Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

Bob24 · 01-08-2020 3:12pm

Gatling wrote: »

It's simple ,it's the one thing America gets right get arrested and charged and your illegal or a foreign national you get handed over to immigration for deportation .

This thread is about naturalised citizens though, i.e. neither illegal immigrants nor foreign nationals.

I think a number of people have a deep misunderstanding of how serious a commitment granting someone citizenship is, compared to just handing them a residence card (and this misunderstanding both leads to some people wishing to grant citizenship too easily and others hoping to remove it too easily - even when it is extremely challenging to do in practice).

Timberrrrrrrr · 01-08-2020 3:16pm

Gatling wrote: »

Yes if you can't live within our laws then feck off back to where ever they came from ,

It's simple ,it's the one thing America gets right get arrested and charged and your illegal or a foreign national you get handed over to immigration for deportation .

Why shouldn't every other country do the same

A citizen is neither of these though.

Overheal · 01-08-2020 4:23pm

Gatling wrote: »

Yes if you can't live within our laws then feck off back to where ever they came from ,

It's simple ,it's the one thing America gets right get arrested and charged and your illegal or a foreign national you get handed over to immigration for deportation .

Why shouldn't every other country do the same

We aren’t talking an illegal or foreign National we’re talking a naturalized citizen. And that’s not how we treat naturalized citizens here. I’ve posted the criteria for denaturalization earlier in the thread; unless it’s related to a dishonorable discharge from military service, a rape or murder wouldn't denaturalize you or see you deported.

Gatling · 01-08-2020 5:08pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

A citizen is neither of these though.

Naturalised shouldn't get any protection from deportation following convictions .

Your still a foreign national even if you wave a Irish passport around along with your British , Nigerian, Syrian ones

Overheal · 01-08-2020 5:16pm

Gatling wrote: »

Naturalised shouldn't get any protection from deportation following convictions .

Your still a foreign national even if you wave a Irish passport around along with your British , Nigerian, Syrian ones

You’ve lost me there.

Timberrrrrrrr · 01-08-2020 5:39pm

Overheal wrote: »

You’ve lost me there.

He's basically saying that no matter how long you live in Ireland, if you were not born there then (in his eyes) you will never be considered Irish.

Overheal · 01-08-2020 5:48pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He's basically saying that no matter how long you live in Ireland, if you were not born there then (in his eyes) you will never be considered Irish.

Oh I know what he said I just mean I’m unequivocally opposed to the very idea. Antithetical to the whole notion of citizenship.

Gatling · 01-08-2020 5:51pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He's basically saying that no matter how long you live in Ireland,

Exactly .

Just because you decide to move here it doesn't make you Irish if your born and raised in England your english ,even if you decide to move here ,if your born and raised in Nigeria your Nigerian despite what ever sob used to come here ,the same with any other country .

I know People like to claim they feel Irish after a few weeks here doesn't make it true ,

The rapist in the news is a Nigerian he should be deported immediately from mount joy the night he's due to be released ,

Overheal · 01-08-2020 5:54pm

Gatling wrote: »

Exactly .

Just because you decide to move here it doesn't make you Irish if your born and raised in England your english ,even if you decide to move here ,if your born and raised in Nigeria your Nigerian despite what ever sob used to come here ,the same with any other country .

I know People like to claim they feel Irish after a few weeks here doesn't make it true ,

The rapist in the news is a Nigerian he should be deported immediately from mount joy the night he's due to be released ,

We’re not talking about “here a few weeks” we’re talking about the situation where someone naturalizes and becomes a full Irish citizen. As in the thread title: “ citizenship acquired through naturalisation.”

If he’s a citizen how do you deport a citizen.

Bob24 · 01-08-2020 5:58pm

Gatling wrote: »

Just because you decide to move here it doesn't make you Irish if your born and raised in England your english ,even if you decide to move here ,if your born and raised in Nigeria your Nigerian despite what ever sob used to come here ,the same with any other country .

What makes you Irish though is when the Irish State grants you a certificate of naturalisation. This is what we were talking about here, nothing else.

Mind you, Ireland doesn’t have to naturalise anyone if it doesn’t want to - but once it is done those people are Irish citizens as any other citizen.

Gatling · 01-08-2020 7:12pm

Overheal wrote: »

we’re talking about the situation where someone naturalizes and becomes a full Irish citizen. As in the thread title: “ citizenship acquired through naturalisation.”

If he’s a citizen how do you deport a citizen.

Revoke the naturalisation ,he's then reverts back to his own Nationality and he's deported as soon as he completes his sentence ,as in straight from mountjoy to Lagos no appeals ,
Slán your banned from entering the country permanently

Overheal · 01-08-2020 9:17pm

Gatling wrote: »

Revoke the naturalisation ,he's then reverts back to his own Nationality and he's deported as soon as he completes his sentence ,as in straight from mountjoy to Lagos no appeals ,
Slán your banned from entering the country permanently

So how do you propose codifying this in Irish law? Currently it’s not. Rape, murder etc. is not grounds for denaturalization in Ireland; whatever you write-in to the law will probably need to distinguish between jaywalking and unpaid parking tickets and serial killing.

Donald Trump · 01-08-2020 9:20pm

Gatling wrote: »

Should be a simple case of break laws lose your entitlement to live here ,
Scrap dual nationality a simple fix you shouldn't get to hold multiple Nationalities and hide behind a passport saying I'm Irish now you can't touch me .

That would likely backfire.

The people would revoke their original citizenship which mean you could not then revoke their Irish one.

Donald Trump · 01-08-2020 9:22pm

Darc19 wrote: »

So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.

And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

The UK stripped the citizenship of the jihadi bride Begum.

She was born in the UK, but they stripped it based off the claim that she was also entitled to claim Bangladeshi citizenship through her parents, and thus they could revoke her UK citizenship without leaving her stateless

Donald Trump · 01-08-2020 9:24pm

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.

No. Citizenship is a privilege. If you gain it "arbitrarily" (not as a inherent right), you can also lose it.

Spanish Eyes · 01-08-2020 9:31pm

Tougher rules for gaining citizenship might be warranted, but I don't know what the current criteria are.

I do understand that we require workers here, but is citizenship always the way to go?

Long term visas with leave to remain. Then if you commit a crime your visa is revoked might be an idea. What the F is wrong with that approach could anyone tell me.

Citizenship is a privilege. I know we have our own criminals, but do we we really need to import others forever as Irish Citizens.

1hnr79jr65 · 01-08-2020 9:32pm

I would vote in favor or removing citizenship/naturalization of someone who was not born here fore serious crimes.

To make it work, allow them to retain both nationalities, then if they fault under any of the required crimes, remove their status here and deport them, i wouldn't even wait for them to serve their time. Once conviction has been obtained (with 1 opportunity for appeal) and stuck then exit them on the first plane of their country of origin, don't matter if its a war zone, leper colony or drug farm as jailing them is a further cost to the taxpayer, just get rid of them.

Crimes for consideration - any sex crime against any person of any age, drug dealing, serious drug use (3 strike rule, heroin, cocaine etc.), any form of assault or manslaughter or murder, embezzlement/theft from bank/state institution. For other crimes such where no assault has been carried out such as burglary, petty theft etc then a 3 strike rule applies and deport on conviction of 3rd strike.

I would have no problem with this being applied to any Irish abroad.

Donald Trump · 01-08-2020 9:32pm

Overheal wrote: »

So how do you propose codifying this in Irish law? Currently it’s not. Rape, murder etc. is not grounds for denaturalization in Ireland; whatever you write-in to the law will probably need to distinguish between jaywalking and unpaid parking tickets and serial killing.

The post on page 1 mentions the minister can revoke it for

You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State

I would think that attacking and raping a vulnerable citizen of the nation could fall under the definition of failing in your duty of fidelity towards it!

Let the minister sign it today and they can fuck him out after he gets out of jail

Overheal · 01-08-2020 9:36pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

I would vote in favor or removing citizenship/naturalization of someone who was not born here fore serious crimes.

To make it work, allow them to retain both nationalities, then if they fault under any of the required crimes, remove their status here and deport them, i wouldn't even wait for them to serve their time. Once conviction has been obtained (with 1 opportunity for appeal) and stuck then exit them on the first plane of their country of origin, don't matter if its a war zone, leper colony or drug farm as jailing them is a further cost to the taxpayer, just get rid of them.

Crimes for consideration - any sex crime against any person of any age, drug dealing, serious drug use (3 strike rule, heroin, cocaine etc.), any form of assault or manslaughter or murder, embezzlement/theft from bank/state institution. For other crimes such where no assault has been carried out such as burglary, petty theft etc then a 3 strike rule applies and deport on conviction of 3rd strike.

I would have no problem with this being applied to any Irish abroad.

Doesn’t seem very humane or enlightened. Just sending them into a war zone sounds like cruel and unusual punishment. As for sending a child rapists etc. back loose anywhere in the world, you’re happy to have them rape other children elsewhere so long as it’s not in your backyard?

Spanish Eyes · 01-08-2020 9:36pm

I will probably be banned now by the politically correct police, but I reckon this Nigerian rapist was an asylum seeker. As are many other dubious people who enter our country now, but we are not allowed to say anything anymore.

Bye now, my time is probably up here. Can't say what we think anymore because of the PC police. Will accept my fate, but hope some will be able to see it before it is deleted etc.

Overheal · 01-08-2020 9:37pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I will probably be banned now by the politically correct police, but I reckon this Nigerian rapist was an asylum seeker. As are many other dubious people who enter our country now, but we are not allowed to say anything anymore.

Bye now, my time is probably up here. Can't say what we think anymore because of the PC police. Will accept my fate, but hope some will be able to see it before it is deleted etc.

Okay Spartacus :rolleyes:

Gatling · 01-08-2020 9:38pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

That would likely backfire.

The people would revoke their original citizenship which mean you could not then revoke their Irish one.

They maintain their original citizenship hence we should then revoke the one they got through living here a few years and filling in a form ,

For instance we send this rapist back to Nigeria they can't make him stateless and send him else where he's Nigerian born and bred .

He will do 10 years depending on whether he appeals or not so we spend hundreds of thousands holding him in mountjoy or elsewhere then we will spend tends of thousands more in social welfare payments for when he gets out and walks back into our society as a free man ,

Where if he pack him off to where he came from he's no longer our problem let Nigeria deal with him

Donald Trump · 01-08-2020 9:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is fidelity not where keep secrets/not help another state in times of war

People used refer to those who breached it,as a 5th column??

I would assume that fidelity and loyalty to the state also cover its institutions - including its courts and laws.

I would not suggest for a minute that someone who breaks any little law should be deported, but someone who was in a position of trust who raped a vulnerable person is not someone for whom there should really be any grey area

Was it even reported that he is a citizen here or is that an assumption?

Donald Trump · 01-08-2020 9:43pm

Gatling wrote: »

They maintain their original citizenship hence we should then revoke the one they got through living here a few years and filling in a form ,

For instance we send this rapist back to Nigeria they can't make him stateless and send him else where he's Nigerian born and bred .

He will do 10 years depending on whether he appeals or not so we spend hundreds of thousands holding him in mountjoy or elsewhere then we will spend tends of thousands more in social welfare payments for when he gets out and walks back into our society as a free man ,

Where if he pack him off to where he came from he's no longer our problem let Nigeria deal with him

We spend the money and punish him.

Would you trust the Nigerian system to punish him over there?

If all you are going to do in response to a vicious crime is to send a person home, well if an immigrant or visitor were just about to return home permanently of their own volition, sure they might as well go on an oul' crime spree first should they be so inclined! It would save them the cost of a flight too

You can revoke your birth citizenship btw. For some countries you have to if you accept another one.

1hnr79jr65 · 01-08-2020 9:48pm

Overheal wrote: »

Doesn’t seem very humane or enlightened. Just sending them into a war zone sounds like cruel and unusual punishment. As for sending a child rapists etc. back loose anywhere in the world, you’re happy to have them rape other children elsewhere so long as it’s not in your backyard?

Is is humane to rape or murder ? I would have zero sympathy for them if they went back to such places because they certainly don't deserve to be here. Is it enlightened for our state to foot the bill of keeping them here in prison at a cost to the taxpayer, with our very lax judicial system and release said criminals back to public in hope they don't commit more crime ?

As for the pedophiles, yes i would have no problem releasing them to their country of origin, inform the legal parties of that state and ship them back, let their home state manage them. I would be in favor of capital punishment but that is not allowed here.

El Tarangu · 01-08-2020 9:52pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.

Nonsense - I don't think many people would object if some Irish-born naturalised Canadian had his/her citizenship stripped having commited some heinous crime

sdanseo wrote: »

Citizenship is not a toy to be given and taken away again when the child is bold.

I agree - I don't think that anyone would agree with it being revoked for speeding tickets or shoplifting. But for raping vulnerable old ladies or murder or similar - yes.

But several international laws prevent making a person stateless.

True, but this would not apply in the current case or cases similar to it.

01-08-2020 10:06pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I do understand that we require workers here, but is citizenship always the way to go?

We don't need workers the same way as twenty years ago. Irelands' economy is strong, with a decent education system behind it. Which means that moving to Ireland for work is attractive. Normal migration with requirements on skills, and a set standard of behavior won't diminish the attractiveness of coming here.

The sad thing is that there is an expectation for European countries to have softer immigration policies that other countries. Which is foolish in my eyes.

Long term visas with leave to remain. Then if you commit a crime your visa is revoked might be an idea. What the F is wrong with that approach could anyone tell me.

Citizenship is a privilege. I know we have our own criminals, but do we we really need to import others forever as Irish Citizens.

Agreed. We should simply be doing what other countries such as China or Japan do. Most migrant workers are temporary, with renewable visas.

People want to work, they'll go through the hassle of renewing visas each year. God knows, I've done so for the last twelve years, and I'm not the worse for it.

Bob24 · 01-08-2020 10:12pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

To make it work, allow them to retain both nationalities.

1) This is already allowed by Ireland, so what you describe is the current situation.
2) Ireland can’t force them to retain it though, especially if their previous country of citizenship doesn’t allow dual-citizenship.

So there is no way to ensure all naturalised citizens retain a second citizenship.

Overheal · 01-08-2020 10:14pm

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Is is humane to rape or murder ? I would have zero sympathy for them if they went back to such places because they certainly don't deserve to be here. Is it enlightened for our state to foot the bill of keeping them here in prison at a cost to the taxpayer, with our very lax judicial system and release said criminals back to public in hope they don't commit more crime ?

As for the pedophiles, yes i would have no problem releasing them to their country of origin, inform the legal parties of that state and ship them back, let their home state manage them. I would be in favor of capital punishment but that is not allowed here.

What legal parties of the state, if it’s a war zone or run by local drug lords?

There are a lot of practical problems with what you propose.

As I said earlier in thread the crux of the issue for support of this idea is the held belief that the Irish criminal justice system is inadequate, and corrections do not limit repeat offense. If there was a strongly held faith in Irish criminal justice the thought of throwing your problems back over the fence would never come about.

Making them some other countries problem may be politically expedient but the better course of action is criminal justice reform and a critical review of how Ireland grants certificate of naturalization.

_Kaiser_ · 01-08-2020 10:24pm

In the end what it comes down to is this is another case of importing trouble.

I know some on this thread (and indeed in the media in general) don't like us to talk about such things, but we have more than enough native low-life's and wasters here that we can't deal with effectively as it is.
We certainly don't need to be adding to the problem by bringing in more - with the added wrinkle of having them and their supporters shout -ist when they are called out on their behaviours.

Genuine refugees should be helped in limited, manageable numbers (considering we already give hundreds of millions of Euro in foreign aid) for as long as there is a real danger to them returning home.
Once that danger has passed however, they can either apply for legal residency through the long-established options (as indeed many people living and working here have), or be escorted to the airport and put on a flight home.

Anyone who arrives here without a verifiable history, or in the back of a container from the likes of France - back where you came from! Anyone's whose asylum claim is denied should be given ONE appeal. If that fails - back where you came from!

Anyone who commits a serious crime while a guest of this country and the goodwill of its citizens - back where you came from! We shouldn't be on the hook for feeding, rehabilitating them in already overcrowded prisons.

Citizenship (as others have said) is a privilege that should be EARNED by making a genuine positive impact on their community and the nation as whole. Not simply because they "Did their time" in a DP centre.
Speaking of DP centres - fully agree that they need to be closed. Firstly to new entrants until the backlog is cleared (under the same ONE appeal system I referred to above), and then to anyone not eligible under the conditions above.
We absolutely do NOT need to house and throw social welfare supports at these people when we can't even manage to create genuinely affordable housing for not just those genuinely in need of it, but the wider work force as a whole.

Ireland has become a nation where too many are letting the misplaced guilt, the misplaced social issues of other nations (eg: the BLM crusade), and American identity politics have far too much sway in our lives and the decisions made by the powers that be.
It's an inferiority complex - we crave the validation and approval of our "betters", and feel that we must somehow apologise and make up for the fact that we're a predominantly white, generally prosperous first-world country. Of course those championing these crusades are usually not directly impacted anyway.

It's time we copped ourselves on and stopped letting those who think they "know better" make decisions that the rest of us have to live with the negative consequences of.

Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

Comments