Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

Rodney Bathgate

The recent case of the Nigerian Healthcare assistant convicted of raping a 73 year old Alzheimer’s patient raises the question of whether we should legislate for revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation upon conviction of a serious crime once sentence has been served so we could deport these criminals.

This individual may or may not have acquired Irish citizenship along the way, but he was a Nigerian citizen originally.

As things stand, acquired citizenship can be revoked in a very specific set of circumstances e.g. the person provided misleading information when applying and being assessed or the person acted against the state e.g. terrorism etc.

But a serious criminal act like rape or murder is not currently sufficient to revoke citizenship and trigger a subsequent deportation.

I would like to see that changed, so Irish citizenship conferred on anyone by way of naturalisation could be revoked after conviction and sentence being served for a serious crime. Once sentence completed the individual would be deported to where he/she came from.

Note: this would apply to anyone who has acquired Irish citizenship having held previous non-Irish citizenship. Regardless of colour, sex, age etc.

I would assume this would require a referendum for constitution change to implement. Is this something you would vote in favour of?

(Assuming a clear definition of ‘serious crime’ was provided.)

I suspect you may need a constitutional change?


Personally i wouldnt vote for such a change,as it gives too much power to the dail




But i think a type of permenant visa should be awarded,as a step below citizenship though

TuringBot47

Bigger question is why asylum seekers would be given permanent citizenship.

Should be only limited, reviewed every 5 years for criminal convictions or no intention of finding a job.

Rodney Bathgate

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suspect you may need a constitutional change?

Correct, hence the referendum. (I removed the mention of constitution while writing the post, will add back)

Rodney Bathgate

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Correct, hence the referendum. (I removed the mention of constitution while writing the post, will add back)

I posted and then edited....when i reread and seen refendum mentioned :pac:

Overheal

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Bigger question is why asylum seekers would be given permanent citizenship.

Should be only limited, reviewed every 5 years for criminal convictions or no intention of finding a job.

Creating 2nd classes of citizens? Requiring additional oversight and regulatory costs?

Darc19

So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

Odhinn

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

The recent case of the Nigerian Healthcare assistant convicted of raping a 73 year old Alzheimer’s patient raises the question of whether we should legislat(...............) ‘serious crime’ was provided.)

The Minister for Justice and Equality can revoke your certificate of naturalisation if:

• You obtained it through fraud, misrepresentation or concealment of material facts or circumstances
• You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State
• You were ordinarily resident outside Ireland (other than in public service) for a continuous period of 7 years and, without a reasonable excuse, did not register your name and a declaration of your intention to retain Irish citizenship with an Irish diplomatic mission or consular office or with the Minister for Justice and Equality on an annual basis - see 'How to apply' below.
• You are also, under the law of a country at war with the State, a citizen of that country
• You have, by any other voluntary act other than marriage or registration of civil partnership, acquired citizenship of another country
• https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=114189904

TuringBot47

Overheal wrote: »

Creating 2nd classes of citizens? Requiring additional oversight and regulatory costs?

Works for non-EU international workers here in the I.T. sector.

Why do you think it shouldn't apply to unskilled and completely unvetted economic migrants?

Rodney Bathgate

Odhinn wrote: »

The Minister for Justice and Equality can revoke your certificate of naturalisation if:

• You obtained it through fraud, misrepresentation or concealment of material facts or circumstances
• You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State
• You were ordinarily resident outside Ireland (other than in public service) for a continuous period of 7 years and, without a reasonable excuse, did not register your name and a declaration of your intention to retain Irish citizenship with an Irish diplomatic mission or consular office or with the Minister for Justice and Equality on an annual basis - see 'How to apply' below.
• You are also, under the law of a country at war with the State, a citizen of that country
• You have, by any other voluntary act other than marriage or registration of civil partnership, acquired citizenship of another country
• https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=114189904

Correct, I mentioned that there were circumstances and listed a couple of them, none cover this scenario.

Overheal

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Works for non-EU international workers here in the I.T. sector.

What did, exactly?

Why do you think it shouldn't apply to unskilled and completely unvetted economic migrants?

What shouldn't apply? I never said what you are insinuating.

Yellow_Fern

I guess you could only do it if they had second citizenship and I guess it help if their application for citizenship was fraudulent. Just remember a year in Irish prison costs us 75,000 Euro a year. Id rather send him to a Nigerian prison and use the spare change to dig wells in rural Africa or a million other good uses.

Gatling

Should be a simple case of break laws lose your entitlement to live here ,
Scrap dual nationality a simple fix you shouldn't get to hold multiple Nationalities and hide behind a passport saying I'm Irish now you can't touch me .

Rodney Bathgate

Darc19 wrote: »

So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

If they commit and are convicted of a serious crime then they lose what they ‘earned’. A consequence of their own actions. No different to an employed person losing their job upon conviction of a serious crime versus an unemployed person not having a job to lose meaning they are effectively punished less if you want to put it that way. Additional punishment as you put it happen every day depending on the individual.

I wouldn’t expect other countries to keep our garbage in the same circumstances. So I certainly wouldn’t be claiming racism if some toerag is sent back from the US or Australia etc.

Rodney Bathgate

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I guess you could only do it if they had second citizenship and I guess it help if their application for citizenship was fraudulent. Just remember a year in Irish prison costs us 75,000 Euro a year. Id rather send him to a Nigerian prison and use the spare change to dig wells in rural Africa or a million other good uses.

To be honest I’d rather safe the money also but it was mentioned on the other thread that there was no guarantee that the sentence would be served in the foreign country.

This way the criminal serves their time here so we know they get their punishment.

Queasy Tadpole

No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.

Rodney Bathgate

Note to mods - can we add a poll?

Overheal

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Just remember a year in Irish prison costs us 75,000 Euro a year. Id rather send him to a Nigerian prison and use the spare change to dig wells in rural Africa or a million other good uses.

That's fractional pennies compared to what it costs the US taxpayer to detain someone in Guantanamo Bay.

In the US denaturalization only happens in a few ways, and only if a dishonorable discharge from military service involved sexual assault, would you be denaturalized; it's a matter of enhancement though, that you are dishonorably discharged from the military, not so much that you sexually assaulted someone. Rape, murder, capital offenses etc. are not grounds in and of themselves:

https://immigration.findlaw.com/citizenship/can-your-u-s-citizenship-be-revoked-.html

Grounds for Denaturalization
The following are some of the grounds where your naturalization maybe evoked.

Falsification or Concealment of Relevant Facts
You must be absolutely truthful when filling out paperwork and answering interview questions related to the naturalization application process. Even if the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) fails to recognize any lies or ommissions at first, the agency may file a denaturalization action against you after citizenship has been granted. Examples include failure to disclose criminal activities or lying about one's real name or identity.

Refusal to Testify Before Congress
You may not refuse to testify before a U.S. congressional committee whose job it is to investigate your alleged involvement in subversive acts, such as those intended to harm U.S. officials or overthrow the U.S. government. This requirement to testify in order to maintain citizenship status expires after 10 years.

Membership in Subversive Groups
Your citizenship may be revoked if the U.S. government can prove that you joined a subversive organization within five years of becoming a naturalized citizen. Membership in such organizations is considered a violation of the oath of U.S. allegiance. Examples include the Nazi Party and Al Qaeda.

Dishonorable Military Discharge
Since you may become a naturalized U.S. citizen by virtue of serving in the U.S. military, your citizenship may be revoked if you are dishonorably discharged before serving five years. Reasons for dishonorable discharge, which must follow a general court-martial, include desertion and sexual assault.

Society either condones the cost of enforcing its criminal justice, or it doesn't. Saving some money to create a 2nd class of citizen seems reckless. I'm sure some heads would be rolling and conniptions would be had if an Irish ex-patriot who was convicted of child molestation was sent back to Ireland for you to deal with in an identical manner.

juice1304

Darc19 wrote: »

So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

They do, you can lose your citizenship in america if you commit murder etc.

Gatling

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.

Even if your a citizen of a another state or multiple states

Which one is prescident

Rubberchikken

Once he's served his time, he should be returned to his own country, 'irish national' or not, and let them deal with him.

Appalling behaviour from anyone and even worse from someone in health care.

Slim Charles

Darc19 wrote: »

So because someone is originally from another country, they would be stripped of any earned citizenship as additional punishment?

Imagine if other countries did this for Irish people, you would probably be first to claim racism.


And in the particular case, it is unlikely the person had irish citizenship as the gutter media would have been all over it as they do to satisfy their racist readers

Congratulations on making the rape of a vulnerable member of society by an immigrant the fault of everyone bar the rapist.


'Imagine' if you just focused on the matter at hand rather than trying to defend the indefensible.

Overheal

Gatling wrote: »

Should be a simple case of break laws lose your entitlement to live here ,
Scrap dual nationality a simple fix you shouldn't get to hold multiple Nationalities and hide behind a passport saying I'm Irish now you can't touch me .

That jeopardizes Ireland's treaties with other nations where Irish enjoy dual citizenship status, I would think.

Slim Charles

Overheal wrote: »

That's fractional pennies compared to what it costs the US taxpayer to detain someone in Guantanamo Bay.

In the US denaturalization only happens in a few ways, and only if a dishonorable discharge from military service involved sexual assault, would you be denaturalized; it's a matter of enhancement though, that you are dishonorably discharged from the military, not so much that you sexually assaulted someone. Rape, murder, capital offenses etc. are not grounds in and of themselves:

https://immigration.findlaw.com/citizenship/can-your-u-s-citizenship-be-revoked-.html



Society either condones the cost of enforcing its criminal justice, or it doesn't. Saving some money to create a 2nd class of citizen seems reckless. I'm sure some heads would be rolling and conniptions would be had if an Irish ex-patriot who was convicted of child molestation was sent back to Ireland for you to deal with in an identical manner.

This has nothing to do with the U.S or anything you said. Why you feel the need to go off on a tangent to protect criminals is beyond me.

Overheal

juice1304 wrote: »

They do, you can lose your citizenship in america if you commit murder etc.

That's not true as far as I can tell. I have listed the qualifiers for denaturalization in an earlier response.

Overheal

Slim Charles wrote: »

This has nothing to do with the U.S or anything you said. Why you feel the need to go off on a tangent to protect criminals is beyond me.

You're discussing major changes to citizenship, surely it is helpful to review how this is handled elsewhere in the world. This has nothing to do with "protecting criminals" but rather enlightening people I regularly associate with online away from xenophobia.

Odhinn

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Correct, I mentioned that there were circumstances and listed a couple of them, none cover this scenario.

This covers it, as far as I can telll

You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State

You must also intend in good faith to continue to reside in the State after naturalisation and make a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State, and undertake to observe the laws of the State and respect its democratic values

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

Galwayguy35

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

No, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen. There are plenty of Irish born and bred walking around who have done more and worse.

Yes indeed there are, so no need to keep any of the non Irish ones.

When their sentence is served deport them back to where ever they came from.

Overheal

Odhinn wrote: »

This covers it, as far as I can telll


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

Observing the law is not the same as not committing misdemeanors or felonies. Observation of the laws is observation of the whole body of law, including the consequences if you commit crimes which are written into statute and/or are case law jurisprudence.

Interpreting this liberally to include 'breaking the law = denaturalization' would apply to all offenses, jaywalking etc. bam you're out of the country for crossing the road outside a crosswalk.

JustAThought

juice1304 wrote: »

They do, you can lose your citizenship in america if you commit murder etc.

Equally Australia has openly deported ‘underlsirables’ and criminals back to
their original country - and invited
their national tV to the airport to
film the process while they name and shame and recite their crimes.


They also screen and refuse to allow IN anyone they feel might be a burden on their society or taxpayer - not just including convicted criminals of serious crimes but multiple ‘low level’ offenders.
Proper order.

They also when convicting allow past patterns of behaviour and convictions to be integrated into the prosecution. None of this shyte we have to out up with here, nor self declarations of past clean records.

They also hunt down and imprison and deport people using their credit card location details and bank card use - I really admire lot about that country.

Not to mention barring their media from glorifying criminals like we do here or allowing them to profit from their crimes.

We are one entirely civil servant and criminal lobbyist ridden society.

Again I ask - anyone know where this nigerian rapist piece of filth worked - still no word in any media.

Rodney Bathgate

Odhinn wrote: »

This covers it, as far as I can telll









https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html

On my phone so can’t easily search the page, but does it explicitly say that failure to observe the laws can result in revocation?

Overheal

JustAThought wrote: »

Equally Australia has openly deported ‘underlsirables’ and criminals back to
their original country

fact check on that:

Many Australian citizens are not aware that they can lose their Australian citizenship.

You can lose your Australian citizenship in the circumstances set out below.

Renounce your citizenship voluntarily

You can lose Australian citizenship if you take steps to renounce it.

You may decide to do this because you are a citizen of another country, or you are entitled to become a citizen of another country. There is a detailed process that you must follow.

Australia is a signatory to the relevant United Nations Convention, so our Government will not approve your application to renounce your Australian citizenship unless you provide evidence that you are a citizen of another country or you will acquire the citizenship of another country.

Dual citizens will have citizenship renounced through certain conduct

In 2015 a further category of renunciation of citizenship was introduced. If a person is a dual citizen and engages in certain kinds of conduct that is considered to be inconsistent with allegiance to Australia, they are taken to have renounced their Australian citizenship, and will cease to be an Australian citizen.

This will happen regardless of how the person became an Australian citizen (ie including if they became an Australian citizen on birth).

The Minister for Immigration will give notice that they have ceased to be an Australian citizen. The person affected may seek a review in the Federal Court or High Court. In certain situations, the Minister may exempt a person from cessation of citizenship.

This loss of citizenship applies to people aged 14 years or older.

Examples of conduct that will lead to cessation of citizenship in this way are:

engaging in terrorist activities in Australia or overseas;
financing terrorist activities;
serving in the armed forces of a country at war with Australia or fighting for or in the service of a declared terrorist organisation outside Australia.
There is no requirement for conviction by a court.

Acquired another citizenship

Before 4 April 2002, Australian citizens who became citizens of another country lost their Australian citizenship automatically. Since that date Australian citizens who become citizens of another country may in some circumstances become dual citizens.

Citizenship revoked

A person will lose Australian citizenship if it is revoked. The Minister may revoke Australian citizenship following certain convictions or actions, unless the person is an Australian citizen by birth, or the person is conferred citizenship and it would not go against the public interest for that person to remain an Australian citizen.

The following are the relevant convictions or actions that the Minister may act on:

The person is convicted of making a false statement or false representation or producing a false document in relation to their application to become an Australian citizen.

The person became an Australian citizen as a result of migration-related fraud.
The person became an Australian citizen as a result of third-party fraud (for example, fraudulent conduct by a migration agent in the citizenship application).

The person was convicted of a serious criminal offence at any time before becoming a citizen that carries a prison sentence of 12 months or more.
If a person is a dual citizen and is convicted of certain crimes (terrorism related) for which they are sentenced to at least six years in prison, and the Minister considers that the person has demonstrated that they have repudiated their allegiance to Australia, the Minister can revoke their citizenship. They will be deported on release from prison.

https://brettslater.com/when-can-you-lose-your-australian-citizenship/

This doesn't cover rape unless it were to happen prior to gaining citizenship.

Overheal

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

On my phone so can’t easily search the page, but does it explicitly say that failure to observe the laws can result in revocation?

It does not.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

That jeopardizes Ireland's treaties with other nations where Irish enjoy dual citizenship status, I would think.

So be it ,

I'm sure other's would quickly follow suit , citizenships should be earned not handed out for anyone who decides they want to be Irish or other nationalities ,

Bring several thousand jobs , create enterprise , provide years of unblemished service in healthcare , science , education then possibly qualify for honorary citizenship .

honorary is the keyword .

Yellow_Fern

Overheal wrote: »

Society either condones the cost of enforcing its criminal justice, or it doesn't. Saving some money to create a 2nd class of citizen seems reckless. I'm sure some heads would be rolling and conniptions would be had if an Irish ex-patriot who was convicted of child molestation was sent back to Ireland for you to deal with in an identical manner.

I dont think the Irish Right embraced rapist Fr Oliver Grady when he was deported here.

suicide_circus

Does raping a 73 year old incapacitated woman count as a failure in your duty of fidelity to the nation?

sdanseo

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Bigger question is why asylum seekers would be given permanent citizenship.

Should be only limited, reviewed every 5 years for criminal convictions or no intention of finding a job.

You're talking about permanent residency.

Citizenship is not a toy to be given and taken away again when the child is bold. You only issue it if the person deserves, and they have it until they renounce it.

I do think there's space for some very serious crimes to be considered renouncing it. But several international laws prevent making a person stateless.

Overheal

suicide_circus wrote: »

Does raping a 73 year old incapacitated woman count as a failure in your duty of fidelity to the nation?

That depends on your jurisprudence on the phrase. I found this:

https://www.mondaq.com/ireland/crime/175990/court-takes-into-account-duty-of-fidelity-to-the-nation-and-loyalty-to-the-state-in-a-time-of-fiscal-emergency-when-imposing-sentence

FWIW I don't think it's applicable.

Rodney Bathgate

Overheal wrote: »

It does not.

So we will need a referendum. Will get on to my local TDs in the morning to set the ball rolling.

Odhinn

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

On my phone so can’t easily search the page, but does it explicitly say that failure to observe the laws can result in revocation?

No, unfortunately. A case for the high court, I'd imagine.

Rodney Bathgate

Odhinn wrote: »

No, unfortunately. A case for the high court, I'd imagine.

Pity.

Sand

Overheal wrote: »

Creating 2nd classes of citizens? Requiring additional oversight and regulatory costs?

You're right, they shouldn't be granted citizenship at all.

Overheal

Sand wrote: »

You're right, they shouldn't be granted citizenship at all.

Considering we take the assumption he was naturalized, gained citizenship, before this crime occurred - on what grounds would you have terminated his application for citizenship?

Sand

Overheal wrote: »

Considering we take the assumption he was naturalized, gained citizenship, before this crime occurred - on what grounds would you have terminated his application for citizenship?

Irish citizenship is a privilege, not a right. So its not for me to prove why it should not be granted to anyone who manages to reach our shores.

Odhinn

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Pity.

As he would have been an adult when he received citizenship (and that of course presumes that he did in fact get citizenship) I've no problem seeing him fucked out on his ear.

Gatling

suicide_circus wrote: »

Does raping a 73 year old incapacitated woman count as a failure in your duty of fidelity to the nation?

Wouldn't be the first time ,we granted asylum a few years back to violent rapist who attacked a student only a few weeks after arriving here on a student visa and applied for asylum while on trial for said rape which be was convicted but he's still here.

This case should bring further investigations to make sure there isn't historical abuse in other places he worked

sdanseo

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

So we will need a referendum. Will get on to my local TDs in the morning to set the ball rolling.

If it was that simple we'd have a referendum once a month. Almost 40 amendments in 80 years is high enough as it is, while the Constitution is and should be a living, breathing document, amendments should still be reasonably well spaced out as society develops.

Spanish Eyes

On a general note, how easy or difficult is it for immigrants to obtain Irish citizenship. Sorry I know I could look it up, but someone might save me the drudgery of research.

As a pp said citizenship is a privilege, not a right.

Long term visas to be renewed every few years, visa revoked if the law is broken like this animal did. Easier to do that than try to revoke citizenship.

Before anyone lights on me for being xenophobic, I don't care. We will now have to support the wife and kids since this earner is off the scene, and when he is eventually released he will be unemployable, so guess what, yup, more social supports.

I do realise that native Irish have committed heinous crimes and are supported by the State, but do we really need to import them anymore? Is it a Government plan to have the State full of immigrants, asylum seekers or what?

Overheal

Sand wrote: »

Irish citizenship is a privilege, not a right. So its not for me to prove why it should not be granted to anyone who manages to reach our shores.

That doesn't really answer my question, and rather it dodges addressing the problem here: when this man would have (we assume) applied for naturalization, why would you have blocked him, having no notion that years from now he might commit an egregious crime? All he is, during the naturalization process, is a Nigerian national who's lived in Ireland long enough to apply, and has bonafides as a healthcare assistant.

Overheal

sdanseo wrote: »

If it was that simple we'd have a referendum once a month. Almost 40 amendments in 80 years is high enough as it is, while the Constitution is and should be a living, breathing document, amendments should still be reasonably well spaced out as society develops.

I don't think there should be any limit on that, I mean as far as Ireland goes you are a Republic but referendums are a democratic exercise and I don't see the problem with them on matters of social and cultural sensibility. US states include propositions and statewide amendments, countwide and districtwide amendments on ballots frequently, almost for every vote whether midterm, primary or general or otherwise.

Sand

Overheal wrote: »

That doesn't really answer my question, and rather it dodges addressing the problem here: when this man would have (we assume) applied for naturalization, why would you have blocked him, having no notion that years from now he might commit an egregious crime? All he is, during the naturalization process, is a Nigerian national who's lived in Ireland long enough to apply, and has bonafides as a healthcare assistant.

Your question is not the problem. The problem here is that the Irish state imported this individual into the country and this person committed a horrendous violation of an Irish person. The state failed their duty of care to that Irish person.

If you don't see that as the core problem, then we might as well be speaking different languages.