Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

AbusesToilets · 20-10-2019 1:46am

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Private ownership of provinces? Seriously? As I said, I see the need to fine tune and amend certain set-ups but leaving the jackals in to run and own clubs would be a really really bad idea.

You do know that all but one or two Premiership clubs per year generally lose money hand over fist. Two years ago, some of these privately owned clubs were losing between 2 and 8 million per year. When those owners lose interest or the game takes a dive in popularity and the turnover dries up, those clubs are utterly fücked. At least the provinces and national team are properly managed financially as is.

Private ownership would destroy Irish rugby, period. Let's make changes or tighten policies but the nuclear route is not something that should or ever will happen.

I'm well aware of the ills suffered by the Premiership, their model isn't sustainable imo. For rugby to actually generate profit, there needs to be a pan Euro league. With franchises most likely, ala the NFL.

The point I was making with respect to central contracts , is that they contribute to a conservative selection policy. A coach is going to feel pressure to pick the guy on one over the guy who isn't. The IRFU should look at how they handle them, to facilitate more competition in the squad and incentivise success.

Donnielighto · 20-10-2019 1:54am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Not sure how true that is. Other nations seem to manage alright. There's a balance to be struck certainly. If CVC manage to consolidate their rugby holdings and pull off a B&I league, or greater, I could see some form of private ownership being the price for entry for the Provinces.

A lot of the friction between Premier League and the RFU comes from the demands of the national team. Moving the 6Ns til after the league finishes would help remove that obstacle.

Less gerrymandering at the club level and more professionalism with respect to finances need not be a bad thing if done correctly.

CVC will raid the competition of cash and push player welfare to the side after a few years. They are a business who intend to make money. If the national unions lose control we'll see an improvement in the short term but the soul and the control gone down the line. The ownership of these competitions should be kept within the control of the player base and club members within the unions, that's all levels of clubs.

CVC won't be more professional in looking after players, they will look after investors with the players as assets. I trust the unions to look after the longer term health of the game better because they will be staffed by a large portion of rugby men and women along with the needed outside admin.

It's not the national team or the professional leagues alone that need to be looked after, the amateur does too and CVC will not care about that and even if they are tied to funnelling cash downwards if they gain control of the leagues or the Six nation's that cash will be negotiated down.

CVC and the like would be selling the soul of the game and it doesnt need that, there's enough money in the game, here at least.

I'd be fine with moving the 6 nation's and redoing the calendar but that could be done at any point.

Donnielighto · 20-10-2019 1:55am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

RoMac and P Harrington are Ireland's greatest sporting successes.

What about Stephen Roche and his questionable recoveries.

riddles · 20-10-2019 3:51am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

'Whiskey' Smith ?

:D:D

I shouldnt be laughing it seems, given that Ireland lost todat. But they idea of her being still classed as a winner is nice. The crazy idea has cheered me up.

The Americans and British have no scruples celebrating people whose achievements on reflection could be considered extremely dubious Carl Lewis, linford Christie, Michael Johnson, and Mo Farrah to take a rather small but significant sample.

blinding · 20-10-2019 5:51am

Donnielighto wrote: »

What about Stephen Roche and his questionable recoveries.

Well cycling , ya know , everybody knows .

Burkie1203 · 20-10-2019 7:47am

Danthemanhere wrote: »

No one ever said there hasn't been young captains. It's just a case of it being beneficial or not. There's no rush, give him a few years, maybe even captain Leinster first.

https://twitter.com/Cumoski/status/1185764123327389697?s=19

Burkie1203 · 20-10-2019 7:47am

Danthemanhere wrote: »

No one ever said there hasn't been young captains. It's just a case of it being beneficial or not. There's no rush, give him a few years, maybe even captain Leinster first.

https://twitter.com/Cumoski/status/1185764123327389697?s=19

20-10-2019 8:16am

What other candidates are there now? I don't really see who else it's going to be tbh.

Danthemanhere · 20-10-2019 8:58am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Cumoski/status/1185764123327389697?s=19

He gave the journalists some copy, quick, make him captain. :pac:

Danthemanhere · 20-10-2019 9:22am

I'm still puzzled as to what our coaching team have been doing for the past year. We were all thinking they must have something up their sleeves, they must be holding things back but no, they literally had nothing. If anything we just went more conservative, completely the wrong approach. It doesn't bode well with Farrell coming in. But questions have to be asked of Schmidt, we were as poorly prepared for this world cup as we have ever been. Our worst defeat ever at a world cup when losing against Japan and then our biggest ever defeat at a world cup when losing to New Zealand.

shootermacg · 20-10-2019 9:32am

Danthemanhere wrote: »

But questions have to be asked of Schmidt, we were as poorly prepared for this world cup as we have ever been. Our worst defeat ever at a world cup when losing against Japan and then our biggest ever defeat at a world cup when losing to New Zealand.

Joe has gone, just let it go... It's this inquest mentality that I hate in the press, but at least they're getting paid.

Danthemanhere · 20-10-2019 9:39am

shootermacg wrote: »

Joe has gone, just let it go... It's this inquest mentality that I hate in the press, but at least they're getting paid.

Why? People spent thousands of euros to go out to Japan following them and they were a rabble. Surely lessons need to be learned, it can't be just brushed over.

bilston · 20-10-2019 9:48am

Danthemanhere wrote: »

He gave the journalists some copy, quick, make him captain. :pac:

Hahaha.

He is potentially favourite, but it shouldn't be because he speaks to journalists!

sydthebeat · 20-10-2019 9:59am

bilston wrote: »

Hahaha.

He is potentially favourite, but it shouldn't be because he speaks to journalists!

Maybe he wears white boots as well.... The horror!!!

Wegians89 · 20-10-2019 10:00am

players I think that will be guaranteed a starting spot post World Cup: Healy, furlong, Ryan, Murray, Sexton. I’d say Sexton will captain the team for a year or two beforecryan takes over

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:08am

shootermacg wrote: »

Joe has gone, just let it go... It's this inquest mentality that I hate in the press, but at least they're getting paid.

The problem is the coaching ticket is unchanged at the core - even with Joe gone.

Important to keep an eye on things

sydthebeat · 20-10-2019 10:12am

JJJackal wrote: »

The problem is the coaching ticket is unchanged at the core - even with Joe gone.

Important to keep an eye on things

Are you suggesting a complete change of coaching ticket???

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:15am

JJJackal wrote: »

The problem is the coaching ticket is unchanged at the core - even with Joe gone.

Important to keep an eye on things

A number of the back grounds coach’s have gone with Joe....

The core was Joe and he is gone so what exactly are you talking about?

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:19am

When you look at the s**t just played by Wales and they are in semi you have to wonder is ireland never going to get to a semi....we never get run of green

mr_edge_to_you · 20-10-2019 10:19am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Central contracts contribute to the problem that continually comes re: selection. They reward past form, rather than incentivise future performances. You get situations where a contracted player is past it, but the pressure is there to pick him because of the cost of his deal. They should be scrapped, and replaced with incentive driven deals, that encourages and rewards good performance.

I think this is an excellent post.

Be under no illusions, the Irish national rugby team is a business and a big one at that - it's essentially one big massive marketing project. Some centrally contracted players are amongst the best paid in Europe. In order to make a return on their investment the IRFU need these guys on the pitch and visible in the media as much as possible. I believe they do this at the expense of developing younger players and a different game.

The semi-final target in RWC2019 was a tangible KPI for the IRFU and they've missed it. So I expect they'll be doing their own review in that regard.

As I said, the national side is one big expensive marketing project. The annual 6 Nations and Autumn tests are the cashcows that keep the wheels greased. Unless the IRFU are prepared to give young guys opportunities to compete against the top sides in these meaningful windows, we'll never go past a quarter final. A central contract can't be a guarantee of a starting 15 jersey. They're now under pressure to perform in the 2020 6N because the world cup was in reality an abject failure. They need bums on seats to pay the bills.

The IRFU need to get a better balance between financial and rugby success. Not an easy task but there's a lot of people earning a lot on money who can sort it out I'm sure.

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:21am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A number of the back grounds coach’s have gone with Joe....

The core was Joe and he is gone so what exactly are you talking about?

Easterby, Murphy and Farrell are staying

Schmidt and Feek are leaving

Who else is leaving?

Danthemanhere · 20-10-2019 10:22am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

When you look at the s**t just played by Wales and they are in semi you have to wonder is ireland never going to get to a semi....we never get run of green

It's not the rub of the green. We were a poorly prepared team that got ripped apart by Japan in this world cup. Luck doesn't come into it.

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:23am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Are you suggesting a complete change of coaching ticket???

Yes, I have always thought Pat Lam would have been the ideal coach to replace Joe Schmidt

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-10-2019 10:23am

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I'm still puzzled as to what our coaching team have been doing for the past year. We were all thinking they must have something up their sleeves, they must be holding things back but no, they literally had nothing.

There is a certain ring of truth to this observation.

And aspect of the Joe Show does always seem to have been never to try to do something different, rather to progress by improving the execution of the same system.

I feel guilty now at such impure thoughts - he isn't even gone a day, and I am starting to question him. ****! That was a cock crowing

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:24am

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

I think this is an excellent post.

Be under no illusions, the Irish national rugby team is a business and a big one at that - it's essentially one big massive marketing project. Some centrally contracted players are amongst the best paid in Europe. In order to make a return on their investment the IRFU need these guys on the pitch and visible in the media as much as possible. I believe they do this at the expense of developing younger players and a different game.

The semi-final target in RWC2019 was a tangible KPI for the IRFU and they've missed it. So I expect they'll be doing their own review in that regard.

As I said, the national side is one big expensive marketing project. The annual 6 Nations and Autumn tests are the cashcows that keep the wheels greased. Unless the IRFU are prepared to give young guys opportunities to compete against the top sides in these meaningful windows, we'll never go past a quarter final. A central contract can't be a guarantee of a starting 15 jersey. They're now under pressure to perform in the 2020 6N because the world cup was in reality an abject failure. They need bums on seats to pay the bills.

The IRFU need to get a better balance between financial and rugby success. Not an easy task but there's a lot of people earning a lot on money who can sort it out I'm sure.

Which young player has not been capped in the last 4 years?

Who was outside the 31 squad who was a shock omission? toner and Marmion, hardly spring chickens

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:26am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Which young player has not been capped in the last 4 years?

Who was outside the 31 squad who was a shock omission? toner and Marmion, hardly spring chickens

Maybe he is referring to the lack of starting minutes players like Joey Carberry, McGrath... had

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:27am

JJJackal wrote: »

Yes, I have always thought Pat Lam would have been the ideal coach to replace Joe Schmidt

Lam didn’t want to wait around and jumped ship to England at the first sign of a few quid....that’s his choice and nobody should complain but how exactly would they take him back?

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:29am

JJJackal wrote: »

Maybe he is referring to the lack of starting minutes players like Joey Carberry, McGrath... had

Carbery has spent much of last 12 months injured

Any time he was due to play he was sidelined....can’t say that’s Joe fault?

Larmour etc all got considerable minutes

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:36am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lam didn’t want to wait around and jumped ship to England at the first sign of a few quid....that’s his choice and nobody should complain but how exactly would they take him back?

You realise he is a good coach with an attractive brand of rugby, you pay him and you bring him back...

Seems simple

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 10:40am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Carbery has spent much of last 12 months injured

Any time he was due to play he was sidelined....can’t say that’s Joe fault?

Larmour etc all got considerable minutes

How many starting minutes have these players including Larmour? Starting a game is different to coming on finishing a game when a game is already won

See out-half situation, has Joey ever got considerable minutes at out half versus a tier 1 nation? If Joey was injured why was there not another out half with more minutes. Carty got how many minutes in 6N?

Have we a second out-half with considerable minutes on board? Carty. The out-half situation was entirely predictable. It happened at the last world cup

ScissorPaperRock · 20-10-2019 10:51am

JJJackal wrote: »

How many starting minutes have these players including Larmour? Starting a game is different to coming on finishing a game when a game is already won

See out-half situation, has Joey ever got considerable minutes at out half versus a tier 1 nation? If Joey was injured why was there not another out half with more minutes. Carty got how many minutes in 6N?

Have we a second out-half with considerable minutes on board? Carty. The out-half situation was entirely predictable. It happened at the last world cup

Well, there was a lot of investment in Paddy Jackson, who really was maturing as a backup to Sexton. That situation wasn't predictable, tbh.

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:57am

JJJackal wrote: »

How many starting minutes have these players including Larmour? Starting a game is different to coming on finishing a game when a game is already won

See out-half situation, has Joey ever got considerable minutes at out half versus a tier 1 nation? If Joey was injured why was there not another out half with more minutes. Carty got how many minutes in 6N?

Have we a second out-half with considerable minutes on board? Carty. The out-half situation was entirely predictable. It happened at the last world cup

Everyone goes back to 10, PJ was given the time at 10....he got a whole tour to himself and then f**ked it up

Carbery was moved to Munster to get minutes at 10 but also minutes with the international 9....between Carbery injuries and Murray loss of form they didn't get as many minutes.

Carbery started at 10 v Oz, he was given the minutes. I still believe if Carbery didnt pick up that injury in warm up the WC would have been a lot better. That hit all the plans

Carty, well I am choosing not to comment:P

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 11:02am

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Well, there was a lot of investment in Paddy Jackson, who really was maturing as a backup to Sexton. That situation wasn't predictable, tbh.

The PJ debate I wont start again lol

awec · 20-10-2019 11:06am

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

JJJackal · 20-10-2019 11:08am

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

I think the spine of the team were on a downward spiral due to age, recurrent injuries...

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 11:19am

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

The u20 just won a Grand Slam, the work done by Joe and Nucifora at underage level is providing "better, faster, stronger" players :P

You have the likes of Carbery, Larmour, Ryan coming out along with loads of others. All the provinces seem to have good options coming up from the u20.

The future has never looked so bright.....

I do think the IRFU needs to step up pressure on the provinces in terms of promoting young players.......

Wegians89 · 20-10-2019 11:39am

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

All four provinces are showing positive signs recently. If Larkham adds exciting attacking ability to Munster all four provinces will be playing exciting rugby. There is a constant stream of very talented young players coming through the Irish u20 and breaking through to pro14 level.

While the coaching team hasn’t been completely changed, any change at all can spark something new and rejuvenate current international players. The future is not as bleak as many are making it out to be.

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 11:46am

Wegians89 wrote: »

All four provinces are showing positive signs recently. If Larkham adds exciting attacking ability to Munster all four provinces will be playing exciting rugby. There is a constant stream of very talented young players coming through the Irish u20 and breaking through to pro14 level.

While the coaching team hasn’t been completely changed, any change at all can spark something new and rejuvenate current international players. The future is not as bleak as many are making it out to be.

The push to promote player to senior team in Pro14 has to be made

Playing a full strength team with internationals at home in pro 14 when the opposition is playing their B team doesn’t make any sense......

realhorrorshow · 20-10-2019 12:05pm

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

I would argue that there's plenty we could change, particularly in regards to our attacking structure. Not saying it should happen but just by picking Craig Casey we could completely change the way we attack.

I'd have to wonder about our S & C regime. We had the ability to manage our players' workloads for the last 4 years and yet we didn't seem to be in particularly great shape relative to other teams.

PhlegmyMoses · 20-10-2019 12:10pm

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

The problem remains largely the same though. We never added a fully fledged attacking plan to our solid defensive structure. We are too regimented and struggle to adapt to different styles. We are close to incapable of turning the tide in a game against a top team as a result. The defence is there, but we need Farrell to add a top class attacking plan. The big worry is whether we think he is the man to do it

Idbatterim · 20-10-2019 12:18pm

I read a good quote yesterday about Ireland’s play, “paralysis by analysis” ...

ScrubsfanChris · 20-10-2019 1:10pm

https://twitter.com/SimonZebo/status/1185888543127810050?s=19

Faugheen · 20-10-2019 1:12pm

He’s clearly taking the piss there but you just know he’s desperate to be exception to the rule.

Clegg · 20-10-2019 1:16pm

We have the basis of a good side if we loosen the strait jacket a bit. I'd build the side around Ringrose and what he can do with ball in hand. He has genuine world class ability in attack. Get guys like Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale running support lines off him and we have the core of a very good backline.

It would also require us to be more flexible up front. Less rucking and deliberate one out runners. More linking and quick pick and goes.

awec · 20-10-2019 1:17pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The problem remains largely the same though. We never added a fully fledged attacking plan to our solid defensive structure. We are too regimented and struggle to adapt to different styles. We are close to incapable of turning the tide in a game against a top team as a result. The defence is there, but we need Farrell to add a top class attacking plan. The big worry is whether we think he is the man to do it

We need to learn how to offload.

This myth that you can’t or shouldn’t offload in test rugby has been well and truly busted.

PhlegmyMoses · 20-10-2019 1:28pm

awec wrote: »

We need to learn how to offload.

This myth that you can’t or shouldn’t offload in test rugby has been well and truly busted.

Yep. The last two world cups should tell us that fortune favours the brave. And I feel like we have players that can play that type of heads up rugby. Carbery, Larmour, Ringrose, Henderson, Ryan, Furlong, VDF, Aki, Conan (maybe even Lowe coming in) all have that ability. Be class if Stander could add it. He commits so many players and keeping them guessing would be such an added element to his game.

TheCitizen · 20-10-2019 1:32pm

Japan put in their place by South Africa. An absolute shambles that Ireland didn’t turn up and lost to that outfit. Losing to New Zealand was expected, losing to Japan was an utter disgrace

Niallof9 · 20-10-2019 1:53pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Japan put in their place by South Africa. An absolute shambles that Ireland didn’t turn up and lost to that outfit. Losing to New Zealand was expected, losing to Japan was an utter disgrace

Exactly and it’s the reason people are angry. It’s not just getting hammered to New Zealand it’s not beating Japan. We suddenly have people saying sure look, Japan are very good etc. utter nonsense and it’s dangerous self defeating talk. Least in the past losing to the lesser teams always hurt. They’ve escaped Scott free with that result.

And the offloads thing, nz had 16 to our 2. You’ll have Gordon Darcy and the like saying it’s genetics but I had a look at nz training photos and they are doing the pop pass from deck drill most of us who’ve played will have done st some stage. I did it since I was 8 up to ail level.

It really was a disgraceful enough performance looked at as sporting critique. Nothing personal but these lads are well payed pros living the dream and criticism is part and parcel of sport in any country and at any level. as a whole they r getting away with it. I feel for the players and I know they accept that it’s not good enough. But Brendan fanning made a good point about Sexton talking about the negativity angle, worrying maybe it’s denial?

But Irfu and Vodafone, and mike Ross all saying be gentle it’s the competing that counts. Dangerous talk. Luckily for us Leinster don’t buy into such ****e. Hopefully Farrell brings a new edge. He has to or the jig is up.

ionadnapokot · 20-10-2019 2:07pm

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

I feel the same

I’d imagine everyone of the players will want to make amends for the non-performance.

But should they be afforded that opportunity?

4 years is too far away for many of the squad. Yet the remains of that senior group are contracted to 2021.

Should Andy Farrell and Catt phase these players out now, after next 6N or have to keep them around until 2021?

Personally I would make a clean break with the lads who are unlikely to make WC:
Earls (2021), Sexton (2021), Healy (2021)

Persist with PO’M (2021) and Murray (2022)
Bed in a new leadership group and establish alternatives to Sexton and Murray.

blinding · 20-10-2019 2:14pm

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I'm still puzzled as to what our coaching team have been doing for the past year. We were all thinking they must have something up their sleeves, they must be holding things back but no, they literally had nothing. If anything we just went more conservative, completely the wrong approach. It doesn't bode well with Farrell coming in. But questions have to be asked of Schmidt, we were as poorly prepared for this world cup as we have ever been. Our worst defeat ever at a world cup when losing against Japan and then our biggest ever defeat at a world cup when losing to New Zealand.

Farrell had a disastrous world cup with England and a very bad world cup with Ireland . Is he the answer . Will be under pressure to start well , as he should be .

Does it occur to Ireland that World rugby is going to favour attacking Rugby at their show piece tournament and that having an attacking side to the game may well be helpful at world cups .

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Comments