Navan rail

stop · 18-02-2021 11:24pm

poker--addict wrote: »

Meath Co Council running a survey now. link below.

https://www.meath.ie/council/news/phase-2-navan-rail-line-resisdents-survey

Diagram showing "Clonsilla to Pace line under construction" says a lot about Meath County Council's attitude to rail.

ncounties · 19-02-2021 8:39am

Here's hoping if it goes ahead, they see sense and go with Option 2.

Rulmeq · 19-02-2021 11:03am

ncounties wrote: »

Here's hoping if it goes ahead, they see sense and go with Option 2.

What's the benefit of option 2? Closer to the town?

tabbey · 19-02-2021 11:47am

ncounties wrote: »

Here's hoping if it goes ahead, they see sense and go with Option 2.

Why do you say that?

ncounties · 19-02-2021 9:41pm

Because the station in Option 1 would be here, 2.5km as the crow flies or 3.2km using the available roads/pavements from the centre of the villiage. Option 2 will actually be close to the village and be of more benefit to those in Ratoath as well.

Rulmeq · 20-02-2021 10:13am

ncounties wrote: »

Because the station in Option 1 would be here, 2.5km as the crow flies or 3.2km using the available roads/pavements from the centre of the villiage. Option 2 will actually be close to the village and be of more benefit to those in Ratoath as well.

The Victorians really liked to build stations far away from towns. Does make you wonder if we shouldn't just be abandoning the old routes (use them as greenways) and creating new faster, straighter, better routes instead (without level crossings).

Zebra3 · 20-02-2021 12:06pm

stop wrote: »

Diagram showing "Clonsilla to Pace line under construction" says a lot about Meath County Council's attitude to rail.

And Option 2 has a Dunshauglin West station north of the town. :rolleyes:

CrabRevolution · 20-02-2021 12:12pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There a real institutional anti rail sentiment in Ireland which is strange because we never had the 'benefits' of the marshel plan and parts of Europe that did seem to have the opposite attitude, a bit of a paradox really. The criteria used by the consultants who carry out the feasibility studies are of course lead to the answer the client wants, directly or indirectly. It's just up to them to crunch the numbers to justify it or not. That's why you get basically no new rail routes in the country.

There is of course a very real and strong case for rail to Navan, the biggest technical problem is providing sufficient rail capacity for Navan trains on the Dublin end. Of course trains would be wedged from it's opening. We have never over provided public transport so I don't know why there's such a great fear of it happening. If we do over-provide public transport someday, give it 5 years and it'll be heaving. This project isn't just about Navan either, Dunshaulin, Ratoath and Ashourne are all significant commuter settlements. Also lots of connecting potential for onward journeys to Trim, Kells, Cavan etc. for those that don't want to brave the traffic in Phibsboro.

Navan isn't alone in this, there is also plenty of justification for restoring rail to southwest county Cork, that line was actually turning a profit when they ripped it up in in 1961.

There's also considerable demand for Derry-Letterkenny journeys, and Cork-Limerick journeys but just no investment offered. There isn't even a decent Naas-Sallins shuttle service.

According to anecdote, every single line in Ireland was making a profit before it was shut....

CatInABox · 20-02-2021 10:57pm

ncounties wrote: »

Because the station in Option 1 would be here, 2.5km as the crow flies or 3.2km using the available roads/pavements from the centre of the villiage. Option 2 will actually be close to the village and be of more benefit to those in Ratoath as well.

Option 2 is the one that I'd go with as well, but it would fairly constrain the town, Dunshaughlin would be jammed between the motorway and the railway line. Not the end of the world, but it'll certainly have an effect on the towns future development.

AngryLips · 21-02-2021 1:45am

CatInABox wrote: »

Option 2 is the one that I'd go with as well, but it would fairly constrain the town, Dunshaughlin would be jammed between the motorway and the railway line. Not the end of the world, but it'll certainly have an effect on the towns future development.

Well you'd hope that the future development would follow the rail line so that future stations can be added to it, that would be the sensible option.

Geog1234 · 21-02-2021 11:41pm

The chaps from the Irish Rail design team visited Navan around ten years ago to facilitate public information sessions about the line. Knew their stuff and I learned the line speed would be 70mph.

Would like to see this notched up to 75/80mph plus wouldn't agree with a new central station - there is nothing amiss with the existing Navan station - in fact several passenger trains ran to it (on the line from Drogheda) without issue - the likes of match specials as late as the 1990s.

With the railcar depot in Drogheda, if the direct line to Navan is built it's inevitable there will be empty passenger stock movements along the existing line. In an ideal world there would be a circular service, at least at peak hours.

tabbey · 22-02-2021 12:58am

Geog1234 wrote: »

wouldn't agree with a new central station - there is nothing amiss with the existing Navan station - in fact several passenger trains ran to it (on the line from Drogheda) without issue.

The existing navan station is on the GN line from Drogheda. The Meath line via dunboyne joined the GN line at navan junction, a short distance west of the existing station, but there is not really enough space there for a station with modern standards, hence the plans for a different location.

Captain Lugger · 22-02-2021 1:51am

Rulmeq wrote: »

The Victorians really liked to build stations far away from towns. Does make you wonder if we shouldn't just be abandoning the old routes (use them as greenways) and creating new faster, straighter, better routes instead (without level crossings).

It wasn’t a case of “liking” - it was the economics of the time. A lot of landowners wanted extortionate prices for access. Nowadays money is no object for roadbuilding, while it is fair to say that the same criteria isn’t applied to rail projects.

GerardKeating · 22-02-2021 11:51am

CatInABox wrote: »

Dunshaughlin would be jammed between the motorway and the railway line.

Could the town not be developed on both sides of the railway line.

ArmaniJeanss · 22-02-2021 12:11pm

Captain Lugger wrote: »

It wasn’t a case of “liking” - it was the economics of the time. A lot of landowners wanted extortionate prices for access.

Maybe it's an urban legend I fell for, but I always thought one of the reasons for so many stations being 'out of town' was that the local person who was putting up the money to have the rail come through an area wanted the station to be close to his house.
And as a relatively rich person his house would tend to be a few miles from the industrial area where the workers lived/worked/socialised.

stop · 22-02-2021 12:16pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Could the town not be developed on both sides of the railway line.

Never!

All shall be like Confey

Seth Brundle · 22-02-2021 12:22pm

The draft plan for Leixlip & Confey is to develop a large portion of the lands north of the canal & rail line.
http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/AllServices/Planning/LocalAreaPlans/LocalAreaPlans/LeixlipLocalAreaPlan2020-2023/SPIA%20Final%20Combined.pdf

Losty Dublin · 22-02-2021 2:52pm

Captain Lugger wrote: »

It wasn’t a case of “liking” - it was the economics of the time. A lot of landowners wanted extortionate prices for access.

In the case of some of the lines in the countryside, many of what are apparently rural stations were there primarily to carry agricultural produce so there wasn't a need to have the station serving the towns. Also, some stations served two or more towns and would be located between them; Rush and Lusk being one good example.

Rulmeq · 22-02-2021 3:36pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Maybe it's an urban legend I fell for, but I always thought one of the reasons for so many stations being 'out of town' was that the local person who was putting up the money to have the rail come through an area wanted the station to be close to his house.
And as a relatively rich person his house would tend to be a few miles from the industrial area where the workers lived/worked/socialised.

Also away from their houses or land, if they didn't like trains.
I think someone posted here before about how the canal came to pass the front gates of Carton House, costing loads of money and having to cut through unsuited land to get there.

cgcsb · 22-02-2021 4:20pm

In terms of service, a theoretical Navan Line would be branded as DART I assume? surely it would require faster trains given the long distance between stops.

1 train per 20 minutes is probably the max that can be accommodated(not bad for an outer suburban), along with every 20 mins to Maynooth (perhaps Kilcock eventually). So combined that's every 10 mins from Clonsilla inwards. That would be fine other than we have to squeeze Longford commuter and Sligo intercity in there also. There may need to be further work from Clonsilla inwards, perhaps a third track or some passing loop solution, maybe build a terminal for Sligo/Longford At Glasnevin DART/Metro station (it's more central than Heuston plus has the metro connection).

Where this gets very complex is, eventually any Navan rail serivce will mean calls to extend to Cavan (not a bad long term idea really), but that means intercity services and capacity in Dublin is in real trouble then.

joficeduns1 · 22-02-2021 4:51pm

Thankfully that new survey is better than the first. This is badly needed. We recently moved to Dunshaughlin and are familiar with the 109 route. There's hundreds (maybe thousands) of new residents here in the last 12 months and they will be getting the bus when offices reopen, that weren't getting the bus before. BE are in for a capacity shock whenever things get back to normal.

loyatemu · 22-02-2021 6:51pm

cgcsb wrote: »

1 train per 20 minutes is probably the max that can be accommodated(not bad for an outer suburban), along with every 20 mins to Maynooth (perhaps Kilcock eventually). So combined that's every 10 mins from Clonsilla inwards.

isn't Dart+ West being designed for a 5 minute frequency?

several hundred million to run 3 trains an hour is a hard sell.

goingnowhere · 22-02-2021 8:03pm

loyatemu wrote: »

isn't Dart+ West being designed for a 5 minute frequency?

several hundred million to run 3 trains an hour is a hard sell.

383,705,911 euro at 2008 prices to get to Navan

That doesn't include the trains

Peregrine · 23-02-2021 1:12am

loyatemu wrote: »

isn't Dart+ West being designed for a 5 minute frequency?

several hundred million to run 3 trains an hour is a hard sell.

15 trains per hour/4 min frequency east of Clonsilla. 2 trains per hour from Sligo, 5 trains per hour from M3 Parkway and 8 trains per hour from Maynooth. I don't see why the 5 M3 Parkway trains can't just go to Navan.

Rulmeq · 23-02-2021 9:22am

Peregrine wrote: »

2 trains per hour from Sligo

That sounds like a lot?

L1011 · 23-02-2021 10:07am

From 'Beyond Maynooth' might be a better term. Mullingar and Longford starters included.

roadmaster · 23-02-2021 11:02am

If there is going to be capacity issues could they not develop Docklands or the new Docklands in to a new main station that takes Dunboyne & Navan if it happens and everything west of Maynooth?

Zebra3 · 23-02-2021 1:56pm

roadmaster wrote: »

If there is going to be capacity issues could they not develop Docklands or the new Docklands in to a new main station that takes Dunboyne & Navan if it happens and everything west of Maynooth?

I think that’s the plan anyway but there’s still gonna be constraints between Clonsilla and the future Glasnevin station.

L1011 · 23-02-2021 2:03pm

A significantly % will be going to the re-sited Spencer Dock station.

AngryLips · 23-02-2021 2:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Where this gets very complex is, eventually any Navan rail serivce will mean calls to extend to Cavan (not a bad long term idea really), but that means intercity services and capacity in Dublin is in real trouble then.

There's not really enough population centres beyond Navan to warrant an extension like that though. Maybe as far as Kells ...but after that where? Virginia? Kingscourt/Carrickmacross?

thomas385 · 23-02-2021 3:07pm

AngryLips wrote: »

There's not really enough population centres beyond Navan to warrant an extension like that though. Maybe as far as Kells ...but after that where? Virginia? Kingscourt/Carrickmacross?

Pure pie in the sky stuff, but in a perfect world where rail infrastructure is promoted to no end, you could go from Kells up to Carrickmacross, on to Monaghan, across to Armagh and linking up at Portadown

cgcsb · 23-02-2021 3:37pm

AngryLips wrote: »

There's not really enough population centres beyond Navan to warrant an extension like that though. Maybe as far as Kells ...but after that where? Virginia? Kingscourt/Carrickmacross?

Not as a commuter service but perhaps as an intercity that would eventually connect the Northwest to Dublin.

The Luas system has developed as a patchwork of suburban extensions that were politically expedient, while disregarding capacity in central areas on the existing network. Same as the motorway network so if we start investing in rail, I'd expect it to go the same way. It's how we do things.

AngryLips · 23-02-2021 4:35pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Not as a commuter service but perhaps as an intercity that would eventually connect the Northwest to Dublin.

There'd need to be a city at the other end for such a service in fairness :P

cgcsb · 23-02-2021 5:08pm

AngryLips wrote: »

There'd need to be a city at the other end for such a service in fairness :P

Well we have Sligo and Westport services, so that's not always true.

ncounties · 23-02-2021 9:32pm

thomas385 wrote: »

Pure pie in the sky stuff, but in a perfect world where rail infrastructure is promoted to no end, you could go from Kells up to Carrickmacross, on to Monaghan, across to Armagh and linking up at Portadown

I think the only real "new" line we can expect in the Republic is Navan. I think the next focus after it, and DART expansion, would be DART Underground, Galway Dual Tracking, Northern Line widening and improvements, and Cork line improvements.

Hope we see Portadown - Armagh re instated in the North, and once the A5 is upgraded, more noise to see Derry, Strabane, and Omagh connected to Portadown, and onward services to both Dublin and Belfast.

Navan rail

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