Shooting in the French Alps

Madam_X · 08-09-2012 12:39pm

seamus wrote: »

Heh, there's no magic formula of "hit once for every hour you want them to forget".

So Ian Fleming lied to me...?! :eek::(

No I'd agree all right with the theory that they didn't intend to kill the little one, just wanted to knock her out. Makes the most sense if it was a planned hit job.

But then again, why kill the cyclist?

Fecking cold, man... :-/

goodie2shoes · 08-09-2012 12:43pm

Pottler wrote: »

Ah, it'll be solved, always is. We might not be informed of the fact though. Mushroom factor might be applied.

it's an uncomfortable fact that many of these execution type murders are NEVER solved and the culprits are never brought to book.

however in this case i really hope 'n pray they get the baaast@*ds!

08-09-2012 3:47pm

The story gets weirder.. the second woman had a Swedish passport and when asked, the 4 year old child couldn't name her and was unfamiliar with who she was. Wonder what her connection to all of this was.

French police are liaising with the Swedish authorities as they try to unravel the mystery of the French Alps shooting .

Saad al-Hilli and his wife Iqbal were shot dead in their BMW on Wednesday during a camping holiday. A third body was also found in the car - an older woman with a Swedish passport who had also been shot at least three times.

Source: Mirror

Pottler · 08-09-2012 10:59pm

All shot multiple times, but significantly, twice to the head. Or as the Army call it, "double tapped". So, a pro.

08-09-2012 11:01pm

It makes the fact that the child was shot once in the shoulder even stranger. If they definitely wanted her dead, they would have shot her in the head too, like they did the adults.

Was she shot in the shoulder? I think that was reported at some point.

Madam_X · 08-09-2012 11:04pm

Yeh she was, in addition to the beating to her head. Medics say it's a miracle she survived.

Pottler · 08-09-2012 11:10pm

Not a top priority for "humane" reasons? Had a go and failed, perhaps deliberatly? Stone cold as anyone might be, everyone draws a line, so maybe shooting to the shoulder was a "boss pleaser" - warped as that might sound, "I tried and missed Boss, sorry about that"??noone is totally cold. Or the kid was at a distance and a three round burst was fired, bracketing the target left, center, right, and only one hit. If it was a short like a 30 round Uzi or HK then once the range goes above "very close", it's a bit of a lottery as to what gets hit and what gets missed. Also, defining "head injuries" is tough, who knows what happened in a paniced situation - you can bash your head pretty good when running in a blind panic and interpretng those injuries afterwards is half a guess at best.

08-09-2012 11:16pm

Madam_X wrote: »

Yeh she was, in addition to the beating to her head. Medics say it's a miracle she survived.

That doesn't necessarily make sense though - why did they beat her around the head, unless it's possible that they ran out of bullets by that time?

And now I realized that I'm talking about why an 8 year old child wasn't shot in the head. I need a cup of tea ..

Whippersnapper · 09-09-2012 12:57am

From The Guardian today:

Swedish authorities have confirmed that a passport discovered on the scene corresponds to a Swedish person living in Sweden, but as yet no absolute connection has been made between the older woman in the car and either the passport or between her and the rest of the victims, the local prosecutor said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police?newsfeed=true

So this woman may not be the owner of the passport?

Also, the two women and the child were in the back of the car while the father was in the driver's seat. That means the 7 year old was in the passenger seat? Is that odd? Surely one of the women would have been seated in the front.

ArmaniJeanss · 09-09-2012 2:29am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

He worked in the aeronautical industry and was born in Baghdad, and seems to have fled Iraq during the last few years of Saddams reign.

'Aeronautical' is often a code word for other things, so possibly a nuclear or weapons scientist?

Seaneh wrote: »

Massive jump in logic there.

UK edition of Sunday Mirror headlining a (very inconclusive) nuclear link.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-nuclear-link-1314562

09-09-2012 10:43am

Yeah.. think I'll wait until it's posted in a more reliable news source than the mirror.

Madam_X · 09-09-2012 10:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

That doesn't necessarily make sense though - why did they beat her around the head, unless it's possible that they ran out of bullets by that time?

Been discussed a good bit. Reckoned they didn't want to kill her, just knock her out/immobilise her. But then, why kill the cyclist though?

And now I realized that I'm talking about why an 8 year old child wasn't shot in the head. I need a cup of tea ..

Heh, I know - f'ucked up world... :-/

enda1 · 09-09-2012 11:15am

Sweeden has a huge Iraqi immigrant population, so I guess this woman will turn out to be simply related to the family. No big surprise the 4 year old couldn't say who the older woman was, she's four and in shock.

09-09-2012 6:48pm

Good news, finally!

The 7 year old girl has been brought out of coma and will be questioned when she's able.

The seven-year-old British girl who survived a gun attack in the French Alps last week that saw her father and mother shot dead in their car is out of a coma and will be questioned by police as soon as she is able.

Source: RTE news

harr · 10-09-2012 9:51am

looking at the news last night they seemed to have a lot of firearm police in and around the house and also i noticed a few major incident fire vans and personal there as well would this be normal in a search of a house,it just seems over the top unless they are looking for something in particular.
This case seems to be throwing up more questions than answers at the moment.

bilston · 10-09-2012 9:58am

harr wrote: »

looking at the news last night they seemed to have a lot of firearm police in and around the house and also i noticed a few major incident fire vans and personal there as well would this be normal in a search of a house,it just seems over the top unless they are looking for something in particular.
This case seems to be throwing up more questions than answers at the moment.

The surrounding area has been evacuated in the last few minutes due to items of concern having been found in the house...the plot thickens...

Local-womanizer · 10-09-2012 10:23am

bilston wrote: »

The surrounding area has been evacuated in the last few minutes due to items of concern having been found in the house...the plot thickens...

Source?

Frank Grimes · 10-09-2012 10:29am

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Source?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19540445

goodie2shoes · 10-09-2012 11:48am

there's a lot more to this guy, than we or his neighbours would imagine.:eek:

MHalberstram · 10-09-2012 11:48am

Sounds like they have found a bomb or explosives at the house. This is getting stranger by the day.

I find it interesting that the media are reporting the French authorities as saying they have no leads and are looking at it from every angle. Yet in almost every report they also say that there is no link to state security issues.

RIGHT....

Mr.Crinklewood · 10-09-2012 11:51am

A neighbour has told Sky that he was al-Hilli was always fixing electronics. Chances are they have found a load of wires, and electronics and haven`t a clue what they are. They are therefore, rightly being cautious.

10-09-2012 11:51am

This story is getting weirder and weirder all the time.

The Press Association reports that the police investigation at the Hillis' house appears to be focusing on a shed or workshop at the bottom of the garden.

The BBC said neighbours told it that the workshop has a system of "elaborate electronic locks"

Source: Guardian

What is in that shed?!!

The Big Red Button · 10-09-2012 11:52am

Whippersnapper wrote: »

Also, the two women and the child were in the back of the car while the father was in the driver's seat. That means the 7 year old was in the passenger seat? Is that odd? Surely one of the women would have been seated in the front.

To be fair, the kid might have been carsick.

I know that, when we travelled long journeys as kids, whoever puked the most tended to get the front seat, while my mam sat in the back-seat and distributed sick-bags amongst everyone else.

Not a pleasant idea, sorry!

But I wouldn't find it odd that the kid was in the passenger seat. It does relieve carsickness, a lot.

10-09-2012 11:53am

BREAKING - BBC reporter: n'bours tell of large workshop in #Claygate garden with elaborate elec locks and several power cables going in...

BREAKING - BBC reporter at scene: "it seems whatever was found today was overlooked/not seen over the weekend" #Claygate

they've been at that house since the family were murdered and yet only this morning they discovered cables and wires running into workshop...

:rolleyes:

10-09-2012 11:55am

Jake1 wrote: »

BREAKING - BBC reporter: n'bours tell of large workshop in #Claygate garden with elaborate elec locks and several power cables going in...

BREAKING - BBC reporter at scene: "it seems whatever was found today was overlooked/not seen over the weekend" #Claygate

they've been at that house since the family were murdered and yet only this morning they discovered cables and wires running into workshop...

:rolleyes:

Considering they're likely doing a thorough sweep, then it's understandable that it took this long.

goodie2shoes · 10-09-2012 12:13pm

Jake1 wrote: »

BREAKING - BBC reporter: n'bours tell of large workshop in #Claygate garden with elaborate elec locks and several power cables going in...

BREAKING - BBC reporter at scene: "it seems whatever was found today was overlooked/not seen over the weekend" #Claygate

they've been at that house since the family were murdered and yet only this morning they discovered cables and wires running into workshop...

:rolleyes:

this guy might have been constructing a "dirty" bomb in his back garden for all we know.
it's looking increasingly probable that this "hit" was the work of spooks. (personally i think the family-feud line was thrown out for public consumption).
might be Mossad, might be Al Qaeda, Iranians? M15? who knows? most likely we may NEVER really know.

when the 'er "truth" eventually emerges, it will have a spin put on it to protect/facilitate the dark forces.

Johnnio13 · 10-09-2012 12:20pm

it has all the hallmarks of a professional assination. I've seen the movie. Double-tap to the head. SAS?

10-09-2012 12:23pm

Guardian now reporting that the corden has been removed and the threat neutralized.

The extended corden outside the house has been removed and bomb disposal officers have left the property suggesting that the threat is over, Shiv Malik, on the scene, says.

seamus · 10-09-2012 12:25pm

Johnnio13 wrote: »

it has all the hallmarks of a professional assination. I've seen the movie. Double-tap to the head. SAS?

SAS? No, they're highly trained but they're legit so wouldn't be used in this case if it is black ops stuff.
If there is anything interesting in that shed it will probably raise more questions than it answers.

If it was black ops, then someone has fncked up royally by letting it become international news and having the standard police forces involved.

Mr.Crinklewood · 10-09-2012 12:27pm

I`d guess if this was a black ops job, that it would have been a tragic accident or something along those lines.

Something that the media would get bored with after a while.

10-09-2012 12:32pm

Press are now allowed out the front of the house.

Source: Guardian live updates

MHalberstram · 10-09-2012 12:41pm

from skynews

Police officer Benoit Vinneman told reporters the crime scene is being re-examined, and it would be wrong to focus on the theory of an "ordered execution".

"Is this the work of a crazy person? Was the family the real target? Only work based on complete information can help us to see things clearly," he said.

So by his own logic it would also be wrong not to consider an "ordered execution".

Yet every news article I've read suggests the authorities are dismissing a "professional hit" while at the same time stating they can't rule out every other possibility.

Hmmmm the doth protest too much methinks.

asherbassad · 10-09-2012 12:47pm

Blay wrote: »

I'm suprised RTDH hasn't been over to claim it was a US sponsored Mossad false flag attack to cover up the Illuminati or some crap:pac:

Well she was beaten over the head so the attackers must have been certain she was dead before they left, she was presumably unconscious and woke up and ran.

It's not a stretch to think it was Mossad or some other intelligence agency. There's no way that this was a random nutjob. Random lunatics kill and wound in spectacularly wild fashion. They usually take out as many as they can and then turn the gun on themselves or are killed/apprehended. They don't clinically kill everyone to eliminate witnesses and then disappear.

The victim was an Iraqi. The bomb squad is currently searching his house because of an explosives lab they found there. Now that would suggest that the guy was under surveillance. That being the case then all fingers point to a professional assassination by a government agency. Some cold, chilling government operative who has no qualms about killing women or children did this. It's gruesome.

asherbassad · 10-09-2012 12:54pm

From Yahoo news regarding the elderly Swedish woman found dead in the car:

"Police had been struggling to identify the elderly woman, and could only confirm she held a Swedish passport."

Can they not fcuking read?

10-09-2012 12:57pm

asherbassad wrote: »

From Yahoo news regarding the elderly Swedish woman found dead in the car:

"Police had been struggling to identify the elderly woman, and could only confirm she held a Swedish passport."

Can they not fcuking read?

Just because she held a Swedish passport doesn't necessarily mean they're Swedish. Remember this case in 2010, where the perpetrators held Irish passports? Doesn't mean they were Irish.

According to the Guardian, the French are now saying that only one weapon was used to kill all 4 people.

MHalberstram · 10-09-2012 12:58pm

asherbassad wrote: »

From Yahoo news regarding the elderly Swedish woman found dead in the car:

"Police had been struggling to identify the elderly woman, and could only confirm she held a Swedish passport."

Can they not fcuking read?

She has been confirmed as the maternal grandmother. I found the delay in formally identifying her odd too.

10-09-2012 1:09pm

It is now being reported that just one gun was used in the 4 killings.

One weapon was used in the slaying of three members of the HIlli family and a French cyclist, French police said today, according to the BBC. A shot from the same gun wounded seven-year old Zainab, who remains in hospital in Grenoble.

goodie2shoes · 10-09-2012 3:01pm

asherbassad wrote: »

It's not a stretch to think it was Mossad or some other intelligence agency. There's no way that this was a random nutjob. Random lunatics kill and wound in spectacularly wild fashion. They usually take out as many as they can and then turn the gun on themselves or are killed/apprehended. They don't clinically kill everyone to eliminate witnesses and then disappear.

The victim was an Iraqi. The bomb squad is currently searching his house because of an explosives lab they found there. Now that would suggest that the guy was under surveillance. That being the case then all fingers point to a professional assassination by a government agency. Some cold, chilling government operative who has no qualms about killing women or children did this. It's gruesome.

he has been under surveillance by British intelligence sine he entered the UK from Iraq. given the times we live in, that in itself would not be surprising.

if i were to hazard a wild guess, i'ld say he was taken out by Mossad probably because he was suspected of passing info of some sort to Iranian security. they would have no compunction if they felt Israeli security was at stake. In fact they would consider it a very small price.

LordSutch · 10-09-2012 11:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It is now being reported that just one gun was used in the 4 killings.

According to RTE news it was a shotgun, but don't shotguns fire pellets instead of bullets?

RTE Nine O'Clock news (Monday Night), press the Play icon, then jump to (12 minutes) just before the Ad break . . .

> http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=10046875

Squarewave · 10-09-2012 11:05pm

LordSutch wrote: »

According to RTE news it was a shotgun, but don't shotguns fire pellets instead of bullets?

RTE Nine O'Clock news (Monday Night), press the Play icon, then jump to (12 minutes) just before the Ad break . . .

> http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=10046875

They can fire slugs too

LordSutch · 10-09-2012 11:10pm

Its just that I haven't heard the word 'Shotgun' used anywhere else in relation to this story.

Have you?

Squarewave · 10-09-2012 11:16pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Its just that I haven't heard the word 'Shotgun' used anywhere else in relation to this story.

Have you?

From a quick google it looks like it was reported early on that a shotgun was used, then it was changed to a semi-automatic pistol. Looks like rte didn't get the memo..

Pottler · 10-09-2012 11:18pm

Shotgun me hole. A slug hitting you anywhere would open you up lke a sardine can and unless it was a military grade rotary repeater firing 00 buckshot you'd need your head examined picking one. Uzi/Ingram/HK. Any money. Or similar. Thicko anyway as he'd only one mag, from what I've seen to date. Also left traces of DNA on the casings. Then sped from the scene, accompanied by his spotter on a bike. Younger, probably 20's, eastern european and probably both dead themselves at this stage. Pure conjecture, but there you go, somtimes conjecture can be accurate. Not even going to comment much on the house search, like a peaceful life, but pretty much par for the course. More recovery than search, perhaps?

Witcher · 10-09-2012 11:20pm

asherbassad wrote: »

It's not a stretch to think it was Mossad or some other intelligence agency.

If you had read my post after that you would have seen that I didn't deny there might have been an intellligence agency involved..I was just taking the piss out of RTDH.

cameramonkey · 10-09-2012 11:21pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/10/french-alps-shootings-single-weapon

7.65 pistol, 25 rounds fired. pretty unusual weapon i would say.

Witcher · 10-09-2012 11:25pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/10/french-alps-shootings-single-weapon

7.65 pistol, 25 rounds fired. pretty unusual weapon i would say.

Wouldn't be too out of the ordinary in France. You can't own 'military calibers' there so people tend to have firearms in calibres that you wouldn't be as popular elsewhere.

cameramonkey · 10-09-2012 11:26pm

Blay wrote: »

Wouldn't be too out of the ordinary in France. You can't own 'military calibers' there so people tend to have firearms in calibres that you wouldn't be as popular elsewhere.

ok,thanks for that.

Pottler · 10-09-2012 11:27pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/10/french-alps-shootings-single-weapon

7.65 pistol, 25 rounds fired. pretty unusual weapon i would say.

Tokarev? eastern european, chambered for 7.65 and poor for accuraccy unless close. Would take 3 mags to fire 25. Also the walther ppk, but they're expensive, even less accurate at range and too odball a choice. Tokarevs are common as muck and reliable.

Witcher · 10-09-2012 11:28pm

Pottler wrote: »

Tokarev? eastern european, chambered for 7.65 and poor for accuraccy unless close. Would take 3 mags to fire 25.

Tokarev is 7.62.

Piste · 10-09-2012 11:31pm

Why do people think Mossad? The only train of thought I can seem to get form this thread is "something something Iraq something something Iran therefore Mossad". Didn't al-Hilli come from Iraq back in the 70s when he was 18? That would make him more British than Iraqi at this stage. And how come nobody seems to be chasing up his wife? She may have secrets to hide. The whole narrative of this bizarre mystery has been completely centred around the one man in the car.

Shooting in the French Alps

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