Navan rail

CatInABox

disposableFish wrote: »

Do they still own the land beside docklands station?
It's close enough to both the Sligo and Northern lines that it could be connected with fairly minor rejigging.

Maybe I'm being a bit naive here but if they wanted to reduce demand on Connolly couldn't they just build a proper station at dockland and have it serve as terminus. It wouldn't solve some of the problems, but it should stop Connolly itself being a bottle-neck.

It could even have offices built on top as has been done elsewhere.

There's a question mark over the future of the current Docklands station, as the passenger numbers there haven't been what they expected at all. Hardly surprising, to be all that honest, what with it being relatively out of the way and close to some unsavoury locations.

They're currently deciding on if they should move it, with the new location being down beside park lane, where the Europcar place is. In my mind, that'd be a great place, but they should also keep the current docklands station as well, it'd be handy to have in the future.

cgcsb

I'm beginning to think that we will not see the station relocated to europcar. CIE have taken on their own designers for the dart expansion plan, under the dead hand of CIE management means little will materialise from this, eventually a consultant will be taken on and at that stage the budget will only get us the hybrid trains and a few closed level crossings Also with the UK now in recession there'll be talk of recession here soon enough so we cam forget the cap ex budget for public transport being close to what has been promised. We seen the liffey cycle route publicly canned this weekend due to budget constraints and it looks bad for metrolink. A paired back bus connects, 10 minute darts, 24 hr buses, luas bxd, some closed level crossongs and hybrid trains will probably be the extent of pt improvements during this economic cycle. And actually thats not half bad compared to the previous economic boom. Almost a century behind the capitald of Europe though

L1011

CatInABox wrote: »

There's a question mark over the future of the current Docklands station, as the passenger numbers there haven't been what they expected at all. Hardly surprising, to be all that honest, what with it being relatively out of the way and close to some unsavoury locations.

They're currently deciding on if they should move it, with the new location being down beside park lane, where the Europcar place is. In my mind, that'd be a great place, but they should also keep the current docklands station as well, it'd be handy to have in the future.

The peak time services are completely rammed in the peak direction. Were they expecting people to hang off the outsides?

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that we will not see the station relocated to europcar. CIE have taken on their own designers for the dart expansion plan, under the dead hand of CIE management means little will materialise from this, eventually a consultant will be taken on and at that stage the budget will only get us the hybrid trains and a few closed level crossings Also with the UK now in recession there'll be talk of recession here soon enough so we cam forget the cap ex budget for public transport being close to what has been promised. We seen the liffey cycle route publicly canned this weekend due to budget constraints and it looks bad for metrolink. A paired back bus connects, 10 minute darts, 24 hr buses, luas bxd, some closed level crossongs and hybrid trains will probably be the extent of pt improvements during this economic cycle. And actually thats not half bad compared to the previous economic boom. Almost a century behind the capitald of Europe though

Last boom gave us the original two Luas lines, double tracking of Clonsilla-Maynooth, and M3/Pace extension. Just off the top of my head.

marno21

Zebra3 wrote: »

Last boom gave us the original two Luas lines, double tracking of Clonsilla-Maynooth, and M3/Pace extension. Just off the top of my head.

Four tracking of the Kildare line also

Ginger83

Other issues too such as people outside Navan claimed trackline as their property yrs ago.

cgcsb

Zebra3 wrote: »

Last boom gave us the original two Luas lines, double tracking of Clonsilla-Maynooth, and M3/Pace extension. Just off the top of my head.

It also gave us one of the world's most extensive motorway networks per head. This boom and bust will naturally be smaller in scale though

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

It also gave us one of the world's most extensive motorway networks per head. This boom and bust will naturally be smaller in scale though

Famous last words... :pac:

Agent_47

CatInABox wrote: »

There's a question mark over the future of the current Docklands station, as the passenger numbers there haven't been what they expected at all. Hardly surprising, to be all that honest, what with it being relatively out of the way and close to some unsavoury locations.

They're currently deciding on if they should move it, with the new location being down beside park lane, where the Europcar place is. In my mind, that'd be a great place, but they should also keep the current docklands station as well, it'd be handy to have in the future.

Docklands trains are packed to the gills. When the the four high rise blocks are finished it'll be like getting a train in Mumbai

Agent_47

In all seriousness we need to get the most from this review as it is over 10 year's since the last one. Anyone know what we need to do to sway thinking and the Meath public on board?

cougar

Docklands station will only get busier with the amount of building currently going on in the area. Obviously extra capacity will address some of the overcrowding issues during peak times. I'd expect a rail link to Navan would be massively popular at peak times. However, with our track record of delivering expensive infrastructure projects it's likely this project will keep getting deferred as there is no political will to deliver it.

roadmaster

L1011 wrote: »

The peak time services are completely rammed in the peak direction. Were they expecting people to hang off the outsides?

This is one thing I don’t understand is I have heard several people saying it’s not busy yet anytime I use it like you say the trains are rammed with people in. Besides it does not operate between 10 and 4 so that’s bound to hit the figures

L1011

roadmaster wrote: »

This is one thing I don’t understand is I have heard several people saying it’s not busy yet anytime I use it like you say the trains are rammed with people in. Besides it does not operate between 10 and 4 so that’s bound to hit the figures

The anti-peak direction is vastly less busy than Maynooth Connolly trains but that's because they serve Maynooth mostly - the college provides the reverse time flow. Also no connections to DART.

Even the last train in and the first train out are busy in the peak direction, with the core ones crush capacity Monday-Thursday at least

tara83

I've noticed an increase in the anti peak direction in the last year. Not major but definitely more than previous

roadmaster

roadmaster wrote: »

This is one thing I don’t understand is I have heard several people saying it’s not busy yet anytime I use it like you say the trains are rammed with people in. Besides it does not operate between 10 and 4 so that’s bound to hit the figures

I get the 6.50 train from the m3 and it's jammed every morning by Ashfield. I get off at broombridge and it's difficult to actually get off at that station if you're halfway down a carriage. In the evening I have arrived at Docklands to find the train packed and more people trying to get on. If a train service was available from Navan I'd use it rather than driving 30 minutes to the M3, but given that the train service from Navan was supposed to be available by the time the motorway was completed as an alternative, I won't be holding my breath.

Agent_47

L1011 wrote: »

The anti-peak direction is vastly less busy than Maynooth Connolly trains but that's because they serve Maynooth mostly - the college provides the reverse time flow. Also no connections to DART.

Even the last train in and the first train out are busy in the peak direction, with the core ones crush capacity Monday-Thursday at least

I'd imagine when the train first went to Maynoth it was not as busy as it is now.

Seth Brundle

DubInMeath wrote: »

If a train service was available from Navan I'd use it rather than driving 30 minutes to the M3, but given that the train service from Navan was supposed to be available by the time the motorway was completed as an alternative, I won't be holding my breath.

Didn't the motorway design and construction pretty much signal the death of any possibility if reopening the train line to Navan?

marno21

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Didn't the motorway design and construction pretty much signal the death of any possibility if reopening the train line to Navan?

Funny how that logic never seemed to apply when a motorway was built between Limerick and Tuam.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Didn't the motorway design and construction pretty much signal the death of any possibility if reopening the train line to Navan?

It was stated at the time given that the m3 has two toll points that the train line would be an alternative to those not wanting to pay the tolls.

The tolls can be bypassed of course, but to try and do so for the Dunboyne one in the morning/evening adds about 30 minutes onto your trip each way most days in my experience.

Edit-- Going by memory on this and open to correction, because at the time of the M3 was going through the planning and building phases, I didn't live in Meath and didn't think that I would be, but do have a memory of a politician saying the above on the news, but then again that could have just been typical political talk or faulty memory on my behalf.

Seth Brundle

OK. I had a memory of any new overpasses for a train being too steep or something.

CatInABox

L1011 wrote: »

The peak time services are completely rammed in the peak direction. Were they expecting people to hang off the outsides?

I'd expect that any extension out to Navan would be started/completed after the Dart Expansion has electrified the line out to M3 Parkway. This would mean that trains would be more frequent and larger than the ones currently used on that line.

magicbastarder

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Didn't the motorway design and construction pretty much signal the death of any possibility if reopening the train line to Navan?

you mean where the old line would have crossed the now M3 at junction 8?

L1011

CatInABox wrote: »

I'd expect that any extension out to Navan would be started/completed after the Dart Expansion has electrified the line out to M3 Parkway. This would mean that trains would be more frequent and larger than the ones currently used on that line.

I mean people who are claiming the existing services are underused

Seth Brundle

magicbastarder wrote: »

you mean where the old line would have crossed the now M3 at junction 8?

Possibly but tbh I don't recall fully but I think there was one somewhere near Dunboyne also.

magicbastarder

i think the one near dunboyne can hook up with the M3 parkway station without crossing the motorway.

L1011

The headshunt already runs through that junction in a box, it's the dunshauglin bridge that's a problem

CatInABox

L1011 wrote: »

The headshunt already runs through that junction in a box, it's the dunshauglin bridge that's a problem

Yeah, that'd require some work alright, but it's not insurmountable. The road is wide enough that you could close half of it and only slightly impact on traffic going over it. Finish the works on that side, including raising the road, reopen that side and transfer the works to the other side.

The existing alignment will require some work for sure, and there's some places where it will just have to deviate, but it's still probably easier than coming up with an entirely new alignment.

trellheim

The old alignment can be viewed by looking at http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html

and using Data Catalogue -> Base Information and mapping -> tick the box beside Historic Map 25 inch (1888-1913)

marno21

Alignment also visible here

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

ncounties

Meath County Council sharing a survey related to the reopening of the line on multiple social media accounts.Twitter post below, but importantly on Facebook, they state that if a decision was made to proceed, the line could be operational by 2026.

https://twitter.com/meathcoco/status/1357026235306692609?s=20

Rulmeq

ncounties wrote: »

Meath County Council sharing a survey related to the reopening of the line on multiple social media accounts.Twitter post below, but importantly on Facebook, they state that if a decision was made to proceed, the line could be operational by 2026.

https://twitter.com/meathcoco/status/1357026235306692609?s=20

That's some spotless ballast in that photo.
The survey is kind of bad, single answer options to questions that can have multiple answers (What do you go to Dublin for, 6 answers, but a radio button to allow single selection). It also doesn't seem to have any real direction, so it's really difficult to figure out what they are trying to discover.

ncounties

Rulmeq wrote: »

That's some spotless ballast in that photo.
The survey is kind of bad, single answer options to questions that can have multiple answers (What do you go to Dublin for, 6 answers, but a radio button to allow single selection). It also doesn't seem to have any real direction, so it's really difficult to figure out what they are trying to discover.

Oh god yeah, the survey was dreadful. "If you answered positively to the last question" but the question was on mode of transport?!

Whole thing would have been better just asking:

1. Where do you live?
2. How often do you usually travel along the along the route (i.e. between your hometown and Dublin)?
3. How do you travel now?
4. If a line was reinstated, would you use the train instead?

LuckyLloyd

Never going to be built, imo.

Slippin Jimmy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Never going to be built, imo.

I hope that you are wrong, but fear that you are right.

SeanW

They really need to figure out "if" there is demand? Has Meath Co. Co. (among others) failed to notice what's been happening in the Greater Dublin Area over the past 10-odd years? I guarantee that if the Navan line were built and the areas around the stations were rezoned high density residential, any service would be maxed out within 5 years, like every other short haul railway (DART, Commuter, Luas) into the city.

poker--addict

SeanW wrote: »

They really need to figure out "if" there is demand? Has Meath Co. Co. (among others) failed to notice what's been happening in the Greater Dublin Area over the past 10-odd years? I guarantee that if the Navan line were built and the areas around the stations were rezoned high density residential, any service would be maxed out within 5 years, like every other short haul railway (DART, Commuter, Luas) into the city.

True, but in the meantime the buses go several times an hour, are pretty fast usually, and are practically empty. "built it and they will come" springs to mind, but the current use of public transport is a great way for the powers that be to "prove" it is not needed.

Train should have been done with the motorway.

donvito99

poker--addict wrote: »

True, but in the meantime the buses go several times an hour, are pretty fast usually, and are practically empty. "built it and they will come" springs to mind, but the current use of public transport is a great way for the powers that be to "prove" it is not needed.

Train should have been done with the motorway.

Wasn't the 109/109X leaving people behind before it had gotten out of Navan pre-pandemic?

A single four car 29000 train would carry almost 800 people. Probably about 8-9 bus loads.

Slippin Jimmy

donvito99 wrote: »

Wasn't the 109/109X leaving people behind before it had gotten out of Navan pre-pandemic?

A single four car 29000 train would carry almost 800 people. Probably about 8-9 bus loads.

They'll probably use the NX as an excuse not to reopen the line. But the other services were leaving people behind.

Vic_08

poker--addict wrote: »

True, but in the meantime the buses go several times an hour, are pretty fast usually, and are practically empty. "built it and they will come" springs to mind, but the current use of public transport is a great way for the powers that be to "prove" it is not needed.

Either you are utterly clueless or you are intentionally misleading.

Maybe with covid related downturn Navan services are lightly loaded but that certainly wasn't the case before.

There were approx 40 buses, mostly double decker, mostly 75% or over full on the 109 group routes arriving in Dublin in the morning peak.

Off-peak and contra-peak medium-long commuter routes like these will always have much lower loadings, this is not proof of anything other than the obvious that peak demand is for 9-5 workers in the city.

poker--addict

Hi Vic, it’s not my view, simply the argument that will be used to avoid investing the required cash. We can’t get a train to the airport let alone navan!!

Vic_08

poker--addict wrote: »

Hi Vic, it’s not my view, simply the argument that will be used to avoid investing the required cash. We can’t get a train to the airport let alone navan!!

Well, you said it.

If you want to present someone else's view then there are various ways to articulate that, you didn't utilise any of them.


The argument (whoever it is that is saying it) that Navan/Dunsaughlin doesn't generate much public transport use is simply not true, Navan road BE routes have been rammed in peak hours for decades.

Not to mention the utter sh!t show the roads are with car commuters.

The idea that Navan wouldn't justify a rail link is a crock, it would instantly be busier than many existing rail lines in the country.

I just had a good laugh reading the fantasy put out by those loo-laas wanting to have the state invest in resuming rail traffic on the south Wexford line, their argument included that route having a similar number of buses in a week that the N3 corridor generates in 2 peak hours.

Del.Monte

Vic_08 wrote: »

Well, you said it.

If you want to present someone else's view then there are various ways to articulate that, you didn't utilise any of them.


The argument (whoever it is that is saying it) that Navan/Dunsaughlin doesn't generate much public transport use is simply not true, Navan road BE routes have been rammed in peak hours for decades.

Not to mention the utter sh!t show the roads are with car commuters.

The idea that Navan wouldn't justify a rail link is a crock, it would instantly be busier than many existing rail lines in the country.

I just had a good laugh reading the fantasy put out by those loo-laas wanting to have the state invest in resuming rail traffic on the south Wexford line, their argument included that route having a similar number of buses in a week that the N3 corridor generates in 2 peak hours.

Good man, nothing like making the argument for one line by deriding the efforts of others to get something they believe important reopened. Why don't you put the same effort into getting your railway to Navan? :rolleyes:

cgcsb

There a real institutional anti rail sentiment in Ireland which is strange because we never had the 'benefits' of the marshel plan and parts of Europe that did seem to have the opposite attitude, a bit of a paradox really. The criteria used by the consultants who carry out the feasibility studies are of course lead to the answer the client wants, directly or indirectly. It's just up to them to crunch the numbers to justify it or not. That's why you get basically no new rail routes in the country.

There is of course a very real and strong case for rail to Navan, the biggest technical problem is providing sufficient rail capacity for Navan trains on the Dublin end. Of course trains would be wedged from it's opening. We have never over provided public transport so I don't know why there's such a great fear of it happening. If we do over-provide public transport someday, give it 5 years and it'll be heaving. This project isn't just about Navan either, Dunshaulin, Ratoath and Ashourne are all significant commuter settlements. Also lots of connecting potential for onward journeys to Trim, Kells, Cavan etc. for those that don't want to brave the traffic in Phibsboro.

Navan isn't alone in this, there is also plenty of justification for restoring rail to southwest county Cork, that line was actually turning a profit when they ripped it up in in 1961.

There's also considerable demand for Derry-Letterkenny journeys, and Cork-Limerick journeys but just no investment offered. There isn't even a decent Naas-Sallins shuttle service.

poker--addict

Meath Co Council running a survey now. link below.


https://www.meath.ie/council/news/phase-2-navan-rail-line-resisdents-survey

Del.Monte

Dopey survey doesn't include people from outside the area who might travel to the town if there was a rail service. I haven't been near the place since I was involved in running two railtours on the existing branch the last "The Cavan Coup" in May 1990.

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

There a real institutional anti rail sentiment in Ireland which is strange because we never had the 'benefits' of the marshel plan and parts of Europe that did seem to have the opposite attitude, a bit of a paradox really. The criteria used by the consultants who carry out the feasibility studies are of course lead to the answer the client wants, directly or indirectly. It's just up to them to crunch the numbers to justify it or not. That's why you get basically no new rail routes in the country.

There is of course a very real and strong case for rail to Navan, the biggest technical problem is providing sufficient rail capacity for Navan trains on the Dublin end. Of course trains would be wedged from it's opening. We have never over provided public transport so I don't know why there's such a great fear of it happening. If we do over-provide public transport someday, give it 5 years and it'll be heaving. This project isn't just about Navan either, Dunshaulin, Ratoath and Ashourne are all significant commuter settlements. Also lots of connecting potential for onward journeys to Trim, Kells, Cavan etc. for those that don't want to brave the traffic in Phibsboro.

Navan isn't alone in this, there is also plenty of justification for restoring rail to southwest county Cork, that line was actually turning a profit when they ripped it up in in 1961.

There's also considerable demand for Derry-Letterkenny journeys, and Cork-Limerick journeys but just no investment offered. There isn't even a decent Naas-Sallins shuttle service.

it was apparently the tramore line that was making a profit when they ripped it up rather then west cork.
west cork was supposebly losing 20000 £ a year (granted, that was according to CIE) yet, they did it up just before closure.

Del.Monte

The Waterford & Tramore closure was laughable. A busy, busy line for commuters and holiday makers that in essence was no more than a 7 mile siding albeit isolated from the rest of the system - not that it had ever proved to be much of a problem. - Sorry for going off topic.

cgcsb

end of the road wrote: »

it was apparently the tramore line that was making a profit when they ripped it up rather then west cork.
west cork was supposebly losing 20000 £ a year (granted, that was according to CIE) yet, they did it up just before closure.

If you look at how chockers the N71 is all of the time now, it's clear it was very short sighted. It must have surely seemed short sighted at the time. Kinsale is also fairly chockers.

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

If you look at how chockers the N71 is all of the time now, it's clear it was very short sighted. It must have surely seemed short sighted at the time. Kinsale is also fairly chockers.

there were protests at the time.
certainly short sighted to close the main line, i don't know if the branches could have been saved though.

Slippin Jimmy

Filled in the survey.