Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

Bob24

DelaneyIn wrote: »

It seems to be a money spinner for the government and a bit of a shambles.

Very much doubt it is about the money. A once of 1000 euros fee per naturalised citizen is very little for a government budget, not to mention that the naturalisation process itself does cost money.

Bob24

Donald Trump wrote: »

Tell us your clean rule for doing so?


Bear in mind that when you strip the naturalised spouse and deport them you are going to have to figure out how to deal with the spouse left behind, which you cannot deport, and who have rights!

The OP seems confused when they say “Irish passports should be purely for Irish people.” (sure, but it sounds like a tautology and the OP might miss out on the fact that naturalised citizens are “Irish people”).

But to be fair there is nothing forcing Ireland to naturalise spouses of Irish citizens. They could simply be offered long term resident status if they want to live here.

I don’t know it would be good or bad, I haven’t thought it through, but it is possible.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

The OP seems confused when they say “Irish passports should be purely for Irish people.” (sure, but it sounds like a tautology and the OP might miss out on the fact that naturalised citizens are “Irish people”).

You said before you weren't sure about China, but you can gain citizenship in China, although it's difficult and few would really want it.

I think few people appreciate that citizenship in Ireland is something that people actually want, as opposed to the many countries out there where citizenship isn't exactly desirable.

For me, a major point is that in most countries where naturalisation can occur, acceptance into that society isn't on the books. If I was be naturalised in China, I would always be considered a foreigner, regardless of my legal status. Whereas in Ireland, by adapting to the way of life, people, for the most part, can be accepted regardless of their skin color.

We really should be holding the "Irish" status as being something valuable.

But to be fair there is nothing forcing Ireland to naturalise spouses of Irish citizens. They could simply be offered long term resident status if they want to live here.

I don’t know it would be good or bad, I haven’t thought it through, but it is possible.

It's very possible.. although there should be avenues for citizenship, but there should also be avenues to remove citizenship dependent on their actions while citizens. If something is given away freely with minimal requirements, then people won't value it. If there is a possibility of it's removal, then people will seek to avoid behavior that results in that removal.

Donald Trump

Bob24 wrote: »

The OP seems confused when they say “Irish passports should be purely for Irish people.” (sure, but it sounds like a tautology and the OP might miss out on the fact that naturalised citizens are “Irish people”).

But to be fair there is nothing forcing Ireland to naturalise spouses of Irish citizens. They could simply be offered long term resident status if they want to live here.

I don’t know it would be good or bad, I haven’t thought it through, but it is possible.

That's not really fair though is it? They already have to live here for 3 years. That's long enough with marriage.



What do you do in the case that after a few years a marriage breaks down? It's a fair big lever to hold over someone that you can have them sent back to their own country at your own whim if you are the disaffected Irish partner.


Or if the Irish born spouse dies.

Infini

Honestly my opinion of this is that stripping one of their citizenship should only be restricted to a limited set of high level offences, rape and murder (self-defence excluded) being the 2 Primary ones. If they come to pur country looking for asylum and do that they're no longer welcome or worthy of our protection.

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's not really fair though is it? They already have to live here for 3 years. That's long enough with marriage.

Not sure what fairness has got to do with it. One of the problems these days is the demand to be fair in every circumstance, and so, the whole thing becomes clunky and open to abuse.

I'd be inclined towards the standard 3 years, but there being a probationary period applied for everyone, regardless of their circumstances of ten years. You gain the right to citizenship as an individual (under trial), not connected to the marriage, but during the ten years of probation, you only have residency (which can be revoked should certain crimes or issues occur).

What do you do in the case that after a few years a marriage breaks down? It's a fair big lever to hold over someone that you can have them sent back to their own country at your own whim if you are the disaffected Irish partner.

Hold to the application through marriage, but once the application occurs, then it's an individual application separate to the marriage, with the person being judged as an individual (with all the requirements expected of a potential new citizen). If people are serious about gaining citizenship, they'll jump through the hoops needed to be eligible.

Or if the Irish born spouse dies.

Then, they're married, in which case it's a plus on the application, but still only an aspect of the overall application....

McGiver

JasonStatham wrote:

5 years is too short. Most countries rely on 10 years

Link please? What countries?

Most countries in EU in fact do it after 5 years of permanent residency.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

Hold to the application through marriage, but once the application occurs, then it's an individual application separate to the marriage, with the person being judged as an individual (with all the requirements expected of a potential new citizen). If people are serious about gaining citizenship, they'll jump through the hoops needed to be eligible.

That's precisely the point. Man meets foreign female, gets married and convinces here to come here and put down roots, maybe have a kid and start building a life here. Then after a few years the man starts battering the woman - "you'll do what you are told bitch or it's back to the shithole you came from with you". Don't think it would never happen. 10 years is too long. It leaves the foreign person too vulnerable.


I've heard of similar second hand stories to the above in the US where people got married and had to put up with absolute wankers to see out their 3 years.

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's precisely the point. Man meets foreign female, gets married and convinces here to come here and put down roots, maybe have a kid and start building a life here. Then after a few years the man starts battering the woman - "you'll do what you are told bitch or it's back to the shithole you came from with you". Don't think it would never happen. 10 years is too long. It leaves the foreign person too vulnerable.


I've heard of similar second hand stories to the above in the US where people got married and had to put up with absolute wankers to see out their 3 years.

Sure look at the poor First Lady, Melania.

Yurt2

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. This is not America, or Canada or any other ex European colony founded and sustained by earning citizenship, though it seems to bear much repeating as it's being constantly applied to non colonies in Europe. Good luck in trying to get a Chinese passport, or Japanese, or Korean and they're dead right.

I've met people who have naturalized as Japanese and South Korean. The process, while more onerous than Ireland (there are language and citizenship test hoops to jump through), is far from impossible. It's less attractive to do so as you have to rescind your own nationality, but some do so for professional or national affinity reasons.

McGiver

I'll be honest here. This is a nonsense, illegal and stupid. Largely stems from ignorance of both international and Irish law. Citizenship cannot be removed from someone especially if they lost their original one (many countries don't allow dual citizenship). And even in case of countries which allow dual citizenship the original country would potentially revoke it before deportation would be executed - who wants to handle deported criminals. The only relevant scenarios are terrorism, espionage and treason (war time).

Gatling et al, are just spouting typical nazi/fascist/populist nonsense i.e. proposing easy solutions for complex problems, which sound very appealing to the mob but are completely unrealistic, illegal and impossible to implement unless you morph to any authoritarian system.

And then of course as it has been shown so many times in history it doesn't end with foreigners/Jews/whatever ethnicity or religion the regime targets, then it's gays, then intellectuals, then anyone "weird", and then everyone else who is against the regime. That's how it ends - it's a slippery slope and that's why fascism is dangerous, in the end it turns against everyone.

I'm all for stringent rules, checks and tests for naturalisation candidates. That's a realistic debate to be had unlike the debate about the OPs proposition.

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

Sure look at the poor First Lady, Melania.

I should have said "first hand stories"

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

I should have said "first hand stories"

The slap heard across the world

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's precisely the point. Man meets foreign female, gets married and convinces here to come here and put down roots, maybe have a kid and start building a life here. Then after a few years the man starts battering the woman - "you'll do what you are told bitch or it's back to the shithole you came from with you". Don't think it would never happen. 10 years is too long. It leaves the foreign person too vulnerable.

I actually said 3 years as it stands, with a probation period of ten years thereafter based around an individual application not dependent on the actual marriage. Reread what I wrote.

I've heard of similar second hand stories to the above in the US where people got married and had to put up with absolute wankers to see out their 3 years.

And that's the US. In Ireland/Europe, there are heaps of organisations out there to protect the rights of both migrants and women from harm.. along with a series of laws... which are not dependent on being a citizen. If the wife avails herself of those protections, then she's safe, and her application can be processed separate to her life with the husband.

Gatling

McGiver wrote: »

Gatling et al, are just spouting typical nazi/fascist/populist nonsense i.e. proposing easy solutions for complex problems, which sound very appealing to the mob but are completely unrealistic, illegal and impossible to implement unless you morph to any authoritarian system.

The usual let's not mention anything unless you can say Racist , facist , Nazism yada yada yada lets keep importing foreign criminals and award them with citizenships because other countries do it .

No let's not it's hasn't worked we've brought scumbags into this country -our country and we cannot send them home because it's complicated - no it's absolutely not complicated ,we Stop dual nationality/citizenship and if foreign nationals commit rape , murder , manslaughter , people trafficking ,drug dealing , welfare fraud then detain and deport at the first possible moment.

This keep giving them more and more might convince them to repent and become good honest citizens is bolloxogy

McGiver

Gatling wrote:

The usual let's not mention anything unless you can say Racist , facist , Nazism yada yada yada lets keep importing foreign criminals and award them with citizenships because other countries do it .

First, populist nonsense. Easy solutions for complex problems. And then crown it with a straw man argument.

Nobody said criminals should be imported or that they should be awarded citizenship, you've just made it up.

Gatling

McGiver wrote: »

Nobody said criminals should be imported or that they should be awarded citizenship,

This is what is exactly what has been happening for the last 30 odd years there is no checks and balances .
There is no Stringent checks on those arriving here from abroad or those suddenly arriving with no documentation of any kind and a sob story .

This is what is partly causing a rise in the far right in the younger generation across Europe, there seeing it in every country and it will keep increasing till it hits breaking point and then see what happens ,

We've imported murders , rapists ,drug dealers and terrorists and yet we cannot allow their removal because ehhhh , ehhhh complex social issues , imagine what the Nigerian government would do .

Not our problem .

Overheal

mr_fegelien wrote: »

If someone were to become an Irish citizen, renounce the citizenship of their old counry and then commit a crime, could they be deported?

No. It would be a human rights violation.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/Nationality.aspx

edit: damn boards time machine

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

This is what is exactly what has been happening for the last 30 odd years there is no checks and balances .

None at all really? (You do yourself a disservice with misleading exaggerations)

There is no Stringent checks on those arriving here from abroad or those suddenly arriving with no documentation of any kind and a sob story .

This is what is partly causing a rise in the far right in the younger generation across Europe, there seeing it in every country and it will keep increasing till it hits breaking point and then see what happens ,

We've imported murders , rapists ,drug dealers and terrorists and yet we cannot allow their removal because ehhhh , ehhhh complex social issues , imagine what the Nigerian government would do .

Not our problem .

It is your problem if you grant them Irish citizenship. I'd be frankly amazed however if your strawman was correct, and the state was indeed naturalizing people with a record of murder, rape, drug dealing and terrorism and just going 'ah sure what can you do' and handing them a passport.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

None at all really? (You do yourself a disservice with misleading exaggerations)



It is your problem if you grant them Irish citizenship. I'd be frankly amazed however if your strawman was correct, and the state was indeed naturalizing people with a record of murder, rape, drug dealing and terrorism and just going 'ah sure what can you do' and handing them a passport.

This is happening

Well known rape case here involving a eirtean student who came here on a student visa ,he viscously raped a young student here ,he tried to attack the judge at his trial he was convicted of rape and was supposed to be deported guess what he was granted asylum and is still here despite the fact experts saying he's dangerous and Will rape again .

Conviction for rape here gets asylum which gets him citizenship .

The government are scared of being labeled as racist and ignoring the problem

Have a look at the terrorist Ali Charaf Damache fight to keep his Irish citizenship

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

No. It would be a human rights violation.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/Nationality.aspx

edit: damn boards time machine

Then, it's obvious that we don't make new migrants citizens until they have passed a probationary period, which we deem to be appropriate. Since the State cannot revoke nationality, then, there should be more stringent tests involved before citizenship is awarded, which is within the rights of the State to do. A longer probationary period (10-15 years), during which the migrant, moves through a variety of conditions before finally reaching the actual citizenship processing. After which, they become a citizen, and have full rights as Irish, and can't be revoked.

Ireland is under no obligation to award migrants with citizenship. Many countries operate with much harder measures to achieve citizenship, with variety number of lesser conditions (through visas/permits) to allow migrants to stay within the country. Those visas/permits could be revoked dependent on the behavior of the migrant. Simple.

Gatling

Here's a case from may .

Albanian claimed Asylum ,then received citizenship masquerading as Kosovo war refugee jailed .
Just took 19 years for officials to realise he made bogus claim for asylum and citizenship

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/man-jailed-over-false-application-for-irish-citizenship-1.4260421%3fmode=amp

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

Here's a case from may .

Albanian claimed Asylum ,then received citizenship masquerading as Kosovo war refugee jailed .


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/man-jailed-over-false-application-for-irish-citizenship-1.4260421%3fmode=amp

The system worked: he submitted a falsified application. You don't need a change in the law to prevent them from getting citizenship or having it later revoked.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

The system worked: he submitted a falsified application. You don't need a change in the law to prevent them from getting citizenship or having it later revoked.

If the system worked it wouldn't have took 19 years ,

Hopefully we will see this Albanian striped of his citizenship and returned to Albania ,
Wonder if they will review the tens of thousands of others who got citizenship after masquerading as asylum seekers .

Never understand the mindset of people decrying deportation especially considering we've only managed something like 1400 over 20 years

Yurt2

Gatling wrote: »

Never understand the mindset of people decrying deportation especially considering we've only managed something like 1400 over 20 years

I did some quick google-fu to see how Ireland compared in 2019 for the number of deportations excecuted by similar sized developed countries:

Ireland: 292 (which thejournal.ie reports is about twice as many as '18 & '17)

Finland: 1,963

New Zealand: 453 (down from 642 in '18. Note: the NZ figures are deportations only executed by accompanying immigration officials. The figures for what they term as 'managed departures' where NZ manages and records the voluntary departure of people under deportation orders are much higher)

Norway: Couldn't find annual figures on a quick search, but a news article reveals they deported 453 individuals in September 2019 alone.

Belgium: 2,200

Denmark:: 1,970

I think the figures speak for themselves. Ireland appears to deport at a far lower rate than peer countries.

Edit: Having perused Eurostat, the Belgian figures were incorrect. Figures corrected and Denmark figures added.

hognef

Yurt! wrote: »

I did some quick google-fu to see how Ireland compared in 2019 for the number of deportations excecuted by similar sized developed countries:

Ireland: 292 (which thejournal.ie reports is about twice as many as '18 & '17)

Finland: 1,963

New Zealand: 453 (down from 642 in '18. Note: the NZ figures are deportations only executed by accompanying immigration officials. The figures for what they term as 'managed departures' where NZ manages and records the voluntary departure of people under deportation orders are much higher)

Norway: Couldn't find annual figures on a quick search, but a news article reveals they deported 453 individuals in September 2019 alone.

Belgium: 2,200

Denmark:: 1,970

I think the figures speak for themselves. Ireland appears to deport at a far lower rate than peer countries.

Edit: Having perused Eurostat, the Belgian figures were incorrect. Figures corrected and Denmark figures added.

In order to extract any meaningful information from those numbers, you'll need to also show how many were allowed into each of those countries.

Yurt2

hognef wrote: »

In order to extract any meaningful information from those numbers, you'll need to also show how many were allowed into each of those countries.

I'll allow you do that.

I'm satisfied that we enforce deportations far less than similar sized countries and far less than we're led to believe by people who wish to undermine sensible immigration policy for whatever ideological reason.

Gatling

hognef wrote: »

In order to extract any meaningful information from those numbers, you'll need to also show how many were allowed into each of those countries.

Well we've had 60,000 + through direct provision here we've a 75% asylum refusal rate and only have deported 1300 over and 10 + year period ,
That also doesn't account for the 700,000+ immigrants who have come here to work and settle ( figures open to correction)

hognef

Yurt! wrote: »

I'll allow you do that.

I'm satisfied that we enforce deportations far less than similar sized countries and far less than we're led to believe by people who wish to undermine sensible immigration policy for whatever ideological reason.

2017:
Belgium - 12895 granted asylum, 1310 quota refugees accepted - total 14205.
Ireland - 840 granted asylum - total 840.

Combining the above with the deportation numbers:
Ireland deport 23 for every 100 that are allowed in, Belgium 15.

Granted, ins and outs will vary each year, but, based on the above, you definitely can't argue that Ireland deport far less than Belgium. Not saying you can't still be right overall, but your numbers by themselves prove absolutely nothing.

Edit:
Incidentally, my numbers also show that Ireland import far fewer than Belgium of people that "need" it (refugees, asylum seekers), in both absolute numbers and per capita (Belgium's population is roughly 2.5 times that of Ireland).

We probably do still import far more of people that just "want" it (EU citizens, for example).

Yurt2

hognef wrote: »

2017:
Belgium - 12895 granted asylum, 1310 quota refugees accepted - total 14205.
Ireland - 840 granted asylum - total 840.

Combining the above with the deportation numbers:
Ireland deport 23 for every 100 that are allowed in, Belgium 15.

Granted, ins and outs will vary each year, but, based on the above, you definitely can't argue that Ireland deport far less than Belgium. Not saying you can't still be right overall, but your numbers by themselves prove absolutely nothing.

Edit:
Incidentally, my numbers also show that Ireland import far fewer than Belgium of people that "need" it (refugees, asylum seekers), in both absolute numbers and per capita (Belgium's population is roughly 2.5 times that of Ireland).

We probably do still import far more of people that just "want" it (EU citizens, for example).

Why are you conflating people granted asylum with deportations? I, or anyone else really, aren't interested in deporting genuine asylum claims. Rather in seeing deportation orders acted upon and immigration policy enforced.

Asylum claims will consist of a small sliver of non EEA entries into a state and will consist of a minority of immigration violations and overstays etc.

You can absolutely say that Ireland deports people at a far lower rate than similarly sized developed country. Our deportation figures only say nothing if you actively want them to say nothing. In absolute and relative terms, Ireland is not a deportation happy country. If you invite yourself in, the likelihood of you being given the road is very low indeed.