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Cheltenham 2021 Antepost

1235730

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Anniepowaa


    envoi allen is unbeatable and ballyadam wont win at cheltenham


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Anniepowaa wrote: »
    envoi allen is unbeatable and ballyadam wont win at cheltenham


    so nothing can beat envoi allen for ever and ever ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Anniepowaa


    akelly02 wrote: »
    so nothing can beat envoi allen for ever and ever ?

    nothing will touch him for 3 years minimum as long as he stays fit


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Anniepowaa wrote: »
    nothing will touch him for 3 years minimum as long as he stays fit



    thanks .

    your a hero for giving us that insight


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Every single horse that has been put in front of him.

    Let me turn the question around, I already have but you have ignored it, what beats it??

    Over 3 miles -

    Next Destination, Monkfish, Energume ( hopefully goes to the Marsh to prove my point ) , The Big Getaway, Pencilfullofled .. the list could go on. In fairness the fact that connections are avoiding this troop " because it is a hard race " really speaks volumes.

    In the Marsh he could face Andy Dufresne, Sporting John , Asterion Forlonge - it is no cakewalk in fairness. As I said I would like to see Energume here either.

    He wouldn't have the pace for Shiskin, Unexcepted or Mt Lenister in the Arkle.

    There are lots of horses who he hasn''t raced against yet. Which is the heart of the argument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Thank you Sir, you have certainly brightened up my Monday morning :D:D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Thank you Sir, you have certainly brightened up my Monday morning :D:D

    I am telling you , he is overhyped and the fact that they won't go RSA is glaring.

    Who did he even beat yesterday?

    Weakest renewal in years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Coneygree


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Over 3 miles -

    Next Destination, Monkfish, Energume ( hopefully goes to the Marsh to prove my point ) , The Big Getaway, Pencilfullofled .. the list could go on. In fairness the fact that connections are avoiding this troop " because it is a hard race " really speaks volumes.

    In the Marsh he could face Andy Dufresne, Sporting John , Asterion Forlonge - it is no cakewalk in fairness. As I said I would like to see Energume here either.

    He wouldn't have the pace for Shiskin, Unexcepted or Mt Lenister in the Arkle.

    There are lots of horses who he hasn''t raced against yet. Which is the heart of the argument.

    Can't agree with most of this but with you 100% on hoping Energumene goes for the Marsh. I really like the horse and I'd be gutted if he goes to the Arkle or even skips the festival. Heard Paul Townend is very sweet on him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    I am telling you , he is overhyped and the fact that they won't go RSA is glaring.

    Who did he even beat yesterday?

    Weakest renewal in years.

    Where in the name of christ are you getting this muck about the RSA from? You do know that they are both Grade Ones, worth pretty much the same money and wait for it here is the important bit.... run over different distances!

    And just as it was with Epatante, what was beaten is largely irrelevant, it is the manner of the victory and the ease of victory and the turn of foot when the button is pressed that is impressive. Sometimes you simply have to trust your eyes.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    The Marsh Plate is a glorified plate, it is not a cup race.

    Connections are chickening out, the RSA is the one to win.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭zpehtsfd


    Monkfish cut to 7/2 on BF for the RSA. :o

    Feels like everyone is lumping on the novice chase treble. :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    zpehtsfd wrote: »
    Monkfish cut to 7/2 on BF for the RSA. :o

    Feels like everyone is lumping on the novice chase treble. :cool:

    Lovely, i'm on at 10s!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    altior into 6s now.....

    they will be 4/1 fav , him and chacun pour soi , after he wins the tingle creek on saturday , hopefully!!!!!!!!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    The Marsh Plate is a glorified plate, it is not a cup race.

    Connections are chickening out, the RSA is the one to win.

    I am sorry but yes you can crab on the form if you like, there is zero substance to it but each to their own and all that. But the suggestion that going over 2m 4f instead of 3m is 'chickening out' is without question the stupidest thing I have heard you come out with, an achievement in itself considering the Arkle and Asterion Forlonge references earlier :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    akelly02 wrote: »
    altior into 6s now.....

    they will be 4/1 fav , him and chacun pour soi , after he wins the tingle creek on saturday , hopefully!!!!!!!!!!!

    An 11 year old and a sick note, be plenty of value to be had further down the betting one would imagine.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    An 11 year old and a sick note, be plenty of value to be had further down the betting one would imagine.



    Kauto star didnt mind turning 12 a few days later when he won his 5th king george.

    altior will prove on saturday he hasnt lost it , so for me the value lies with him.

    has been trimmed from 8s to 6s without running , so expect another clipping on saturday


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    akelly02 wrote: »
    Kauto star didnt mind turning 12 a few days later when he won his 5th king george.

    altior will prove on saturday he hasnt lost it , so for me the value lies with him.

    has been trimmed from 8s to 6s without running , so expect another clipping on saturday

    I certainly wouldn't dismiss him but its a hell of an ask and 6/1 is not value and anything shorter would definitely represent bad value.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    I certainly wouldn't dismiss him but its a hell of an ask and 6/1 is not value and anything shorter would definitely represent bad value.



    my confidence is mainly sue to a lack of viable alternatives, weak division


  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Coneygree


    akelly02 wrote: »
    my confidence is mainly sue to a lack of viable alternatives, weak division

    Did you get on the Tingle Creek/March double a few weeks back? Still 14/1 on 365.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Coneygree wrote: »
    Did you get on the Tingle Creek/March double a few weeks back? Still 14/1 on 365.

    no , but the brother has

    my interest is singles and one big treble of

    shishkin arkle 3/1
    epatante champ hurdle 7/2
    altior champion chase 8/1


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  • Registered Users Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Plasandrunt


    Added N'Golo any race @ 16s and Benie Des Deiux @ 8s for the Mares chase today.

    Also attempted a rollup with Leicester at home at Fulham/Ferny Hollow Supreme double. Leicester 2-0 down at half time....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭del roy


    Hope this is not too much, too heavy. YESTERDAY MORNING.

    Champion Chase

    In the two-mile division, the Shloer Chase at Cheltenham went the way of last season’s brave Arkle winner, Put The Kettle On, who outstayed the free-rolling Duc Des Genievres up the hill in a race where Defi Du Seuil was a huge disappointment, stopping quickly after three out. There are clearly still big issues with Philip Hobbs’ talented chaser, but even though he’s out to 20/1 in places, he did travel and jump well on the whole in that race up until the closing stages, so if Hobbs can find the key to him and work out what’s ailing him, he’s still a player in this division and I’ll be keeping a close eye. That’s because the strength in depth is simply not there – while Henry De Bromhead’s mare is admirable, a good jumper and a brave battler up the hill, there are giant holes to be picked in the Arkle form and the form of this race, so if she were to win the Champion Chase, I would be extremely surprised on a form basis.



    Chacun Pour Soi and Altior head the market at the time of writing and I would be stunned if either of them were beaten by Put The Kettle On come March. Clearly, that comes with the proviso of ‘with a run’ because the former is, while very talented, made of glass and the latter is rising 11 coming off his most tricky season so far. If those worries weren’t there and we were basing this on ability and form alone, I would say that the 7/1 available on Altior is a loopy price for a horse who could turn up in the Tingle Creek this weekend and hose up, instantly being shortened into about 2/1 for the Champion Chase. I feel like we forget that this is a horse that’s only been beaten once over obstacles – by the aforementioned highest-rated horse in training and over a trip that suited his opponent far more than it did him. We also forget that he came back and easily took care of a field of 160-chasers at Newbury in the Game Spirit afterwards and the racing post comment after the race was: “it would be folly to assume any horse other than he is the one to beat come March”.



    Although we haven’t seen him out yet, I have seen nothing in this division that suggests to me that a changing of the guard is ready to occur. Rouge Vif was impressive on good ground in a handicap at Cheltenham, but he’ll have to step up again on that to challenge in this, while of course we haven’t seen Chacun Pour Soi yet, but being beaten by A Plus Tard over 2m last season doesn’t suggest he’s the one to usurp Altior either. Of course, he does have to beat Politologue, who was an excellent winner of this last season, but he’s 3-0 against that rival as it stands. Perhaps it falls to Politologue’s stablemate Greaneteen to improve enough to challenge Altior, but he is often talked about by his trainer Paul Nicholls, as needing an extra half mile sooner rather than later, so there’s every chance he’ll end up in the Ryanair if he goes to Cheltenham – we’ll see if the pair face off in the Tingle Creek!



    I think this is the right moment to make the bet, as the Tingle Creek could change the market completely and render this 7/1 a distant dream. Backing him each-way is the shrewd thing to do when you consider his age and his potential for declining slightly, but he’s been there, he’s done it and apart from one blip (if you can even call it that given Cyrname’s achievements!), there is very little quantifiable reason to believe that Altior won’t come back pretty much as good as he was. If he does, he’s simply the best horse in the race and to have that level of simplicity in a market at this time of year is a blessing. Now we cross our fingers that his spin around Sandown Park is as good as it could be and then we can get that cotton wool ready for him before he presumably heads to the Game Spirit again after that.



    bettrends advice:
    Queen Mother Champion Chase – ALTIOR 1pt E/W @ 7/1 (bet365)


  • Registered Users Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Plasandrunt


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Will certainly be one of interest, considering his last win on the flat and at the time Mullins said that he had schooled over hurldes and was a sound jumper.

    That was nearly two years ago though, was there a problem?

    Entered up in Navan on Saturday in a 2m maiden hurdle.

    Will back him for the Supreme once he's declared


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    Added N'Golo any race @ 16s and Benie Des Deiux @ 8s for the Mares chase today.

    Also attempted a rollup with Leicester at home at Fulham/Ferny Hollow Supreme double. Leicester 2-0 down at half time....

    Benie DD going for the chase, is that the word?


  • Registered Users Posts: 858 ✭✭✭Plasandrunt


    Mullins Bingo obviously but the market move hard to ignore with cashout available, especially since she's now 5s in places


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    Mullins Bingo obviously but the market move hard to ignore with cashout available, especially since she's now 5s in places

    Interesting, race looks made for her and probably wants to avoid Honeysuckle again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Slattsy wrote: »
    Interesting, race looks made for her and probably wants to avoid Honeysuckle again.

    Surely if Honeysuckle wins over Christmas then She has to take here chance in the Champion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,172 ✭✭✭NaiveMelodies


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Surely if Honeysuckle wins over Christmas then She has to take here chance in the Champion?

    Might be hard for them to turn down a penalty kick at Cheltenham.
    Would love to see her up against Epatante at some stage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    I reckon de brom head will skip the champion with honeysuckle


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    He skipped it last year, he'll skip it again.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭EICVD


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    The Marsh Plate is a glorified plate, it is not a cup race.

    Connections are chickening out, the RSA is the one to win.

    How many RSA winners never seem to show their true potential after winning it? If you genuinely believe you’ve a future gold cup winner you go for the Marsh for the horses longevity.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    EICVD wrote: »
    How many RSA winners never seem to show their true potential after winning it? If you genuinely believe you’ve a future gold cup winner you go for the Marsh for the horses longevity.

    How many of these won a Gold Cup ?

    2011 Noble Prince
    2012 Sir Des Champs
    2013 Benefficient
    2014 Taquin du Seuil
    2015 Vautour
    2016 Black Hercules
    2017 Yorkhill
    2018 Shattered Love
    2019 Defi du Seuil
    2020 Samcro


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭RivetingRoger


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Surely if Honeysuckle wins over Christmas then She has to take here chance in the Champion?

    No
    Why would she?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭RivetingRoger


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    How many of these won a Gold Cup ?

    2011 Noble Prince
    2012 Sir Des Champs
    2013 Benefficient
    2014 Taquin du Seuil
    2015 Vautour
    2016 Black Hercules
    2017 Yorkhill
    2018 Shattered Love
    2019 Defi du Seuil
    2020 Samcro

    Vautour WOULD


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,016 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    aidankkk wrote: »
    Some lads have short memories, he'll be available at bigger than evens on the day. Save your money until then, his chance of not getting there is far more significant that the difference between the price he is now and the price he will be in march.

    Short memories? Have you blacked out your short-term memory? The idea that "they rarely go off odds on" is a decade outdated. There were 6 odds on shots last year.

    In the novice chases in recent years we've had Altior go off 2/9, Simonsig 4/11, Douvan 1/4. Vautour went off evens in this race despite completely flopping on his prep race. EA was a best priced 4/5 on the day last year, with a good few nice unexposed types up against and a lot more question marks by his name. There's absolutely zero chance he's available on the day at anywhere near evens if he goes there undefeated.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Vautour WOULD

    Beaten in a King George , he would never have got the trip.

    That's why he ran in the Ryanair, another plate race.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    No
    Why would she?

    Well if She has beaten all the boys this side of the water, then what's left to beat over the other side outside of Epatante, Epatante has more speed but Honeysuckle has more grit, would be a fascinating race.

    Are you saying She is not good enough? On official ratings She is currently 3lbs off Epatante and the same 3lbs off what Annie Power was going into her Champion Hurdle. She is fifth favourite in a race lacking any depth and if She were to beat two of those ahead of her in the betting at Christmas then it would seem a logical move.

    She has already won an Irish Champion and a Hattons Grace, I am not talking about running a nag here, and when will De Bromhead have another Champion Hurdle horse?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Beaten in a King George , he would never have got the trip.

    That's why he ran in the Ryanair, another plate race.

    Are you know trying to crab on Vatour?

    You are on fire this week :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭carq


    Entered up in Navan on Saturday in a 2m maiden hurdle.

    Will back him for the Supreme once he's declared

    What horse is this?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Well if She has beaten all the boys this side of the water, then what's left to beat over the other side outside of Epatante, Epatante has more speed but Honeysuckle has more grit, would be a fascinating race.

    Are you saying She is not good enough? On official ratings She is currently 3lbs off Epatante and the same 3lbs off what Annie Power was going into her Champion Hurdle. She is fifth favourite in a race lacking any depth and if She were to beat two of those ahead of her in the betting at Christmas then it would seem a logical move.

    She has already won an Irish Champion and a Hattons Grace, I am not talking about running a nag here, and when will De Bromhead have another Champion Hurdle horse?




    i hope she doesnt go , she is a medium sized threat to epatante in my opinion


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Are you know trying to crab on Vatour?

    You are on fire this week :D

    Is that the horse that couldn't beat God's Own, Ted Veale or Cue Card? ( or Clarcam )

    It won the weakest renewal of a Supreme Novice in 20 years?

    A return of 4 quid over 15 races, hardly a punters dream?

    Especially at Aintree when " the aeroplane " fell on his hole at 1/5 ... lovely stuff. He managed to drive it home at Punchestown at 4/9 , just in case his fans were not watching the first time. 1/4 when Clarcam bet him, and Ted Veale.

    Overhyped in one of the weakest divisions for a decade. The handiest supreme novice in years. nothing came out of it, except for Wicklow Brave which never got the credit it deserved.

    For the record Vautour returned 4 quid in 15 races. Wicklow Brave returned 22 and ran well over 50 times, what a servant, won an Irish Champion hurdle and a St leger. Different class.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,217 ✭✭✭Justin10


    carq wrote: »
    What horse is this?

    Micro Manage


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Is that the horse that couldn't beat God's Own, Ted Veale or Cue Card? ( or Clarcam )

    It won the weakest renewal of a Supreme Novice in 20 years?

    A return of 4 quid over 15 races, hardly a punters dream?

    Especially at Aintree when " the aeroplane " fell on his hole at 1/5 ... lovely stuff. He managed to drive it home at Punchestown at 4/9 , just in case his fans were not watching the first time. 1/4 when Clarcam bet him, and Ted Veale.

    Overhyped in one of the weakest divisions for a decade. The handiest supreme novice in years. nothing came out of it, except for Wicklow Brave which never got the credit it deserved.

    For the record Vautour returned 4 quid in 15 races. Wicklow Brave returned 22 and ran well over 50 times, what a servant, won an Irish Champion hurdle and a St leger. Different class.

    I think you are brilliant, please don't stop posting. I would also love to be your bookie :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    I think you are brilliant, please don't stop posting. I would also love to be your bookie :D

    Over hyped, you have to see the wood from the trees.

    4 quid from 15 races is appalling. That horse was a bookies dream.

    I have not mentioned the 100,000's they won on his Gold Cup AP bets.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    akelly02 wrote: »
    i hope she doesnt go , she is a medium sized threat to epatante in my opinion

    Yeah, I don't think She will but the question will have to be asked and it will be considered.

    I don't think She would beat Epatante over 2m but it would be no forgone conclusion.

    My original point is moot anyhow as I read this morning that She wont be going to Leopardstown over the Christmas and will go straight to the DRF and then Cheltenham.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Over hyped, you have to see the wood from the trees.

    4 quid from 15 races is appalling. That horse was a bookies dream.

    I have not mentioned the 100,000's they won on his Gold Cup AP bets.....

    The fact that you use returns from bookies as your metric for rating horses says it all really.

    I would prefer to class the horse as a three time festival winner - all Grade Ones - a 176 OR Chaser and a 158 rated Novice Hurdler. He also gave one of the single most breathtaking performance seen in the festival. No horse came within 6 lengths of him in three Grade One races at the festival.

    You seem to be all about the money, so how about over £600k in winnings!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    The fact that you use returns from bookies as your metric for rating horses says it all really.

    I would prefer to class the horse as a three time festival winner - all Grade Ones - a 176 OR Chaser and a 158 rated Novice Hurdler. He also gave one of the single most breathtaking performance seen in the festival. No horse came within 6 lengths of him in three Grade One races at the festival.

    You seem to be all about the money, so how about over £600k in winnings!

    It is a good job Cry Baby has buckets of cash.

    He has one out today with Venetia Willams at Haydock.

    He is a rip off merchant, did all his customers for millions a few seasons ago... when he didn't want to play anymore.

    Vautour overhyped, bet nothing of any significance, was a bookies dream. A return of 4 quid over 15, just enough to squander on the next race ands not enough to spend anywhere else. He only won 4 grade 1, a lot more horses have won a lot more grade 1's and a lot more money for punters.

    Just saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    Pogue eile wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't think She will but the question will have to be asked and it will be considered.

    I don't think She would beat Epatante over 2m but it would be no forgone conclusion.

    My original point is moot anyhow as I read this morning that She wont be going to Leopardstown over the Christmas and will go straight to the DRF and then Cheltenham.



    shes not running in the irish champion?

    whats the DRF?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭del roy


    Dublin Racing Festival

    Leopardstown


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,135 ✭✭✭akelly02


    del roy wrote: »
    Dublin Racing Festival

    Leopardstown



    Thanks del


    i think it would be foolish to steer away from a penalty kick in the mares, lets be real , she has concertista to beat.

    2 and a half is her trip anyway


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