arguments?

Mic 1972

Gentlemanne wrote: »

I'm not sure shampoo companies are responsible for people who have homophobic delusions stemming from decade old arguments?

i would agree with this, but why serving stories that only corroborates those delusions?
This is the last thing people wanna see about a gay couple raising a child

Gentlemanne

It's not their responsibility. The only blame is on the people who think like that. It's like the racist people who get upset when there's an interracial couplle in an ad.

Seems an absolutely exhausting to be that way.

GreeBo

"she has always been super gender creative" - huh?
Does this means she creates new genders or new realities to suit her gender or what?


Also, the ad has zero to do with hair care, talk about "look at us, look how 'woke' and amazeballs we are!"

Mic 1972

GreeBo wrote: »

"she has always been super gender creative" - huh?
Does this means she creates new genders or new realities to suit her gender or what?

Also, the ad has zero to do with hair care, talk about "look at us, look how 'woke' and amazeballs we are!"

The ad is just disturbing, beginning to end
All i see is a boy who is made to wear girls clothes in public and raised with a very confused identity

At the end when they make him recite "now my outside is matching my inside" is beyond cringeworthy

Gentlemanne

Their advertising is not meant to teach you about hair care, it's to sell as much shampoo as possible. Their marketing team has decided that this kind of scenario will sell shampoo or at the very least improve their brand image (to achieve the same means).

Who's to say if it's actually effective in doing so. But the fact that this is what they're going for may be an indication that the acceptance and understanding of gender identity in the world may be changing (imo for the better, in a more positive way).

Mic 1972

Gentlemanne wrote: »

It's not their responsibility. The only blame is on the people who think like that. It's like the racist people who get upset when there's an interracial couplle in an ad.

Seems an absolutely exhausting to be that way.

People don't need to think that.

Reality is on display in the ad and it doesn't look good on gay parents

km991148

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Reality is on display in the ad and it doesn't look good on gay parents

Whatever views you may or may not have about children identifying as trans, and putting aside what could be seen as exploitation of more serious issues in order to sell soap,

I don't think that many people (outside potential homophobes) are jumping to that conclusion. Would you think the ad was ok if it ran with a straight couple?

Mic 1972

km991148 wrote: »

Whatever views you may or may not have about children identifying as trans, and putting aside what could be seen as exploitation of more serious issues in order to sell soap,

I don't think that many people (outside potential homophobes) are jumping to that conclusion. Would you think the ad was ok if it ran with a straight couple?

I would feel the same about a straight couple.
Unfortunately it's a lesbian couple and it adds to the general idea of gay/lesbian not being fit for parenting.

One eyed Jack

JamesFlynn wrote: »

You make incorrect assumptions about what I think and my motivations, Jack. But fair enough, you're very entitled to them

...

To the best of my knowledge there were no male-born people in female Irish Prisons before the new law in 2015. Today there are.

That's something new and worthy of debate - on the island next door the debate also continues. We should be able to discuss this topic without thinking those who disagree with us are evil.

What’s to debate? To the best of my knowledge, the general public have never had any input into the accommodation policies of the Irish Prison Service. That hasn’t changed since 2015 either, and it still has nothing to do with the purposes of the Gender Recognition Act. It’s entirely under the auspices of the Irish Prisons Services. I don’t know what your motivations are in trying to introduce it into the discussion.

One eyed Jack

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Has anyone seen the new ad for Pantene Shampoo?

...

I give my full support to gay/lesbian parents, but this type of stuff is only going to make people more uneasy with the idea of children being raised by LGBT couples

Let people make whatever assumptions they want, they’re going to do it anyway. As long as they have your support it’s not something parents regardless of their sex or gender identity should have to concern themselves with, the opinions of other people or raising their children according to other people’s standards.

A nauseating ad campaign is nauseating in it’s own right, hardly a reflection of reality.

JamesFlynn

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What’s to debate? To the best of my knowledge, the general public have never had any input into the accommodation policies of the Irish Prison Service. That hasn’t changed since 2015 either, and it still has nothing to do with the purposes of the Gender Recognition Act. It’s entirely under the auspices of the Irish Prisons Services.

Ah Jack, come on now . Since the 2015 Act there are increasing numbers of male-born prisoners in Irish women's prisons.

Barbie Kardashian is in a women's prison in Ireland today - she obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate, under the 2015 Act that says she is a woman.

As for what there is to debate, well it's sufficiently interesting for them to be currently investigating the topic in Westminster, and it's covered as a topic in both left and right leaning media in both countries:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapist-karen-white-in-women-s-jail-was-trans-faker-lbcwjp8jc

You questioned my motivations again - fair enough. I believe it's reasonable to consider whether the system could be improved to protect women from predators like Karen White above. The consequences of these new laws haven't been fully thought through imo and that's worthy of debate.

Mic 1972

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A nauseating ad campaign is nauseating in it’s own right, hardly a reflection of reality.

My only argument here is that they are not actors, that's a real family and it's disturbing to see what's happening to this boy

One eyed Jack

Mic 1972 wrote: »

My only argument here is that they are not actors, that's a real family and it's disturbing to see what's happening to this boy

I take your point Mic, there’s plenty I find disturbing too, it’s why I wouldn’t actively go searching it out and sharing it on social media and promoting their advertising campaign. It only encourages them.

Mic 1972

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I take your point Mic, there’s plenty I find disturbing too, it’s why I wouldn’t actively go searching it out and sharing it on social media and promoting their advertising campaign. It only encourages them.

I feel the opposite about this. That's like asking me to ignore child abuse

Annasopra

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Exactly my point.

"Gay couples are going to turn they children gay" is the ultimate argument, and woke ads like that aren't going to help in any way.
Then again, the lesbian couple in the ad did turn their boy into a gender confused child after all, so the argument is there

This is absolute drivel and nonsense. The argument isnt there.

The parents did not "turn their" child into anything
The girl came out to her parents
She is not confused - she is very clear in this “Just be yourself and don’t let anybody tell you who you are"

Annasopra

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I would feel the same about a straight couple.
Unfortunately it's a lesbian couple and it adds to the general idea of gay/lesbian not being fit for parenting.

Not really - you are trying to portray this as some of way of showing that lesbian parents are unfit. Thats your opinion and your issue. Dont project into others.

Annasopra

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Ah Jack, come on now . Since the 2015 Act there are increasing numbers of male-born prisoners in Irish women's prisons.

Less than 5

This isnt a major problem

One eyed Jack

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I feel the opposite about this. That's like asking me to ignore child abuse

Well, as long as we’re clear it’s only like asking you to ignore child abuse. I would never suggest anyone actually ignore what they think is child abuse, they should immediately report their concerns to the relevant authorities.

Otherwise it just appears as though they’re trying to make an example of something they don’t agree with by accusing the parents of child abuse. I don’t think the video you linked to could reasonably be regarded as an example of the child being abused, but I accept we have different standards and different ideas of what we may find personally disturbing. I was thinking more along the lines of that godawful advertisement for tampax tbh.

Mic 1972

Annasopra wrote: »

Not really - you are trying to portray as some of way of showing that lesbian parents are unfit. Thats your opinion and your issue. Dont project into others.

That boy is too young to know about gender, yet they are dressing him up and making him act like one, if left unchallenged he might grow up like a regular guy, gay or straight, but not necessarily a guy who needs to be turned into a woman.
That's unfit parenting to me.

Mic 1972

Annasopra wrote: »

This is absolute drivel and nonsense. The argument isnt there.

The parents did not "turn their" child into anything
The girl came out to her parents
She is not confused - she is very clear in this “Just be yourself and don’t let anybody tell you who you are"

That definitely sounds like something an 8 year old boy would come up with.
Making that boy say those lines adds up to the sense of brainwashing that goes on in the household

One eyed Jack

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That boy is too young to know about gender, yet they are dressing him up and making him act like one, if left unchallenged he might grow up like a regular guy, gay or straight, but not necessarily a guy who needs to be turned into a woman.
That's unfit parenting to me.

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That definitely sounds like something an 8 year old boy would come up with.
Making that boy say those lines adds up to the sense of brainwashing that goes on in the household

And you’ve determined on that basis that the parents in your opinion are guilty of child abuse.

Well, it’s one way to trivialise child abuse I suppose.

Mic 1972

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And you’ve determined on that basis that the parents in your opinion are guilty of child abuse.

Well, it’s one way to trivialise child abuse I suppose.

I mentioned child abuse in response to your suggestion that i should not share this link with other people which to me is like asking to ignore a serious issue - like for example child abuse - that needs to be exposed.
Than again, what is happening to this boy could probably be seen as a form of abuse

One eyed Jack

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I mentioned child abuse in response to your suggestion that i should not share this link with other people which to me is like asking to ignore a serious issue - like for example child abuse - that needs to be exposed.
Than again, what is happening to this boy could probably be seen as a form of abuse

It’s an odd comparison Mic, not the first comparison that would come to most people’s minds I would imagine. Finding something personally disturbing, and highlighting what you imagine is a serious issue are two entirely separate concepts, and the whole premise of your original point was that the advertisement is what makes people uneasy about parents who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, etc.

At least own your responsibility for the claims you make instead of trying to project them onto anyone else. If it makes you uneasy, then just say that, rather than trying to put responsibility for your unease on the people whose values you disagree with, or ‘highlighting issues’ like you actually care about the perpetuation of negative stereotypes of people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.

You’re contributing to the very issue you’re complaining about, and then trying to make out that you wouldn’t think like that though :pac:

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Has anyone seen the new ad for Pantene Shampoo?

...

A lesbian couple turned their boy into a girl, dressing him up in girls clothes and referring to him as a she. It's not clear how old the boy is, but he doesn't look old enough to know what he's doing.
I give my full support to gay/lesbian parents, but this type of stuff is only going to make people more uneasy with the idea of children being raised by LGBT couples

Who are you trying to kid with that nonsense?

Annasopra

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That boygirl is too young to know about gender, yet they are dressing him herup andmaking him act like onebelieving her, if left unchallenged he might grow up like a regular guy, gay or straight, but not necessarily a guy who needs to be turned into a woman. she is prevented from expressing her true gender identity and forced to deny it thats dangerous

This is all very much your opinion. Its very much your opinion that trans children shouldnt be accepted that they are what they say they are You seem to have this strange idea that the parents of trans children turn them into trans - no idea how this works exactly? You seem to have a strange idea that parents should force their children into wearing into wearing gender specific clothing and only having characteristics of the gender they are assigned at birth. Why is that though? Why do you feel trans children shouldnt be accepted? Why are you in favour of forcing children like this? Why do you want to force trans kids not to be trans?

Wibbs

Annasopra wrote: »

Not really - you are trying to portray this as some of way of showing that lesbian parents are unfit. Thats your opinion and your issue. Dont project into others.

+1 I know a few Gay and Lesbian couples with kids(well three so..). Standard operational families going on. Mostly content with madness in the teens. None of their kids are Gay or Lesbian as far as I know so clearly the "brainwashing" didn't work. And if such "give me the boy, I'll give you the (Gay) man" stuff did work and given the majority of families are headed by Straight couples presumably passing on their straightness on a daily basis in an overwhelmingly Straight society and culture then surely there'd be near zero Gay people?

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That boy is too young to know about gender, yet they are dressing him up and making him act like one, if left unchallenged he might grow up like a regular guy, gay or straight, but not necessarily a guy who needs to be turned into a woman.

As an aside on the age thing - and granted this is a small sample so caveats ahoy; all the Gay men I've known well enough to talk about such things told me that they knew at a young age - Well, before adolescence anyway - that they were somehow a little "different", not quite the same as their peers. Some were picked on by their peers for that difference. If you'd asked me at ten was I different I'd have been "eh wut". Nothing to do with sexuality at that age either as it was quite clear to me that girls smell and are no fun. Until they didn't and weren't.

Mic 1972 wrote: »

That definitely sounds like something an 8 year old boy would come up with.
Making that boy say those lines adds up to the sense of brainwashing that goes on in the household

Far more likely a young American(and elsewhere) kid exposed to mass media like no other generation before and picking up such precocious stuff from that. "Just be yourself" is a mantra for the modern self help self obsessed age, even if "being yourself" is a whiny pain in the arse. Hell I remember way back when apparently in between snorting mountains of Columbian marching powder to clear her vocal chords Whitney Houston was warbling on about "the greatest love of all" and every Oprah Winfrey junkie of all ages was coming out with same.

JamesFlynn

JamesFlynn wrote:

Since the 2015 Act there are increasing numbers of male-born prisoners in Irish women's prisons.

Annasopra wrote: »

Less than 5

This isnt a major problem

Well it isn't for you, but you're not one of the women who were attacked in prison by Karen White.

Karen White: how 'manipulative' transgender inmate attacked again

There are many other cases we can point to.

On current trends, and assuming similar rates of incarceration for trans, this number will greatly increase in the next decade:

The Guardian : dysphoria diagnoses soar by 1,500%

We need an open debate about how, with these changes, we will best protect women from predators like Karen White, who use the laws to manipulate themselves into positions where they can abuse.

Annasopra

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Well it isn't for you, but you're not one of the women who were attacked in prison by Karen White.

Karen White: how 'manipulative' transgender inmate attacked again

There are many other cases we can point to.

On current trends, and assuming similar rates of incarceration for trans, this number will greatly increase in the next decade:

The Guardian : dysphoria diagnoses soar by 1,500%

We need an open debate about how, with these changes, we will best protect women from predators like Karen White, who use the laws to manipulate themselves into positions where they can abuse.

What? This is Ireland. The discussion is about Ireland. Its not about Sweden. Its not about the UK. In the 6 years since the GR Act there have been a handful of cases where trans women were placed in womens prisons. Point away at cases but we are talking about Ireland nowhere else. There has been no case in Ireland that a trans woman has assaulted other female prisoners. The law in Ireland does not expressly state that trans women must be placed into a womens prison by the way - this is left upto the judge to decide. It says an awful lot that gender critics always claim concern for women in prisons but only concern in relation to attacks by trans women - never ever concern that women prisoners might be attacked by cis male prison officers. Its very telling.

CIS male prison officers arent in prison because they are dangerous enough to be locked up

What a rotten point.