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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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ScrubsfanChris

https://twitter.com/SimonZebo/status/1185888543127810050?s=19

Faugheen

He’s clearly taking the piss there but you just know he’s desperate to be exception to the rule.

Clegg

We have the basis of a good side if we loosen the strait jacket a bit. I'd build the side around Ringrose and what he can do with ball in hand. He has genuine world class ability in attack. Get guys like Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale running support lines off him and we have the core of a very good backline.

It would also require us to be more flexible up front. Less rucking and deliberate one out runners. More linking and quick pick and goes.

awec

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The problem remains largely the same though. We never added a fully fledged attacking plan to our solid defensive structure. We are too regimented and struggle to adapt to different styles. We are close to incapable of turning the tide in a game against a top team as a result. The defence is there, but we need Farrell to add a top class attacking plan. The big worry is whether we think he is the man to do it

We need to learn how to offload.

This myth that you can’t or shouldn’t offload in test rugby has been well and truly busted.

PhlegmyMoses

awec wrote: »

We need to learn how to offload.

This myth that you can’t or shouldn’t offload in test rugby has been well and truly busted.

Yep. The last two world cups should tell us that fortune favours the brave. And I feel like we have players that can play that type of heads up rugby. Carbery, Larmour, Ringrose, Henderson, Ryan, Furlong, VDF, Aki, Conan (maybe even Lowe coming in) all have that ability. Be class if Stander could add it. He commits so many players and keeping them guessing would be such an added element to his game.

TheCitizen

Japan put in their place by South Africa. An absolute shambles that Ireland didn’t turn up and lost to that outfit. Losing to New Zealand was expected, losing to Japan was an utter disgrace

Niallof9

TheCitizen wrote: »

Japan put in their place by South Africa. An absolute shambles that Ireland didn’t turn up and lost to that outfit. Losing to New Zealand was expected, losing to Japan was an utter disgrace

Exactly and it’s the reason people are angry. It’s not just getting hammered to New Zealand it’s not beating Japan. We suddenly have people saying sure look, Japan are very good etc. utter nonsense and it’s dangerous self defeating talk. Least in the past losing to the lesser teams always hurt. They’ve escaped Scott free with that result.

And the offloads thing, nz had 16 to our 2. You’ll have Gordon Darcy and the like saying it’s genetics but I had a look at nz training photos and they are doing the pop pass from deck drill most of us who’ve played will have done st some stage. I did it since I was 8 up to ail level.

It really was a disgraceful enough performance looked at as sporting critique. Nothing personal but these lads are well payed pros living the dream and criticism is part and parcel of sport in any country and at any level. as a whole they r getting away with it. I feel for the players and I know they accept that it’s not good enough. But Brendan fanning made a good point about Sexton talking about the negativity angle, worrying maybe it’s denial?

But Irfu and Vodafone, and mike Ross all saying be gentle it’s the competing that counts. Dangerous talk. Luckily for us Leinster don’t buy into such ****e. Hopefully Farrell brings a new edge. He has to or the jig is up.

ionadnapóca

awec wrote: »

I think this WC exit is even more annoying than 2015. I honestly don't really know where we go from here. What can we change or do differently?

Last time round it was obvious we didn't have the team to do the business. This time round we had the team (for the most part), they were flying at one stage, and then total collapse when it really mattered.

I don't envy Andy Farrell having to dissect the past year trying to figure out where it all went wrong.

I feel the same

I’d imagine everyone of the players will want to make amends for the non-performance.

But should they be afforded that opportunity?

4 years is too far away for many of the squad. Yet the remains of that senior group are contracted to 2021.

Should Andy Farrell and Catt phase these players out now, after next 6N or have to keep them around until 2021?

Personally I would make a clean break with the lads who are unlikely to make WC:
Earls (2021), Sexton (2021), Healy (2021)

Persist with PO’M (2021) and Murray (2022)
Bed in a new leadership group and establish alternatives to Sexton and Murray.

blinding

Danthemanhere wrote: »

I'm still puzzled as to what our coaching team have been doing for the past year. We were all thinking they must have something up their sleeves, they must be holding things back but no, they literally had nothing. If anything we just went more conservative, completely the wrong approach. It doesn't bode well with Farrell coming in. But questions have to be asked of Schmidt, we were as poorly prepared for this world cup as we have ever been. Our worst defeat ever at a world cup when losing against Japan and then our biggest ever defeat at a world cup when losing to New Zealand.

Farrell had a disastrous world cup with England and a very bad world cup with Ireland . Is he the answer . Will be under pressure to start well , as he should be .

Does it occur to Ireland that World rugby is going to favour attacking Rugby at their show piece tournament and that having an attacking side to the game may well be helpful at world cups .

kingofthekong

As disappointing as this world cup has been, On a positive note this is the most talented group of youngsters that I have ever seen in the provinces most of which will be 22-25 by the time the next word cup rolls round.

Its an extremely positive sign and hopefully Farrell and Catt can develop these guys into internationals for 4 years time.

Props:
Milne
Whycherley
Clarkson
Abdeladze
E.O'sullivan
T.o'toole
Aungier

Hooker:
Ronan Kelleher
Dan Sheehan
Dylan Tierney-Martin
Mcburney
Baron

Secondrow:
Jack Dunne
Baird
Charlie Ryan
Ahern
Soroka
Whycherley

Backrow:
Caelan Doris
Scott Penny
Deegan
Jack o'sullivan
Hodnett
Moloney
A. Allison
P. Boyle
Mccann
W. Connors
C. Galllagher
S'obrien

Scrumhalf
Craig Casey
Blade
Patterson
O'sullivan
Kerins
Stafford

outhalf
B. Johnston
H.Byrne
Ben Healy
B. Houston
Lowry
Frawley

Centres
S.arnold
S.french
S.Moore
J.Kelly
C.o'brien
Hume
Hawkshaw
Jimmy O'brien
H.Hyde
Turner

Wingers/Fullback
Keenan
J.Flannery
Lyttle
Kernohan
Wren
A.Sexton
Tommy O'brien

Add some of these guys in with players who we will still have come the next world cup like:

Porter
Furlong
Ringrose
Carbery
Mcgrath
Henshaw
Stockdale
J. Ryan
Dan Leavy
J. Conan
Tadhg Beirne
Bundee Aki
Larmour
Ruddock

etc

I'm gutted about Saturday but this takes some of the sting away as it looks like the team is in good hands gong forward into the next cycle

kingofthekong

Following up with the first post if you lok at englands squad now, these are the ages of those players at the begining of the WC cycle just past:

Sam Underhill
Curry 17yrs
Watson
Cowan Dickie 22yrs
E genge 20yrs
Itoje 20yrs
Ludlam 19yrs
Kyle Sinkler 22yrs
s. uNDERHILL 19yrs
B. Vunipola 22yrs
J. cokanasiga 17yrs
George Ford 22yrs
Farrell . 22yrs
Elliot Daley . 23yrs
Henry Slade 22yrs
J Nowels 22yrs
Anthony Watson . 21yrs

England managed to convert their hugely succesfull u20s teams into what could be world cup success in a few weeks,
But guys around this age group in ireland will hopefully be brought into the team and given more opportunity

One of my biggest critiques of Joe Schmidt was because the team were so structured and regimented it took an extremely long time to integrate new players into the ireland squad

Whereas Eddie brough teenagers onthe argentina tour and backed them and it payed off this world cup

mr_edge_to_you

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Which young player has not been capped in the last 4 years?

Who was outside the 31 squad who was a shock omission? toner and Marmion, hardly spring chickens

We can cap players but it's not developing them. Someonee else referred to the lack of game time given to other young players. Ignoring Carberrys injuries over the last 12 months, we should be rotating players on an ongoing basis as part of the WC cycle. We went into the World Cup with very little cover in certain positions. Ross Byrne and Jack Carty have very limited exposure at international level.

Easiest to explain the issue using Full Back. During the 6N Schmidt acknowledged FB being an issue, so he tried to plug that gap with Henshaw. That was an unmitigated disaster. 12 months ago he should have identified Larmour as the best candidate to cover RK, but they didn't. Come the NZ match, the tone of the discussion about the choice of FB was RK has the experience and has done this before. They chose experience over youth and ambition.

Hooker is another example. We all know Rory Best was going to be pushing it to reach a WC. In fairness to him he did, and did well. 2 years ago we should have been rotating other players in that position. Cronin was always going be the impact sub but instead of giving Scannell experience it was playing Rory Best at all costs.

At this point in time, if the IRFU want to reach a WC semi-final, they need to identify a squad of 45 top quality players now, who will be 33 and under in 2023. They should then put a plan in place with the provinces on how to maximise the development of the 45 players. There should then be a plan at the highest level to ensure that these players all get the right opportunities to play at the highest level. I don't mean that we give less experienced players chances against Italy or whatever tier 2 team we play in Belfast or Limerick in a November series. These guys need to get experience playing against southern hemisphere countries and England/Wales in the 6 Nations.

No player should be untouchable. This week Kearney, Henshaw, Murray, Sexton, Stockdale were all in untouchable territory. As long as they weren't injured they were always going to start ahead of Larmour, Farrell, McGrath, Carberry/Carry and Conway respectively.

Shefwedfan

Faugheen wrote: »

He’s clearly taking the piss there but you just know he’s desperate to be exception to the rule.

If he was so desperate he would still be playing in Ireland

It’s not like they only created the rule for him, he was 100% aware of the rule when he signed for Racing

TeddyTedhead

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

We never added a fully fledged attacking plan to our solid defensive structure.

It's far more complicated than that, we do score plenty of tries actually there is not MUCH wrong with our attack

But I think you hit the nail on the head though, unwittingly..
An attacking PLAN is something we need to NOT have, i.e throw the shackles off, play instinctive heads up and FAR more spontaneously - just like England and NZ do

England will trouble NZ at the weekend without winning, but they are miles ahead of us at the moment
Wales are a strange outfit who have got into a habit of scraping through win after win after win without scoring hardly any tries

Next weekend will be fascinating even without Ireland in there

blinding

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If he was so desperate he would still be playing in Ireland

It’s not like they only created the rule for him, he was 100% aware of the rule when he signed for Racing

Larmour is better than him now anyway .

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

Farrell had a disastrous world cup with England and a very bad world cup with Ireland . Is he the answer . Will be under pressure to start well , as he should be .

Does it occur to Ireland that World rugby is going to favour attacking Rugby at their show piece tournament and that having an attacking side to the game may well be helpful at world cups .

The World Cup comes every 4 years, the main competition for irfu and Farrell record is impressive in that with England and Ireland

Until the season is changed the SH team will have an advantage to the NH team in the World Cup.....

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

Larmour is better than him now anyway .

Of course he is, so people should move on, so should he to be honest, he made the decision so stick to it.....

Shefwedfan

People are going on about position, number 15 and the issues. I don’t know but how many players have been tried at 15 since last WC?

If someone is not good enough, playing them 10 times won’t change that fact. The only one that has stepped up and looked at option at 15 is Kearney, Larmour and Addison

Kearney had a decent WC before the NZ game so he was picked. Yes I would have liked to see Larmour but it’s not like Kearney was playing sh*t.

Addison was flying and again had an injury which ruled him out. So who else was available that people wanted to play?

Carbery is the only other I can think of but because of PJ situation he was back up 10....

Shefwedfan

realhorrorshow wrote: »

I would argue that there's plenty we could change, particularly in regards to our attacking structure. Not saying it should happen but just by picking Craig Casey we could completely change the way we attack.

I'd have to wonder about our S & C regime. We had the ability to manage our players' workloads for the last 4 years and yet we didn't seem to be in particularly great shape relative to other teams.

Craig Casey is the future but currently isn’t even in the Munster squad, the irfu should step in....if they don’t want to promote him and give him a chance then move him to another province....

Same can be said for all provinces, young players need to play, we have too small a pool to have young talent wasting away

Happy4all

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yep. The last two world cups should tell us that fortune favours the brave. And I feel like we have players that can play that type of heads up rugby. Carbery, Larmour, Ringrose, Henderson, Ryan, Furlong, VDF, Aki, Conan (maybe even Lowe coming in) all have that ability. Be class if Stander could add it. He commits so many players and keeping them guessing would be such an added element to his game.

Agree. Zebo is that type of player and even if playing on home soil I think he wouldn't have made Joe's squad

bilston

I just hope people give Andy Farrell a chance. I have a feeling that 2020 might prove to be a difficult Six Nations, I also get the sense that some are already quite down on Farrell. England and France away will be tough and Wales at home won't be easy either.

But he needs time and patience. I'd hope it's March 2021 before people start drawing their conclusions on him.

bilston

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Craig Casey is the future but currently isn’t even in the Munster squad, the irfu should step in....if they don’t want to promote him and give him a chance then move him to another province....

Same can be said for all provinces, young players need to play, we have too small a pool to have young talent wasting away

I was wondering about Casey. He has the best pass of any scrum half in Ireland, possibly the best I've ever seen. Crazy to say that about a 19/20 year old, but it is like a bullet. Yeah he's not big, but nor is Faf Dr Clerk and he is a half decent player!

awec

bilston wrote: »

I just hope people give Andy Farrell a chance. I have a feeling that 2020 might prove to be a difficult Six Nations, I also get the sense that some are already quite down on Farrell. England and France away will be tough and Wales at home won't be easy either.

But he needs time and patience. I'd hope it's March 2021 before people start drawing their conclusions on him.

Farrell is the first head coach since Ashton with no career history at a particular province by my reckoning (ignoring his consulting at Munster).

Be interesting to see how that affects the public and media's perception if/when things go south.

Shefwedfan

bilston wrote: »

I was wondering about Casey. He has the best pass of any scrum half in Ireland, possibly the best I've ever seen. Crazy to say that about a 19/20 year old, but it is like a bullet. Yeah he's not big, but nor is Faf Dr Clerk and he is a half decent player!

He doesn’t need to be big, just need a big back row around him....as you say Faf DC is probably the best or second best scrum half and small, very small

Is he even getting a game with Munster A’s?

Shefwedfan

awec wrote: »

Farrell is the first head coach since Ashton with no career history at a particular province by my reckoning (ignoring his consulting at Munster).

Be interesting to see how that affects the public and media's perception if/when things go south.

Some people have it in for Joe because he was Leinster boss, they seem to have carried that on to Farrell for the simple reason he worked with Joe

Ask them for alternative and you get a blank look....

Farrell should be given a chance and see how he goes, some people are already calling for his head which is hight of stupid in my opinion.....

What do you think will be classified as going South? Does Farrell need to win a 6 nations or what?

Faugheen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If he was so desperate he would still be playing in Ireland

It’s not like they only created the rule for him, he was 100% aware of the rule when he signed for Racing

Hence why I said he was desperate to be the exception to the rule...

ClanofLams

Hasty appointment of someone who has never been head coach at any level, has echoes of 2007 decision to give O’Sullvan long term contract. If the shortlist was being made up today, he wouldn’t be close to the top of it.

He has gotten the job so good luck to him but I don’t see it working out.

Faugheen

ClanofLams wrote: »

Hasty appointment of someone who has never been head coach at any level, has echoes of 2007 decision to give O’Sullvan long term contract. If the shortlist was being made up today, he wouldn’t be close to the top of it.

He has gotten the job so good luck to him but I don’t see it working out.

Who should be ahead of him?

ClanofLams

Faugheen wrote: »

Who should be ahead of him?

If you were appointing now? Cullen and Lancaster (as a duo)from Ireland. Outside Ireland would require some consideration and study obviously, off the top of my head maybe Vern Cotter?

Has any country bar England and Martin Johnson appointed someone in the last twenty years who hasn’t been head coach somewhere?

Professor Moriarty

ClanofLams wrote: »

If you were appointing now? Cullen and Lancaster (as a duo)from Ireland. Outside Ireland would require some consideration and study obviously, off the top of my head maybe Vern Cotter?

Has any country bar England and Martin Johnson appointed someone in the last twenty years who hasn’t been head coach somewhere?

Mark McCall.