Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Annasopra

JamesFlynn wrote: »

Thanks Jack. I believe you're putting your point of view in good faith and thank you for responding to my post.

I'd ask the independent-minded reader to consider however whether you answered the direct questions I asked below:



And to google for themselves the cases of Barbie Kardashian, Karen White, Tara Pearsall, Madilyn Rebecca Harks, Tara Desousa, and many others and make their own minds up.

I'd also suggest looking up the case this week of Aimee Challenor and asking themselves how such a situation could have happened.

Whats your point here?

I am sure we could provide hundreds of cases where cis women prisoners have been assaulted by other cis women prisoners and by male staff.

The law has been in place in Ireland 6 years and there isnt a huge increase in trans women attacking other women prisoners. 100% of the trans women prisoners here havent attacked other women prisoners. Where there is a risk 100% of the risks have been identified and addressed by bringing in measures of extra staff or solitary confinement. 100% of the concerns you address about Irish prisons are addressed.

Whats your point about Aimee Challenor?

Annasopra

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

I think the issue is with putting a violent, male-bodied, convicted criminal, trans or not, into a prison for women. Maybe we wouldn't object or voice concerns if it was a cis male being accommodated, but I'd like to think we would...

I think you have missed this issue being addressed time and time again in the thread. In these cases in Ireland where a violent trans woman has been imprisoned it has been risk assessed and extra procedures have been put in place such as solitary confinement and extra prison officers accompanying the violent prisoner.

Annasopra

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

I think the issue is with putting a violent, male-bodied, convicted criminal, trans or not, into a prison for women. Maybe we wouldn't object or voice concerns if it was a cis male being accommodated, but I'd like to think we would...

But this is ignoring the point. Why do people only ever concern themselves about cis women prisoners when it comes to discussing trans women. Why are the safety concerns of cis women prisoners otherwise completely ignored.

Annasopra

JamesFlynn wrote: »

I suspect there is a very small minority of abusive men who are taking advantage of recent changes in the law to abuse women, some examples in my previous post via google

There is no evidence of this

Ireland has had self id for 6 years. A handful of cases.
The other cases you reference are all in countries with no Self ID in their laws.

Annasopra

JamesFlynn wrote: »

I don't believe people who are transgender should be regarded with suspicion.
.

But a lot of your posts are treating trans women with suspicion.

volchitsa

Annasopra wrote: »

But this is ignoring the point. Why do people only ever concern themselves about cis women prisoners when it comes to discussing trans women. Why are the safety concerns of cis women prisoners otherwise completely ignored.

That's not a point, that's whataboutism.

And probably defamatory to the prison services. Of course the safety concerns are not completely ignored, but the problem is different.

What you're doing is like people trying to shut down all talk about male violence against women by complaining that men are more often victims of male violence. It's true, but in this context it's still just whataboutism.

Annasopra

volchitsa wrote: »

Of course the safety concerns are not completely ignored,

They are. The people who raise concerns about cis women prisoners being at risk from trans prisoners always completely ignore all other safety and security risks of the cis women prisoners concerned.

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

That's not a point, that's whataboutism.

And probably defamatory to the prison services. Of course the safety concerns are not completely ignored, but the problem is different.

What you're doing is like people trying to shut down all talk about male violence against women by complaining that men are more often victims of male violence. It's true, but in this context it's still just whataboutism.

That’s exactly the point - people who raise sudden concerns about the welfare of women in prisons where they don’t appear to have had any concerns before, they’re raising concerns only when the inmate is transgender. It’s not probably defamatory of prison services either, and for you to come out with that and then to say making a counterpoint is like trying to shut down the thread?

Goodness sake nobody is trying to shut down the thread, but the same non-arguments have been brought up again and again in the form of “raising concerns”, “just asking questions”, “I don’t know what the solution is”, the solution isn’t to perpetuate ignorance for one thing. The solution isn’t to perpetuate unlawful discrimination. The problem isn’t any different, it’s the same old attempts to perpetuate discrimination while claiming that it’s not intended to perpetuate discrimination :rolleyes:

Jesus if I don’t want anything to do with someone I avoid them rather than seeking them out or creeping on them on social media to “warn people” about them or any of the rest of that nonsense. None of it has anything to do with gender identity in modern Ireland. It’s literally just flinging shìt and hoping something sticks.

GreeBo

Annasopra wrote: »

But this is ignoring the point. Why do people only ever concern themselves about cis women prisoners when it comes to discussing trans women. Why are the safety concerns of cis women prisoners otherwise completely ignored.

Perhaps because a biological male can do a lot more damage to a woman than another woman can?

Its similar to why I am more worried about gun control than I am about butter knife control.

/edit
The other glaringly obvious factor is that men are much more likely to be violent than women are.

IrishTimes wrote:

In the 14-16 age bracket, male convictions stand at 83 and female convictions at 11.

The difference between male and female convictions widens with age, with 580 males and 50 females convicted in the 17-20 age range, and 2,285 males and 135 females convicted in the 21+ category.

One eyed Jack

GreeBo wrote: »

Perhaps because a biological male can do a lot more damage to a woman than another woman can?

Its similar to why I am more worried about gun control than I am about butter knife control.

/edit
The other glaringly obvious factor is that men are much more likely to be violent than women are.

Seems to be all about the hyperbolic imagery conjured up by imbuing an already biased narrative with misleading data tbh - it’s all in the way it’s presented.

It’s impossible to quantify whether any of the statements you make are true or not because they’re being presented in a way which suits your already held opinions. For example you say that a biological male can do more damage to a woman than another woman can, and in the context of women’s prisons we know from what statistics we have that this simply isn’t true. Women inmates are far more likely to be subject to all sorts of abusive behaviours in prisons first of all from prison staff of either sex, and then from the other female inmates, at higher rates than male inmates abuse other male inmates in prison in the US.

We also know that while statistics tell us child sex abusers are overwhelmingly male, and while offending patterns do differ between male sex offenders and female sex offenders, female sex offenders will also primarily target female children as their victims -


Female offenders also showed a different pattern than men with respect to the gender of their victims. Whereas male offenders chose female victims 80% of the time, female offenders chose female victims 68% of the time. These numbers suggest that female offenders are not only more likely to target victims of the same sex, but also to show somewhat less strength in the gender preference of their victims.

Moreover, female offenders tended to have a different relationship with their victims than male offenders. For instance, when the perpetrator was a parent of the victim, that parent was much more likely to be female than male. When the perpetrators were other relatives, unmarried partners, friends, or neighbors, they were more likely to be male.

A few other important differences were that male sex offenders appeared to begin their offenses earlier in life and continue them for a longer period of time than female offenders. Furthermore, female offenders were more likely than male offenders to be using drugs, to have physical and/or mental disabilities, and to be from homes in which other forms of domestic violence were occurring.


How Are Female Sex Offenders Different From Male Sex Offenders?


Whether or not men are or aren’t more likely to be violent (another unqualified and unquantifiable standard) than women is also based upon correlations from studies which already display a significant bias towards perpetuating that particular narrative in society, but the context in which we were talking about here was inmates who are transgender who are accommodated in women’s prisons, and the risk posed to other women.

If I were an inmate in prison I’d definitely be more concerned about knife control than gun control, though these inmates don’t appear to be too concerned, looks like they enjoy a bit of horseplay with knives -





Scissor Sister moved to new jail after knife photos leaked


Context, is more important than any single statistic, unless your interest isn’t in coming up with solutions, but is rather intended to perpetuate misleading information.

Anyway, would you like those statistics as reported by the victim, as reported by the perpetrator, or as reported by an officers best judgment, or in accordance with Irish legislation? You’ll want them to be accurate as possible of course, but from who’s point of view exactly?

GreeBo

Thought I'd link this post from another CA thread as it seems painfully relevant.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is the biological sex of the offender relevant?

Because criminological analyses aims to analyse crimes and deviant behaviour with the aim of reducing its occurrence. Contaminating factual data with subjective data impedes this crucial purpose.

Because turning the female estate into a mixed sex estate is fundamentally abusive and endangering to the natal women housed there with no route of escape.

The researchers state:
‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.’


Written evidence submitted by Professor Rosa Freedman, Professor Kathleen Stock and Professor
Alice Sullivan [GRA2021]
Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates

This evidence is submitted to the WEC as requested of Professor Rosa Freedman by Nicola
Richards MP during the 9
th December Oral Evidence Session. The submission is divided into
the following sections: (1) a summary of the Swedish study referred to in the session, and a
response to some attempt to rebut that study; (2) data from the Ministry of Justice; and (3)
analysis of that data from a May 2020 academic paper on transgender prisoners in England
and Wales.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwjUs4719c3vAhUwQxUIHc50Df8QFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h

One eyed Jack

GreeBo wrote: »

Thought I'd link this post from another CA thread as it seems painfully relevant.

Seems relevant, until you actually try and read it. Most of the source links are broken, and statements and statistics are taken out of context. I know it’s intended to support the idea that the safety of women in prison is under threat from inmates who are transgender, but their claims just aren’t supported by factual data. If the claim is that it’s relevant to demonstrating a point about an association between inmates who are transgender and “male patterns of violence”, the submission doesn’t do that either.

As I suggested earlier, context is what is relevant when investigating any issue like this and interpreting data with even a small shred of integrity and objectivity, which isn’t present in research primarily conducted with male subjects. It seems an obvious point to make that male patterns of violence will be apparent when the participants or subjects being studied to determine offending patterns, are male.

Research relating to female offenders barely exists, and even less so has the area of transgender offenders been studied. To claim then that transgender offenders exhibit similar patterns to male offenders is not based upon any data, it’s based upon an interpretation of the limited data there is available to draw a correlation which just isn’t supported by objective evidence.

That’s notwithstanding the fact that as more research is being conducted into the issue of female sex offenders, just like research into male offenders, they’re finding the figures are rising (confirmation bias, who knew that when you zero in on an issue, it appears to be more prevalent than it is in reality) -

Victims of female child sexual abusers face "enormous stigma and shame", according to police and charities.

Figures from BBC Radio 4's File on 4 show there were over 10,400 reports of this type of abuse from 2015 to 2019 - equivalent to an average of 40 a week.

Experts say there is still a "lack of understanding" about the extent of such abuse.

The UK government said it would not allow "any safe space for sex offenders to operate - male or female".

Between 2015 and 2019, the numbers of reported cases of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse to police in England and Wales rose from 1,249 to 2,297 - an increase of 84%.

Dr Andrea Darling, a criminology researcher at Durham University - who has looked at 40 cases of male and female teachers who sexually abused students - said the File on 4 figures represented the "tip of the iceberg".

She said that although all child sexual abuse was underreported, there was a particular "lack of understanding" of the extent of female-perpetrated abuse.

"That means that potentially abusive behaviour that may have been picked up if the perpetrator had been a male is explained away," she said.

"I've seen that consistently in my research."

She added it was "fundamentally important" to understand a lot more about this kind of child sexual abuse.

Female child sex abuse 'remains taboo' while victims struggle

Annasopra

GreeBo wrote: »

Perhaps because a biological male can do a lot more damage to a woman than another woman can?

Its similar to why I am more worried about gun control than I am about butter knife control.

/edit
The other glaringly obvious factor is that men are much more likely to be violent than women are.

But we have seen in Ireland where the situations of trans women in womens prisons have been risk assessed and protections for other prioners have been put in place though. So the concerns about trans women in prisons in Ireland are being addressed and have been addressed.

The point that keeps glossed over and ignored though is that there are often concerns about women safety and security that get overlooked and ignored and not discussed. So it seems like the concern isnt really about the safety and security of women prisoners at all because other elements are never ever discussed.

Lets look at this way. If violent crimes are the threshold for getting sent to male prison and if there is genuine concern for women prisoners safety and security where are the campaigns to send violent female criminals who are not trans to men’s prisons?

GreeBo

Annasopra wrote: »

But we have seen in Ireland where the situations of trans women in womens prisons have been risk assessed and protections for other prioners have been put in place though. So the concerns about trans women in prisons in Ireland are being addressed and have been addressed.

The point that keeps glossed over and ignored though is that there are often concerns about women safety and security that get overlooked and ignored and not discussed. So it seems like the concern isnt really about the safety and security of women prisoners at all because other elements are never ever discussed.

Lets look at this way. If violent crimes are the threshold for getting sent to male prison and if there is genuine concern for women prisoners safety and security where are the campaigns to send violent female criminals who are not trans to men’s prisons?

They are probably in the relevant thread, rather than in the transgender thread?
More whataboutery doesn't change reality I'm afraid.

Annasopra

GreeBo wrote: »

They are probably in the relevant thread, rather than in the transgender thread?
More whataboutery doesn't change reality I'm afraid.

Where is this relevant thread? Where are all these threads about campaigns for the safety of cis women prisoners? Why are there no campaigns about womens prison safety until trans prisoners go there?

If you really look at this the vast majority of those expressing concern about this specific issue dont really care about women prisoners who are victims of violence until trans women prisoners get sent there. As well as that basically when you deconstruct out all the arguments the prison argument is basically that criminals cannot be trans.

The reality is in this country that we have had less than a handful of trans women prisoners in womens prisons and in these cases they have been risk assessed and procedures put in place to manage and address the risks.

volchitsa

Annasopra wrote: »

Where is this relevant thread? Where are all these threads about campaigns for the safety of cis women prisoners? Why are there no campaigns about womens prison safety until trans prisoners go there?

WHy don't you start one? And should we interpret the fact that you haven't done so to mean that you don't care about women's safety?

(Of course we shouldn't, because it would be mere whatabout, whatabout".

Annasopra

volchitsa wrote: »

WHy don't you start one? And should we interpret the fact that you haven't done so to mean that you don't care about women's safety?

(Of course we shouldn't, because it would be mere whatabout, whatabout".

The concern for women prisoners safety and security only seems to be an issue in relation to the specific niche issue of trans women prisoners. But the reality is women prisoners face lots of safety and security issues.

One eyed Jack

volchitsa wrote: »

WHy don't you start one? And should we interpret the fact that you haven't done so to mean that you don't care about women's safety?

(Of course we shouldn't, because it would be mere whatabout, whatabout".

The “what about” is the straw clutching attempts of a few posters here to use examples of circumstances where they claim women are at risk from men or men who they are claiming are pretending to be women, as a means to argue that people who are transgender should be subject to unlawful discrimination.

The same people don’t appear to have cared about these issues before, they only seem to care when they can associate these issues with people who are transgender in order to perpetuate discrimination against people who are transgender.

That’s the whataboutery. The whataboutery isn’t asking why are people only concerned about the issues they’re raising now, when these were always issues, and existed long before people who are transgender were granted equal status and protection from discrimination in Irish society. What do you possibly hope to achieve by bringing up these issues in this thread? Why don’t you start a new thread if you’re that concerned about the issue of women’s safety in women’s prisons and so on?

I’ll even do you a favour and give you a few stories to start with -

Attacker smeared the word "PIGS" on wall of prison cell in menstrual blood

Court hears claims woman bit Garda's leg

Woman bit garda and wouldn't let go, court hears

Woman kicked female garda in the face after arrest at hospital

Garda kicked by ‘aggressive and abusive’ woman gets damages


And if you specifically want to start threads on people who are transgender who have been convicted for committing sexual offences, you don’t mind if I use examples from the UK? Knock yourself out with a whole slew of them here questioning how dangerous all these people are to women -


How An Online Love Affair Ended With A Trans Man Convicted Of Sexual Assault


Or, it could just be a fact that individuals are held responsible in law for their own behaviour, regardless of any characteristics they share in common with other people, the offences they choose to commit are not reflective or representative of the wider group in society to which they belong, contrary to your assertions about “male violence” and all the rest of it or attempted associations of violence with people who are transgender. The people who choose to commit violence and abuse are outliers in any group, they are the exception, not the rule, and any claims of a correlation are simply based upon biased narrative as opposed to factual scientific or statistical evidence.

GreeBo

Annasopra wrote: »

Where is this relevant thread?

Exactly.
Why are you only concerned with safety for women when others bring up issues with detaining biological men alongside biological women?

Men are more aggressive and violent than women. This is largely down to biology, so it's hardly surprising that people are concerned with detaining both sexes together.
If there are no concerns, does that mean you advocate mixed prisons with no segregation, biology or gender based?

Annasopra

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
Why are you only concerned with safety for women when others bring up issues with detaining biological men alongside biological women?

Men are more aggressive and violent than women. This is largely down to biology, so it's hardly surprising that people are concerned with detaining both sexes together.
If there are no concerns, does that mean you advocate mixed prisons with no segregation, biology or gender based?

But its not me that is ignoring all these other safety and security issues. I am the one that is actually bringing them up. I am the one highlighting them.

Yet those with all the specific concerns of violence from trans women dont want to discuss violence against women in womens prisons generally.

I dont see any big problems with what we do here in Ireland regarding trans women prioners which is that there is a decision based on a case by case basis on what to do and in cases where the trans prisoner is known to be violent then the situation is addressed through risk assesments and extra procedures such as extra staff accompanying the prisoner or placing the prisoner in solitary confinement. But I havent seen anyone here who has concerns listen and take on board that that is what happens.

GreeBo

Annasopra wrote: »

But its not me that is ignoring all these other safety and security issues. I am the one that is actually bringing them up. I am the one highlighting them.

You are bringing them up in the Gender Identity thread, I reckon thast not where they belong?

Annasopra wrote: »

Yet those with all the specific concerns of violence from trans women dont want to discuss violence against women in womens prisons generally.

Yeah, because its the Gender Identity thread?

Annasopra wrote: »

I dont see any big problems with what we do here in Ireland regarding trans women prioners which is that there is a decision based on a case by case basis on what to do and in cases where the trans prisoner is known to be violent then the situation is addressed through risk assesments and extra procedures such as extra staff accompanying the prisoner or placing the prisoner in solitary confinement. But I havent seen anyone here who has concerns listen and take on board that that is what happens.

I note you didn't actually answer my question, so I will ask again.
"If there are no concerns, does that mean you advocate mixed prisons with no segregation, biology or gender based?"

You might not know that a prisoner is violent until after they are violent, naturally by then it's too late.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1377585303020564482?s=19

suicide_circus

cui bono?

anewme

Today is transdayofvisability.

Lots of organisations and individuals are sending messages of support.

From Pieta House:

Today is transdayofvisability and we Pieta want to send a message of solidarity and support to the trans community.

We see you, we celebrate you and we are dedicated to standing up against transphobia.

Well said.

It was the day before yesterday.

anewme

Deleted User wrote: »

It was the day before yesterday.

You are right!

That's me catching up on my social media on my day off.

Sending support anyway.

https://www.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784

Large follow up study of boys with gender dysphoria in childhood. 87.8% desistance.

Deborah Cohen, Health correspondent at BBC Newsnight, former investigative editor at BMJ, and shortlisted yesterday for Steve Connor Award for investigative journalism, is being abused for publishing results of independent investigations into GIDS Tavistock.

https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1378099014340579331?s=19

jam_mac_jam

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Deborah Cohen, Health correspondent at BBC Newsnight, former investigative editor at BMJ, and shortlisted yesterday for Steve Connor Award for investigative journalism, is being abused for publishing results of independent investigations into GIDS Tavistock.

https://twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1378099014340579331?s=19

I do not understand this attitude. If you are concerned for the welfare of children should you not want more research on these treatments to ensure they are safe and the right thing to do. And if there is improvements that can be made for these children.

Every time some research is done on this. Its you are killing kids. All suicide prevention advice from organisations advises against using discussion of suicide in this way.

If the activists concern is the safety and wellbeing of children is the concern then I really don't think they are going about it in the right way.

suicide_circus

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I do not understand this attitude. If you are concerned for the welfare of children should you not want more research on these treatments to ensure they are safe and the right thing to do. And if there is improvements that can be made for these children.

Every time some research is done on this. Its you are killing kids. All suicide prevention advice from organisations advises against using discussion of suicide in this way.

If the activists concern is the safety and wellbeing of children is the concern then I really don't think they are going about it in the right way.

it's more about the affirmation of adults