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Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

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  • 31-07-2020 7:22pm
    #1
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭


    The recent case of the Nigerian Healthcare assistant convicted of raping a 73 year old Alzheimer’s patient raises the question of whether we should legislate for revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation upon conviction of a serious crime once sentence has been served so we could deport these criminals.

    This individual may or may not have acquired Irish citizenship along the way, but he was a Nigerian citizen originally.

    As things stand, acquired citizenship can be revoked in a very specific set of circumstances e.g. the person provided misleading information when applying and being assessed or the person acted against the state e.g. terrorism etc.

    But a serious criminal act like rape or murder is not currently sufficient to revoke citizenship and trigger a subsequent deportation.

    I would like to see that changed, so Irish citizenship conferred on anyone by way of naturalisation could be revoked after conviction and sentence being served for a serious crime. Once sentence completed the individual would be deported to where he/she came from.

    Note: this would apply to anyone who has acquired Irish citizenship having held previous non-Irish citizenship. Regardless of colour, sex, age etc.

    I would assume this would require a referendum for constitution change to implement. Is this something you would vote in favour of?

    (Assuming a clear definition of ‘serious crime’ was provided.)


«1345678

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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I suspect you may need a constitutional change?


    Personally i wouldnt vote for such a change,as it gives too much power to the dail




    But i think a type of permenant visa should be awarded,as a step below citizenship though


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    #3
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Bigger question is why asylum seekers would be given permanent citizenship.

    Should be only limited, reviewed every 5 years for criminal convictions or no intention of finding a job.


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    #4
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I suspect you may need a constitutional change?

    Correct, hence the referendum. (I removed the mention of constitution while writing the post, will add back)


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    #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    Correct, hence the referendum. (I removed the mention of constitution while writing the post, will add back)

    I posted and then edited....when i reread and seen refendum mentioned :pac:


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    #6
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Bigger question is why asylum seekers would be given permanent citizenship.

    Should be only limited, reviewed every 5 years for criminal convictions or no intention of finding a job.

    Creating 2nd classes of citizens? Requiring additional oversight and regulatory costs?


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    #7
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

    Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


    And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers


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    #8
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    The recent case of the Nigerian Healthcare assistant convicted of raping a 73 year old Alzheimer’s patient raises the question of whether we should legislat(...............) ‘serious crime’ was provided.)


    The Minister for Justice and Equality can revoke your certificate of naturalisation if:
    • You obtained it through fraud, misrepresentation or concealment of material facts or circumstances
    • You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State
    • You were ordinarily resident outside Ireland (other than in public service) for a continuous period of 7 years and, without a reasonable excuse, did not register your name and a declaration of your intention to retain Irish citizenship with an Irish diplomatic mission or consular office or with the Minister for Justice and Equality on an annual basis - see 'How to apply' below.
    • You are also, under the law of a country at war with the State, a citizen of that country
    • You have, by any other voluntary act other than marriage or registration of civil partnership, acquired citizenship of another country
    • https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=114189904


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    #9
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Overheal wrote: »
    Creating 2nd classes of citizens? Requiring additional oversight and regulatory costs?

    Works for non-EU international workers here in the I.T. sector.

    Why do you think it shouldn't apply to unskilled and completely unvetted economic migrants?


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    #10
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Odhinn wrote: »
    The Minister for Justice and Equality can revoke your certificate of naturalisation if:
    • You obtained it through fraud, misrepresentation or concealment of material facts or circumstances
    • You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State
    • You were ordinarily resident outside Ireland (other than in public service) for a continuous period of 7 years and, without a reasonable excuse, did not register your name and a declaration of your intention to retain Irish citizenship with an Irish diplomatic mission or consular office or with the Minister for Justice and Equality on an annual basis - see 'How to apply' below.
    • You are also, under the law of a country at war with the State, a citizen of that country
    • You have, by any other voluntary act other than marriage or registration of civil partnership, acquired citizenship of another country
    • https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=114189904

    Correct, I mentioned that there were circumstances and listed a couple of them, none cover this scenario.


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    #11
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Works for non-EU international workers here in the I.T. sector.
    What did, exactly?
    Why do you think it shouldn't apply to unskilled and completely unvetted economic migrants?

    What shouldn't apply? I never said what you are insinuating.


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    #12
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,576 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    I guess you could only do it if they had second citizenship and I guess it help if their application for citizenship was fraudulent. Just remember a year in Irish prison costs us 75,000 Euro a year. Id rather send him to a Nigerian prison and use the spare change to dig wells in rural Africa or a million other good uses.


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    #13
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Should be a simple case of break laws lose your entitlement to live here ,
    Scrap dual nationality a simple fix you shouldn't get to hold multiple Nationalities and hide behind a passport saying I'm Irish now you can't touch me .
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #14
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Darc19 wrote: »
    So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

    Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


    And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

    If they commit and are convicted of a serious crime then they lose what they ‘earned’. A consequence of their own actions. No different to an employed person losing their job upon conviction of a serious crime versus an unemployed person not having a job to lose meaning they are effectively punished less if you want to put it that way. Additional punishment as you put it happen every day depending on the individual.

    I wouldn’t expect other countries to keep our garbage in the same circumstances. So I certainly wouldn’t be claiming racism if some toerag is sent back from the US or Australia etc.


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    #15
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    I guess you could only do it if they had second citizenship and I guess it help if their application for citizenship was fraudulent. Just remember a year in Irish prison costs us 75,000 Euro a year. Id rather send him to a Nigerian prison and use the spare change to dig wells in rural Africa or a million other good uses.

    To be honest I’d rather safe the money also but it was mentioned on the other thread that there was no guarantee that the sentence would be served in the foreign country.

    This way the criminal serves their time here so we know they get their punishment.


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    #16
    Queasy Tadpole
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Queasy Tadpole


    No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.


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    #17
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Note to mods - can we add a poll?


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    #18
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Just remember a year in Irish prison costs us 75,000 Euro a year. Id rather send him to a Nigerian prison and use the spare change to dig wells in rural Africa or a million other good uses.

    That's fractional pennies compared to what it costs the US taxpayer to detain someone in Guantanamo Bay.

    In the US denaturalization only happens in a few ways, and only if a dishonorable discharge from military service involved sexual assault, would you be denaturalized; it's a matter of enhancement though, that you are dishonorably discharged from the military, not so much that you sexually assaulted someone. Rape, murder, capital offenses etc. are not grounds in and of themselves:

    https://immigration.findlaw.com/citizenship/can-your-u-s-citizenship-be-revoked-.html
    Grounds for Denaturalization
    The following are some of the grounds where your naturalization maybe evoked.

    Falsification or Concealment of Relevant Facts
    You must be absolutely truthful when filling out paperwork and answering interview questions related to the naturalization application process. Even if the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) fails to recognize any lies or ommissions at first, the agency may file a denaturalization action against you after citizenship has been granted. Examples include failure to disclose criminal activities or lying about one's real name or identity.

    Refusal to Testify Before Congress
    You may not refuse to testify before a U.S. congressional committee whose job it is to investigate your alleged involvement in subversive acts, such as those intended to harm U.S. officials or overthrow the U.S. government. This requirement to testify in order to maintain citizenship status expires after 10 years.

    Membership in Subversive Groups
    Your citizenship may be revoked if the U.S. government can prove that you joined a subversive organization within five years of becoming a naturalized citizen. Membership in such organizations is considered a violation of the oath of U.S. allegiance. Examples include the Nazi Party and Al Qaeda.

    Dishonorable Military Discharge
    Since you may become a naturalized U.S. citizen by virtue of serving in the U.S. military, your citizenship may be revoked if you are dishonorably discharged before serving five years. Reasons for dishonorable discharge, which must follow a general court-martial, include desertion and sexual assault.

    Society either condones the cost of enforcing its criminal justice, or it doesn't. Saving some money to create a 2nd class of citizen seems reckless. I'm sure some heads would be rolling and conniptions would be had if an Irish ex-patriot who was convicted of child molestation was sent back to Ireland for you to deal with in an identical manner.


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    #19
    juice1304
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    Darc19 wrote: »
    So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

    Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


    And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

    They do, you can lose your citizenship in america if you commit murder etc.


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    #20
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Queasy Tadpole wrote: »
    No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.

    Even if your a citizen of a another state or multiple states

    Which one is prescident
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #21
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    Once he's served his time, he should be returned to his own country, 'irish national' or not, and let them deal with him.

    Appalling behaviour from anyone and even worse from someone in health care.


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    #22
    Slim Charles
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Slim Charles


    Darc19 wrote: »
    So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

    Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


    And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers




    Congratulations on making the rape of a vulnerable member of society by an immigrant the fault of everyone bar the rapist.


    'Imagine' if you just focused on the matter at hand rather than trying to defend the indefensible.


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    #23
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Gatling wrote: »
    Should be a simple case of break laws lose your entitlement to live here ,
    Scrap dual nationality a simple fix you shouldn't get to hold multiple Nationalities and hide behind a passport saying I'm Irish now you can't touch me .

    That jeopardizes Ireland's treaties with other nations where Irish enjoy dual citizenship status, I would think.


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    #24
    Slim Charles
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Slim Charles


    Overheal wrote: »
    That's fractional pennies compared to what it costs the US taxpayer to detain someone in Guantanamo Bay.

    In the US denaturalization only happens in a few ways, and only if a dishonorable discharge from military service involved sexual assault, would you be denaturalized; it's a matter of enhancement though, that you are dishonorably discharged from the military, not so much that you sexually assaulted someone. Rape, murder, capital offenses etc. are not grounds in and of themselves:

    https://immigration.findlaw.com/citizenship/can-your-u-s-citizenship-be-revoked-.html



    Society either condones the cost of enforcing its criminal justice, or it doesn't. Saving some money to create a 2nd class of citizen seems reckless. I'm sure some heads would be rolling and conniptions would be had if an Irish ex-patriot who was convicted of child molestation was sent back to Ireland for you to deal with in an identical manner.






    This has nothing to do with the U.S or anything you said. Why you feel the need to go off on a tangent to protect criminals is beyond me.


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    #25
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    juice1304 wrote: »
    They do, you can lose your citizenship in america if you commit murder etc.

    That's not true as far as I can tell. I have listed the qualifiers for denaturalization in an earlier response.


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    #26
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Slim Charles wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with the U.S or anything you said. Why you feel the need to go off on a tangent to protect criminals is beyond me.

    You're discussing major changes to citizenship, surely it is helpful to review how this is handled elsewhere in the world. This has nothing to do with "protecting criminals" but rather enlightening people I regularly associate with online away from xenophobia.


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    #27
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Rodney Bathgate wrote: »
    Correct, I mentioned that there were circumstances and listed a couple of them, none cover this scenario.


    This covers it, as far as I can telll


    You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State



    You must also intend in good faith to continue to reside in the State after naturalisation and make a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State, and undertake to observe the laws of the State and respect its democratic values
    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html


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    #28
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,303 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Queasy Tadpole wrote: »
    No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.

    Yes indeed there are, so no need to keep any of the non Irish ones.

    When their sentence is served deport them back to where ever they came from.


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    #29
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,773 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Odhinn wrote: »
    This covers it, as far as I can telll


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

    Observing the law is not the same as not committing misdemeanors or felonies. Observation of the laws is observation of the whole body of law, including the consequences if you commit crimes which are written into statute and/or are case law jurisprudence.

    Interpreting this liberally to include 'breaking the law = denaturalization' would apply to all offenses, jaywalking etc. bam you're out of the country for crossing the road outside a crosswalk.


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    #30
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    juice1304 wrote: »
    They do, you can lose your citizenship in america if you commit murder etc.

    Equally Australia has openly deported ‘underlsirables’ and criminals back to
    their original country - and invited
    their national tV to the airport to
    film the process while they name and shame and recite their crimes.


    They also screen and refuse to allow IN anyone they feel might be a burden on their society or taxpayer - not just including convicted criminals of serious crimes but multiple ‘low level’ offenders.
    Proper order.

    They also when convicting allow past patterns of behaviour and convictions to be integrated into the prosecution. None of this shyte we have to out up with here, nor self declarations of past clean records.

    They also hunt down and imprison and deport people using their credit card location details and bank card use - I really admire lot about that country.

    Not to mention barring their media from glorifying criminals like we do here or allowing them to profit from their crimes.

    We are one entirely civil servant and criminal lobbyist ridden society.

    Again I ask - anyone know where this nigerian rapist piece of filth worked - still no word in any media.


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    #31
    Rodney Bathgate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭Rodney Bathgate


    Odhinn wrote: »
    This covers it, as far as I can telll









    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

    On my phone so can’t easily search the page, but does it explicitly say that failure to observe the laws can result in revocation?


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