Shooting in the French Alps

davet82 · 07-09-2012 1:09pm

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

You all need to lay off the Criminal Minds / John Grisham.

We can crack this if you were just a little more positive!! :rolleyes:

Dave! · 07-09-2012 1:10pm

Where's Sherlock Holmes when you need him?

edit

davet82 wrote: »

We can crack this if you were just a little more positive!! :rolleyes:

Oh, there he is

Bipolar Joe · 07-09-2012 1:11pm

davet82 wrote: »

We can crack this if you were just a little more positive!! :rolleyes:

AH can't even solve the mystery of what threads should be in it, this one is a no-hoper, lads.

davet82 · 07-09-2012 1:12pm

Dave! wrote: »

Where's Sherlock Holmes when you need him?

edit

Oh, there he is

why thank you :cool:

i think :rolleyes:

midlandsmissus · 07-09-2012 1:14pm

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

You all need to lay off the Criminal Minds / John Grisham.

This might sound a bit grim but I'm so interested in cases like these where this is no evident conclusion of what happened. I have such an analytical mind, and I could spend ages looking at cases like these and looking at all the evidence, and trying to figure out what happened, and who did it.

I've spent evenings looking at cases such as Jonbenet Ramsey/ Meredith Kercher etc.

Maybe I do need to lay off the John Grisham alright

But I think it's good for your brain to weigh up evidence and try to find out what happened.

Quorum · 07-09-2012 1:15pm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What I find mindblowing is thinking that the first cyclist overtook the second cyclist and was shot dead when arriving at the wrong time. Then the second cyclist found all the bodies. It could so easily have been the second cyclist killed.

It's one of those...if that happened 5 seconds later, or if he hadn't overtook, things where you're like woah.

Well, the second cyclist might not have got caught even if the other guy hadn't overtaken him, as he might have been going at his max speed. So both cyclists might have come on the immediate aftermath.

Uriel. · 07-09-2012 1:20pm

It still doesn't make sense to leave the child alive - she's old enough to have mind capable of providing evidence as a witness. Ok, the shooter(s) were possibly wearing balaclavas. But the child may be able to provide insight into the getaway vehicle (if there was one), how the executions were undertaken and might at least unravel some parts of the mystery and/or could lead the police to track the shooter(s) and/or establish potential motive.

davet82 · 07-09-2012 1:21pm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

This might sound a bit grim but I'm so interested in cases like these where this is no evident conclusion of what happened. I have such an analytical mind, and I could spend ages looking at cases like these and looking at all the evidence, and trying to figure out what happened, and who did it.

I've spent evenings looking at cases such as Jonbenet Ramsey/ Meredith Kercher etc.

Maybe I do need to lay off the John Grisham alright But I think it's good for your brain to weigh up evidence and try to find out what happened.

will you be my watson?

davet82 · 07-09-2012 1:22pm

Uriel. wrote: »

It still doesn't make sense to leave the child alive - she's old enough to have mind capable of providing evidence as a witness. Ok, the shooter(s) were possibly wearing balaclavas. But the child may be able to provide insight into the getaway vehicle (if there was one), how the executions were undertaken and might at least unravel some parts of the mystery and/or could lead the police to track the shooter(s) and/or establish potential motive.

i'm sure a 7 year old could tell you what language was being spoken too, that would be a big insight

Uriel. · 07-09-2012 1:26pm

davet82 wrote: »

i'm sure a 7 year old could tell you what language was being spoken too, that would be a big insight

exactly, or if her parents said anything during the attack or if the shooter(s) said anything etc...

by the way the car is positioned in the aerial photography it would appear that they at least tried to escape. If the father was expecting something untoward could happen (say as a result of political reasons), he could have being saying stuff in the car( like "this is Mossad, because I provided nuclear assistance to Iran" or "fúck my stinking brother said he'd kill me for the family fortune" etc...) while he was trying to reverse the car. The shooter wouldn't know this. The child might remember some of this and relay it to the police and bang you got huge leads.

brimal · 07-09-2012 2:00pm

Why all the focus on the bullet hitting the girl?

Could it be that this bullet was meant for the adults and amidst all the chaos inside the car the shooter missed and it hit the girl? People are talking like the shooter deliberately aimed for the girl. I haven't read much police reports so correct me if I'm wrong.

Bipolar Joe · 07-09-2012 2:03pm

brimal wrote: »

Why all the focus on the bullet hitting the girl?

Could it be that this bullet was meant for the adults and amidst all the chaos inside the car the shooter missed and it hit the girl? People are talking like the shooter deliberately aimed for the girl. I haven't read much police reports so correct me if I'm wrong.

Because that's what makes the story exciting.

seamus · 07-09-2012 2:09pm

brimal wrote: »

Why all the focus on the bullet hitting the girl?

Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the scene.
Three clinical executions, one murder with five bullets on target, four of them at range. Very clean, very professional murders.
And then a little girl who's been hit in the head with something and shot in the shoulder. A clumsy assault.

It's just weird.

The Big Red Button · 07-09-2012 2:22pm

seamus wrote: »

Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the scene.
Three clinical executions, one murder with five bullets on target, four of them at range. Very clean, very professional murders.
And then a little girl who's been hit in the head with something and shot in the shoulder. A clumsy assault.

It's just weird.

Do they know for sure she was hit on the head though?

She could have bashed her head off the frame of the car herself, when getting out of it while the shooting was going on all around her.

Or, if he shot her as she ran from the car, chances are she'd have fallen down - could have hit her head off the ground or off something else then.

Or maybe the cyclist hit her, before he knew what was going on, if she ran out from behind the car.

As someone mentioned, if you're going to have any bit of compassion/humanity that would lead you to spare a child's life, you'd find it very difficult to beat them around the head! Doesn't seem to be any point in doing that - if he'd wanted to kill her, I'm sure he would have done so.

davet82 · 07-09-2012 2:26pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

Do they know for sure she was hit on the head though?

Well whatever happened it fractured her skull so i'd imagine it would have to be a very hard impact to do that but i suppose a fall could be possible.

the media are reporting the child was beaten so it suggests there were more injuries consistant with a beating than a fall

Uriel. · 07-09-2012 2:27pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

As someone mentioned, if you're going to have any bit of compassion/humanity that would lead you to spare a child's life, you'd find it very difficult to beat them around the head! Doesn't seem to be any point in doing that - if he'd wanted to kill her, I'm sure he would have done so.

and I can't see a professional leaving a living witness either (though thankfully they did). It's all very strange.

deandean · 07-09-2012 2:57pm

I reckon the girl was shot from a distance - you'd be aiming for a body shot at distance - she fell on the spot when shot, and whacked her head off the road, and was left for dead. i.e. she was making a run for it. For her life.

davet82 · 07-09-2012 2:59pm

Last night Philip Murphy, a neighbour in the wealthy village of Claygate, Surrey, recalled how police asked if they could use his driveway to spy on the massacre victims' mock-Tudor house.

The retired finance director said: 'I watched them from the window and they were watching Mr Al-Hilli and his brother.

'I thought they were from Special Branch. They would sit there all day in their parked car just looking at the house.

'When Mr Al-Hilli came out and drove off, they would follow him. It was all very odd. I never told the family they were being watched.'

The surveillance happened as the invasion of Iraq by US and British forces began in March 2003.

Any operation on the family would almost certainly have been backed up by bugging devices within their detached home.

Last night it remained unclear why a surveillance team would be sent to watch a man who, on the outside at least, was a respected engineer.

Would this be common practice for ex-pats from a country that the UK was at war with?

The dead man's apparent family links to Saddam Hussein's ruling Ba'ath party in Iraq may be of significance.

A close friend told how Mr Al-Hilli's father Kadhim, a former factory owner, and mother Fasiha fled Baghdad in the late 1970s. The friend told how Mr Al-Hilli's father had fallen out with the Ba'ath party and was forced to flee the country.

he may not be political but his family certainly was

seamus · 07-09-2012 3:12pm

davet82 wrote: »

Would this be common practice for ex-pats from a country that the UK was at war with?
he may not be political but his family certainly was

I think you answered your own question there.

There were links of some description between him and the politics of Iraq. If he had just left Iraq just because he wanted to emigrate, he probably wouldn't have been that big an issue. But if he left under political pressure, then he may still have political links back to Iraq.
Perhaps not to Hussein, perhaps to another group, but it would still require them to pay attention for a while.
There also can't be that many Iraqis in the UK, maybe a few hundred families? So they could realistically keep tabs on them all for a while anyway.

Though I'm skeptical about the neighbour's story and wonder if he's just taking the opportunity to draw attention to himself. Surveillance agents rocking up and saying, "Hi, we'd like to spy on your neighbour, can we use your garden" doesn't seem like cutting-edge undercover work to me.

pickarooney · 07-09-2012 3:20pm

They probably ran out of bullets.

Bipolar Joe · 07-09-2012 3:23pm

pickarooney wrote: »

They probably ran out of bullets.

Trust the Creative Writing mod to come up with the least sensationalist and simplest reason.

humanji · 07-09-2012 3:27pm

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Trust the Creative Writing mod to come up with the least sensationalist and simplest reason.

Stop trolling or you'll be banned.

davet82 · 07-09-2012 3:38pm

seamus wrote: »

Though I'm skeptical about the neighbour's story and wonder if he's just taking the opportunity to draw attention to himself. Surveillance agents rocking up and saying, "Hi, we'd like to spy on your neighbour, can we use your garden" doesn't seem like cutting-edge undercover work to me.

sounds suspect to say the least alright :pac:

ArmaniJeanss · 07-09-2012 3:58pm

seamus wrote: »

There also can't be that many Iraqis in the UK, maybe a few hundred families? So they could realistically keep tabs on them all for a while anyway.

125,000 in London alone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Iraqis

Lollipops23 · 07-09-2012 4:13pm

I'd heard the 7 year old was hit in the shoulder. Seems very odd, why would they very clinically kill the adults at point blank range and then bash the child's head in? Makes no sense.

07-09-2012 4:14pm

I don't think anything about it at all makes sense.

gozunda · 07-09-2012 4:24pm

seamus wrote: »

Because it doesn't fit with the rest of the scene.
Three clinical executions, one murder with five bullets on target, four of them at range. Very clean, very professional murders.
And then a little girl who's been hit in the head with something and shot in the shoulder. A clumsy assault.

It's just weird.

With regard to the specific details of the shooting I would say that it amounted to what is termed Overkill: According to one news report each member of the family shot dead were shot with with two bullets to the head. The cyclist was then shot dead using 5 bullets. In criminal references Overkill tends to a feature in hate crimes or feuds. The shooting and beating of the child would also be an indication of this. Especially why the cyclist (no relation to the family) would be singled out with 5 shots is rather strange but then perhaps the shooter panicked - I dont think a professional would get that messy imo

Another strange detail is that the young girl found outside the car by the other cyclist and yet he had to smash the drivers side window as the car was locked in order to check whether anyone was alive. Who locked the car with the child outside?

davet82 · 07-09-2012 4:27pm

gozunda wrote: »

Another strange detail is that the young girl found outside the car by the other cyclist and yet he had to smash the drivers side window as the car was locked in order to check whether anyone was alive. Who locked the car with the child outside?

maybe the young girl locked herself in the car?

the car was still running when the second cyclist arrived

its very strange, if this isnt solved the case will be ledgendary

07-09-2012 4:29pm

gozunda wrote: »

Who locked the car with the child outside?

That's curious; though since he would have approached the driver's side to turn off the engine, must have found that door locked, coming across a scene like that you're unlikely to try all the other doors and climb in to do the job, aren't you?

seamus · 07-09-2012 4:41pm

gozunda wrote: »

Especially why the cyclist (no relation to the family) would be singled out with 5 shots is rather strange but then perhaps the shooter panicked

He would have been at range, so the shooter would have to aim for the body. One, two or even three shots may not have been enough to stop the cyclist from fleeing. I don't find the five shots all that surprising if his aim is to kill the guy.

Who locked the car with the child outside?

A lot of modern vehicles have an auto-lock feature which prevent the doors from being opened from the outside. A passenger can open the door to get out, but the door will lock again when it's closed. Whether it will lock on a BMW when the engine is running but stationary, I don't know.

Chuck Stone · 07-09-2012 4:54pm

Mossad would have done a much more clinical execution if they wanted the Father - this is family shit imo.

M cebee · 07-09-2012 5:13pm

the cyclist was executed but the girl was spared
does that point to family conflict then as some have suggested?

Corkfeen · 07-09-2012 5:27pm

M cebee wrote: »

the cyclist was executed but the girl was spared
does that point to family conflict then as some have suggested?

The girl's survival strikes me as more of an accident. He had shot her once but i'm assuming that their attention was redirected to the cyclist and they simply assumed that the girl was dead. It's an awful affair to be honest, those children are never going to recover..

Missymoohaa · 07-09-2012 6:59pm

brimal wrote: »

Can you guys please give one piece of evidence, or even a motive, that suggests it was Mossad that carried this out?

Police are currently investigating a family feud involving money.

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud says "I won't say it was professional, what I will say is it was tremendous savagery. And what is certain is that somebody wanted to kill," he said.

Police also confirm 15 bullet casings were found at the scene. Is 3/4 bullets per victim too much for a professional hit?

The car doors were still locked, so I'd imagine some bullets were used to break the glass first before shooting the poor victims, 5 were used on the cyclist and the little 7 yr old was hit once in the shoulder, I'd imagine she tried to escape the car, pure speculation I know but that's my tuppence worth.

Missymoohaa · 07-09-2012 7:02pm

seamus wrote: »

He would have been at range, so the shooter would have to aim for the body. One, two or even three shots may not have been enough to stop the cyclist from fleeing. I don't find the five shots all that surprising if his aim is to kill the guy.

A lot of modern vehicles have an auto-lock feature which prevent the doors from being opened from the outside. A passenger can open the door to get out, but the door will lock again when it's closed. Whether it will lock on a BMW when the engine is running but stationary, I don't know.

My car is only a Yaris and doors lock automatically once the engine is started, you can release locks yourself from inside only and the locks only automatically release when engine is switched off, the BMW could have been like this.

Pottler · 07-09-2012 7:36pm

Feckin Jason Bournes off again. Or a Jason Bourne.:)

07-09-2012 8:12pm

Missymoohaa wrote: »

My car is only a Yaris and doors lock automatically once the engine is started, you can release locks yourself from inside only and the locks only automatically release when engine is switched off, the BMW could have been like this.

Same with a family member's Citroen C5 so I'd imagine a BMW would be the same.

Pottler · 07-09-2012 8:48pm

If it was a professional killing, perhaps the shooter draws the line at kids. He wouldn't be the first.

goodie2shoes · 07-09-2012 9:05pm

the reason the girls survived imho is the killer most probably thought he had killed the eldest one (maybe she was unconscious or played dead?), and he was unaware of the presence of the younger one (after all she hid from the Police for 8 hours).

a hit man/men would have been contracted to kill the entire family, and he/they thought they had done that.

whoever took out this contract will not be best pleased.

goodie2shoes · 07-09-2012 9:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Same with a family member's Citroen C5 so I'd imagine a BMW would be the same.

BMers only automatically lock from the inside, if they are set to do so. (the default position would be not to automatically lock).
and only then will they lock after the car has driven for about 50 yards.

at least that's how mine operates.

Pottler · 07-09-2012 9:16pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Mossad would have done a much more clinical execution if they wanted the Father - this is family shit imo.

Perhaps they occasionally "subbie" work out? Accuracy strongly suggests military but then in that region there's an awful lot of ex-military and national service types. It is far from easy to hit someone dead center of head when they're moving and to do it several times over requires a marksman. If the girl was running on uneven ground and stumbled or shifted as she ran, a round aimed center mass could easily hit a shoulder and be assumed a killing shot. Presumably also the cyclist, probably tired and not paying attention would have stumbled across the scene, pulled up short and then turned to flee, again, a hard target to hit hence the five shots(or there were multiple shooters and all loosed off a 3 round burst, some didn't hit). Dis-information would be to point blame elsewhere, ie, a family row, robbery or suchlike. Looks pretty clinical to me, ambush on a quiet road, no living witnesses(fail) and no suspects, clean get-away, almost.
Child living is probably a cause for a lot of discomfort somwhere at the moment. Someones getting a bollocking. Also, because the assumed scenario would be a close range multiple shooting, somthing light with a large mag and small caliber would be the choice, again, not the best when the range increases(hence the child surviving) and the cyclist taking multiple shots to stop him. Any mention of what caliber of weapon was used?
If the fleeing girl was dropped and hit her head hard on the way down, would that not explain the head injury? Or if she ran, fell, struck her head, adrenaline kicked in and she rose and ran again only to be shot and presumed dead/wounded and then the cyclist appearred, precluding a tidying up and finishing off. 5 is a lot of people to track and deal with even if there were multiple(likly 3 if ex-military?) shooters. If there was only one shooter, he's Rambo, or a version of it. If the target had security concerns at home and he was taken out whilst on holiday abroad, it point to either an organisation or a state act, simply for logistics, weapons, vehicles, comms all would have to be sourced or brought to the ambush site so that precludes commercial airlines/a family member and disposal of vehicles afterwards and exfil from the country would require documents and transport usually beyond the capacity of an individual. Other explanation is a local nutter, but nutters are never of this standard and usually feck up and miss. If the ex-RAF lad suddenly has a heart attack or crashes his car, it's fait a complis. Also, if Pottler vanishes, I leave everything to the cat!
A green 4*4 would fit the bill for ex-military(familiarity/creatures of habit), but speeding from the scene would not, it would be slow and calm. That road is also perfect, winding, semi-isolated with lots of blind turns. If they are a wealthy family and an enemy hired a killer it's the perfect location to choose and France is very porous when it comes to borders for a route out. You can go to a lot of places from there.

weldoninhio · 07-09-2012 11:12pm

Around the 2 shooters theory, my theory would be that there could have been 1 highly trained shooter, who took out the family in the car, with a driver/accomplice waiting.

As main shooter is taking out family, cyclist arrives, 2nd shooter, less skilled, gets out and shoots him 5 times (this would suggest he is not as cool under pressure/well-trained), he spots girl running away and shoots her hitting her in shoulder. He goes over to see if she is dead, doesn't want to touch her(DNA etc), so kicks her violently a few times. She doesn't make a sound/resist, he presumes she is dead, makes his way back to car, confirms that he has killed both other targets to main marksman, off they go.

hiram · 07-09-2012 11:19pm

Pottler wrote: »

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Mossad would have done a much more clinical execution if they wanted the Father - this is family shit imo.

Perhaps they occasionally "subbie" work out? Accuracy strongly suggests military but then in that region there's an awful lot of ex-military and national service types. It is far from easy to hit someone dead center of head when they're moving and to do it several times over requires a marksman. If the girl was running on uneven ground and stumbled or shifted as she ran, a round aimed center mass could easily hit a shoulder and be assumed a killing shot. Presumably also the cyclist, probably tired and not paying attention would have stumbled across the scene, pulled up short and then turned to flee, again, a hard target to hit hence the five shots(or there were multiple shooters and all loosed off a 3 round burst, some didn't hit). Dis-information would be to point blame elsewhere, ie, a family row, robbery or suchlike. Looks pretty clinical to me, ambush on a quiet road, no living witnesses(fail) and no suspects, clean get-away, almost.
Child living is probably a cause for a lot of discomfort somwhere at the moment. Someones getting a bollocking. Also, because the assumed scenario would be a close range multiple shooting, somthing light with a large mag and small caliber would be the choice, again, not the best when the range increases(hence the child surviving) and the cyclist taking multiple shots to stop him. Any mention of what caliber of weapon was used?
If the fleeing girl was dropped and hit her head hard on the way down, would that not explain the head injury? Or if she ran, fell, struck her head, adrenaline kicked in and she rose and ran again only to be shot and presumed dead/wounded and then the cyclist appearred, precluding a tidying up and finishing off. 5 is a lot of people to track and deal with even if there were multiple(likly 3 if ex-military?) shooters. If there was only one shooter, he's Rambo, or a version of it. If the target had security concerns at home and he was taken out whilst on holiday abroad, it point to either an organisation or a state act, simply for logistics, weapons, vehicles, comms all would have to be sourced or brought to the ambush site so that precludes commercial airlines/a family member and disposal of vehicles afterwards and exfil from the country would require documents and transport usually beyond the capacity of an individual. Other explanation is a local nutter, but nutters are never of this standard and usually feck up and miss. If the ex-RAF lad suddenly has a heart attack or crashes his car, it's fait a complis. Also, if Pottler vanishes, I leave everything to the cat!
A green 4*4 would fit the bill for ex-military(familiarity/creatures of habit), but speeding from the scene would not, it would be slow and calm. That road is also perfect, winding, semi-isolated with lots of blind turns. If they are a wealthy family and an enemy hired a killer it's the perfect location to choose and France is very porous when it comes to borders for a route out. You can go to a lot of places from there.[/Qote]

Very insightful. Familiar train of thought.

goodie2shoes · 07-09-2012 11:36pm

the HOW is largely incidental imo, the WHY is the big question.

my mind is totally open to all possibilities, as should be the coppers, as to be otherwise will compromise their investigation.

any and all theories ought to be considered.

eg. right-wing nutters, drug dealers, family feud, Mossad, Iraqi bad-blood, lone pshchopath, disaffected ex-business associate etc.

most likely this crime may never be solved.:(

Pottler · 07-09-2012 11:42pm

goodie2shoes wrote: »

the HOW is largely incidental imo, the WHY is the big question.

my mind is totally open to all possibilities, as should be the coppers, as to be otherwise will compromise their investigation.

any and all theories ought to be considered.

eg. right-wing nutters, drug dealers, family feud, Mossad, Iraqi bad-blood, lone pshchopath, disaffected ex-business associate etc.

most likely this crime may never be solved.:(

Ah, it'll be solved, always is. We might not be informed of the fact though. Mushroom factor might be applied.

Wade in the Sea · 08-09-2012 12:13am

Wonder if he knew David Kelly?

Pottler · 08-09-2012 12:17am

Wade in the Sea wrote: »

Wonder if he knew David Kelly?

Unlikly they'd use the same cowboys twice.:D Never know though. There's some lad from Essex in a Focus with no VIM's reading this on a new, unreleased Nokia via satellite with a big scowl on his face as we speak, no doubt.

wendell borton · 08-09-2012 12:31am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

He worked in the aeronautical industry and was born in Baghdad, and seems to have fled Iraq during the last few years of Saddams reign.

'Aeronautical' is often a code word for other things, so possibly a nuclear or weapons scientist?

Not the first engineer to have worked for Iraq to die in mysterious circumstance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Bull#Assassination.

Degag · 08-09-2012 12:47am

Pottler wrote: »

Feckin Jason Bournes off again. Or a Jason Bourne.:)

If for the fact he were not in prison, i'd be thinking Carlos.

Pottler · 08-09-2012 12:51am

Degag wrote: »

If for the fact he were not in prison, i'd be thinking Carlos.

Carlos was a wannabe.:D Spoilt too. Waay overrated.

Shooting in the French Alps

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