Navan rail

Vic_08 · 16-02-2021 2:17am

poker--addict wrote: »

Hi Vic, it’s not my view, simply the argument that will be used to avoid investing the required cash. We can’t get a train to the airport let alone navan!!

Well, you said it.

If you want to present someone else's view then there are various ways to articulate that, you didn't utilise any of them.

The argument (whoever it is that is saying it) that Navan/Dunsaughlin doesn't generate much public transport use is simply not true, Navan road BE routes have been rammed in peak hours for decades.

Not to mention the utter sh!t show the roads are with car commuters.

The idea that Navan wouldn't justify a rail link is a crock, it would instantly be busier than many existing rail lines in the country.

I just had a good laugh reading the fantasy put out by those loo-laas wanting to have the state invest in resuming rail traffic on the south Wexford line, their argument included that route having a similar number of buses in a week that the N3 corridor generates in 2 peak hours.

Del.Monte · 16-02-2021 7:00am

Vic_08 wrote: »

Well, you said it.

If you want to present someone else's view then there are various ways to articulate that, you didn't utilise any of them.

The argument (whoever it is that is saying it) that Navan/Dunsaughlin doesn't generate much public transport use is simply not true, Navan road BE routes have been rammed in peak hours for decades.

Not to mention the utter sh!t show the roads are with car commuters.

The idea that Navan wouldn't justify a rail link is a crock, it would instantly be busier than many existing rail lines in the country.

I just had a good laugh reading the fantasy put out by those loo-laas wanting to have the state invest in resuming rail traffic on the south Wexford line, their argument included that route having a similar number of buses in a week that the N3 corridor generates in 2 peak hours.

Good man, nothing like making the argument for one line by deriding the efforts of others to get something they believe important reopened. Why don't you put the same effort into getting your railway to Navan? :rolleyes:

cgcsb · 18-02-2021 3:53pm

There a real institutional anti rail sentiment in Ireland which is strange because we never had the 'benefits' of the marshel plan and parts of Europe that did seem to have the opposite attitude, a bit of a paradox really. The criteria used by the consultants who carry out the feasibility studies are of course lead to the answer the client wants, directly or indirectly. It's just up to them to crunch the numbers to justify it or not. That's why you get basically no new rail routes in the country.

There is of course a very real and strong case for rail to Navan, the biggest technical problem is providing sufficient rail capacity for Navan trains on the Dublin end. Of course trains would be wedged from it's opening. We have never over provided public transport so I don't know why there's such a great fear of it happening. If we do over-provide public transport someday, give it 5 years and it'll be heaving. This project isn't just about Navan either, Dunshaulin, Ratoath and Ashourne are all significant commuter settlements. Also lots of connecting potential for onward journeys to Trim, Kells, Cavan etc. for those that don't want to brave the traffic in Phibsboro.

Navan isn't alone in this, there is also plenty of justification for restoring rail to southwest county Cork, that line was actually turning a profit when they ripped it up in in 1961.

There's also considerable demand for Derry-Letterkenny journeys, and Cork-Limerick journeys but just no investment offered. There isn't even a decent Naas-Sallins shuttle service.

poker--addict · 18-02-2021 5:29pm

Meath Co Council running a survey now. link below.

https://www.meath.ie/council/news/phase-2-navan-rail-line-resisdents-survey

Del.Monte · 18-02-2021 7:54pm

Dopey survey doesn't include people from outside the area who might travel to the town if there was a rail service. I haven't been near the place since I was involved in running two railtours on the existing branch the last "The Cavan Coup" in May 1990.

end of the road · 18-02-2021 8:34pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There a real institutional anti rail sentiment in Ireland which is strange because we never had the 'benefits' of the marshel plan and parts of Europe that did seem to have the opposite attitude, a bit of a paradox really. The criteria used by the consultants who carry out the feasibility studies are of course lead to the answer the client wants, directly or indirectly. It's just up to them to crunch the numbers to justify it or not. That's why you get basically no new rail routes in the country.

There is of course a very real and strong case for rail to Navan, the biggest technical problem is providing sufficient rail capacity for Navan trains on the Dublin end. Of course trains would be wedged from it's opening. We have never over provided public transport so I don't know why there's such a great fear of it happening. If we do over-provide public transport someday, give it 5 years and it'll be heaving. This project isn't just about Navan either, Dunshaulin, Ratoath and Ashourne are all significant commuter settlements. Also lots of connecting potential for onward journeys to Trim, Kells, Cavan etc. for those that don't want to brave the traffic in Phibsboro.

Navan isn't alone in this, there is also plenty of justification for restoring rail to southwest county Cork, that line was actually turning a profit when they ripped it up in in 1961.

There's also considerable demand for Derry-Letterkenny journeys, and Cork-Limerick journeys but just no investment offered. There isn't even a decent Naas-Sallins shuttle service.

it was apparently the tramore line that was making a profit when they ripped it up rather then west cork.
west cork was supposebly losing 20000 £ a year (granted, that was according to CIE) yet, they did it up just before closure.

Del.Monte · 18-02-2021 8:40pm

The Waterford & Tramore closure was laughable. A busy, busy line for commuters and holiday makers that in essence was no more than a 7 mile siding albeit isolated from the rest of the system - not that it had ever proved to be much of a problem. - Sorry for going off topic.

cgcsb · 18-02-2021 8:51pm

end of the road wrote: »

it was apparently the tramore line that was making a profit when they ripped it up rather then west cork.
west cork was supposebly losing 20000 £ a year (granted, that was according to CIE) yet, they did it up just before closure.

If you look at how chockers the N71 is all of the time now, it's clear it was very short sighted. It must have surely seemed short sighted at the time. Kinsale is also fairly chockers.

end of the road · 18-02-2021 10:14pm

cgcsb wrote: »

If you look at how chockers the N71 is all of the time now, it's clear it was very short sighted. It must have surely seemed short sighted at the time. Kinsale is also fairly chockers.

there were protests at the time.
certainly short sighted to close the main line, i don't know if the branches could have been saved though.

Slippin Jimmy · 18-02-2021 10:15pm

Filled in the survey.

stop · 18-02-2021 11:24pm

poker--addict wrote: »

Meath Co Council running a survey now. link below.

https://www.meath.ie/council/news/phase-2-navan-rail-line-resisdents-survey

Diagram showing "Clonsilla to Pace line under construction" says a lot about Meath County Council's attitude to rail.

ncounties · 19-02-2021 8:39am

Here's hoping if it goes ahead, they see sense and go with Option 2.

Rulmeq · 19-02-2021 11:03am

ncounties wrote: »

Here's hoping if it goes ahead, they see sense and go with Option 2.

What's the benefit of option 2? Closer to the town?

tabbey · 19-02-2021 11:47am

ncounties wrote: »

Here's hoping if it goes ahead, they see sense and go with Option 2.

Why do you say that?

ncounties · 19-02-2021 9:41pm

Because the station in Option 1 would be here, 2.5km as the crow flies or 3.2km using the available roads/pavements from the centre of the villiage. Option 2 will actually be close to the village and be of more benefit to those in Ratoath as well.

Rulmeq · 20-02-2021 10:13am

ncounties wrote: »

Because the station in Option 1 would be here, 2.5km as the crow flies or 3.2km using the available roads/pavements from the centre of the villiage. Option 2 will actually be close to the village and be of more benefit to those in Ratoath as well.

The Victorians really liked to build stations far away from towns. Does make you wonder if we shouldn't just be abandoning the old routes (use them as greenways) and creating new faster, straighter, better routes instead (without level crossings).

Zebra3 · 20-02-2021 12:06pm

stop wrote: »

Diagram showing "Clonsilla to Pace line under construction" says a lot about Meath County Council's attitude to rail.

And Option 2 has a Dunshauglin West station north of the town. :rolleyes:

CrabRevolution · 20-02-2021 12:12pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There a real institutional anti rail sentiment in Ireland which is strange because we never had the 'benefits' of the marshel plan and parts of Europe that did seem to have the opposite attitude, a bit of a paradox really. The criteria used by the consultants who carry out the feasibility studies are of course lead to the answer the client wants, directly or indirectly. It's just up to them to crunch the numbers to justify it or not. That's why you get basically no new rail routes in the country.

There is of course a very real and strong case for rail to Navan, the biggest technical problem is providing sufficient rail capacity for Navan trains on the Dublin end. Of course trains would be wedged from it's opening. We have never over provided public transport so I don't know why there's such a great fear of it happening. If we do over-provide public transport someday, give it 5 years and it'll be heaving. This project isn't just about Navan either, Dunshaulin, Ratoath and Ashourne are all significant commuter settlements. Also lots of connecting potential for onward journeys to Trim, Kells, Cavan etc. for those that don't want to brave the traffic in Phibsboro.

Navan isn't alone in this, there is also plenty of justification for restoring rail to southwest county Cork, that line was actually turning a profit when they ripped it up in in 1961.

There's also considerable demand for Derry-Letterkenny journeys, and Cork-Limerick journeys but just no investment offered. There isn't even a decent Naas-Sallins shuttle service.

According to anecdote, every single line in Ireland was making a profit before it was shut....

CatInABox · 20-02-2021 10:57pm

ncounties wrote: »

Because the station in Option 1 would be here, 2.5km as the crow flies or 3.2km using the available roads/pavements from the centre of the villiage. Option 2 will actually be close to the village and be of more benefit to those in Ratoath as well.

Option 2 is the one that I'd go with as well, but it would fairly constrain the town, Dunshaughlin would be jammed between the motorway and the railway line. Not the end of the world, but it'll certainly have an effect on the towns future development.

AngryLips · 21-02-2021 1:45am

CatInABox wrote: »

Option 2 is the one that I'd go with as well, but it would fairly constrain the town, Dunshaughlin would be jammed between the motorway and the railway line. Not the end of the world, but it'll certainly have an effect on the towns future development.

Well you'd hope that the future development would follow the rail line so that future stations can be added to it, that would be the sensible option.

Geog1234 · 21-02-2021 11:41pm

The chaps from the Irish Rail design team visited Navan around ten years ago to facilitate public information sessions about the line. Knew their stuff and I learned the line speed would be 70mph.

Would like to see this notched up to 75/80mph plus wouldn't agree with a new central station - there is nothing amiss with the existing Navan station - in fact several passenger trains ran to it (on the line from Drogheda) without issue - the likes of match specials as late as the 1990s.

With the railcar depot in Drogheda, if the direct line to Navan is built it's inevitable there will be empty passenger stock movements along the existing line. In an ideal world there would be a circular service, at least at peak hours.

tabbey · 22-02-2021 12:58am

Geog1234 wrote: »

wouldn't agree with a new central station - there is nothing amiss with the existing Navan station - in fact several passenger trains ran to it (on the line from Drogheda) without issue.

The existing navan station is on the GN line from Drogheda. The Meath line via dunboyne joined the GN line at navan junction, a short distance west of the existing station, but there is not really enough space there for a station with modern standards, hence the plans for a different location.

Captain Lugger · 22-02-2021 1:51am

Rulmeq wrote: »

The Victorians really liked to build stations far away from towns. Does make you wonder if we shouldn't just be abandoning the old routes (use them as greenways) and creating new faster, straighter, better routes instead (without level crossings).

It wasn’t a case of “liking” - it was the economics of the time. A lot of landowners wanted extortionate prices for access. Nowadays money is no object for roadbuilding, while it is fair to say that the same criteria isn’t applied to rail projects.

GerardKeating · 22-02-2021 11:51am

CatInABox wrote: »

Dunshaughlin would be jammed between the motorway and the railway line.

Could the town not be developed on both sides of the railway line.

ArmaniJeanss · 22-02-2021 12:11pm

Captain Lugger wrote: »

It wasn’t a case of “liking” - it was the economics of the time. A lot of landowners wanted extortionate prices for access.

Maybe it's an urban legend I fell for, but I always thought one of the reasons for so many stations being 'out of town' was that the local person who was putting up the money to have the rail come through an area wanted the station to be close to his house.
And as a relatively rich person his house would tend to be a few miles from the industrial area where the workers lived/worked/socialised.

stop · 22-02-2021 12:16pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Could the town not be developed on both sides of the railway line.

Never!

All shall be like Confey

Seth Brundle · 22-02-2021 12:22pm

The draft plan for Leixlip & Confey is to develop a large portion of the lands north of the canal & rail line.
http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/AllServices/Planning/LocalAreaPlans/LocalAreaPlans/LeixlipLocalAreaPlan2020-2023/SPIA%20Final%20Combined.pdf

Losty Dublin · 22-02-2021 2:52pm

Captain Lugger wrote: »

It wasn’t a case of “liking” - it was the economics of the time. A lot of landowners wanted extortionate prices for access.

In the case of some of the lines in the countryside, many of what are apparently rural stations were there primarily to carry agricultural produce so there wasn't a need to have the station serving the towns. Also, some stations served two or more towns and would be located between them; Rush and Lusk being one good example.

Rulmeq · 22-02-2021 3:36pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Maybe it's an urban legend I fell for, but I always thought one of the reasons for so many stations being 'out of town' was that the local person who was putting up the money to have the rail come through an area wanted the station to be close to his house.
And as a relatively rich person his house would tend to be a few miles from the industrial area where the workers lived/worked/socialised.

Also away from their houses or land, if they didn't like trains.
I think someone posted here before about how the canal came to pass the front gates of Carton House, costing loads of money and having to cut through unsuited land to get there.

cgcsb · 22-02-2021 4:20pm

In terms of service, a theoretical Navan Line would be branded as DART I assume? surely it would require faster trains given the long distance between stops.

1 train per 20 minutes is probably the max that can be accommodated(not bad for an outer suburban), along with every 20 mins to Maynooth (perhaps Kilcock eventually). So combined that's every 10 mins from Clonsilla inwards. That would be fine other than we have to squeeze Longford commuter and Sligo intercity in there also. There may need to be further work from Clonsilla inwards, perhaps a third track or some passing loop solution, maybe build a terminal for Sligo/Longford At Glasnevin DART/Metro station (it's more central than Heuston plus has the metro connection).

Where this gets very complex is, eventually any Navan rail serivce will mean calls to extend to Cavan (not a bad long term idea really), but that means intercity services and capacity in Dublin is in real trouble then.

Navan rail

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