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Navan rail

  • 16-11-2017 10:27pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭ tallaghtfornia


    Haven’t seen a tread on this in a long time - just wondering if bordies think the remainder of the navan rail line will ever be re laid ?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭ tabbey


    Probably, but it will be a long wait.

    At the moment the M3 motorway has great surplus capacity so there is no need for the rail restoration.

    At some time in the future, if long distance dormitory town development continues, there will be demand for re-instatement. It would not necessarily follow the historic route, but something like the Harcourt Street / Green line bastardisation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    In Dublin politically I think we're at a tipping point at which people are no longer going to accept dormitory towns and suburbanization as the future. We'll move to a model of denser and more central development, areas like Ringsend and Broombridge will see dense resi development, the whole dormer town thing will probably die off. In that context I don't see a DART link to Navan happening, it's too far from Central Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ Isambard


    cgcsb wrote: »
    In Dublin politically I think we're at a tipping point at which people are no longer going to accept dormitory towns and suburbanization as the future. We'll move to a model of denser and more central development, areas like Ringsend and Broombridge will see dense resi development, the whole dormer town thing will probably die off. In that context I don't see a DART link to Navan happening, it's too far from Central Dublin.

    no one wants that, compare with any City elsewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    cgcsb wrote: »
    In Dublin politically I think we're at a tipping point at which people are no longer going to accept dormitory towns and suburbanization as the future. We'll move to a model of denser and more central development, areas like Ringsend and Broombridge will see dense resi development, the whole dormer town thing will probably die off. In that context I don't see a DART link to Navan happening, it's too far from Central Dublin.

    Plenty of large cities in Europe have commuter towns located outside the city but they are connected by a high quality commuter rail network with an electrified network of double decker commuter trains. Navan should have a rail connection it is the 3rd largest town in Ireland.

    Its a pity our network dosen't have the loading gauge to allow double decker trains as they would almost double capacity on peak time trains without having to make trains longer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 MGWR


    tabbey wrote: »
    Probably, but it will be a long wait.

    At the moment the M3 motorway has great surplus capacity so there is no need for the rail restoration.

    At some time in the future, if long distance dormitory town development continues, there will be demand for re-instatement. It would not necessarily follow the historic route, but something like the Harcourt Street / Green line bastardisation.
    Alleged "surplus capacity" on a motorway is not an argument against restoration of a railway; indeed, any corridor that may require a motorway indicates a need for a railway option, not when a motorway becomes intolerably traffic-ridden. And such restorations have not been based on popular demand anyhow.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    tabbey wrote: »
    Probably, but it will be a long wait.

    At the moment the M3 motorway has great surplus capacity so there is no need for the rail restoration.

    At some time in the future, if long distance dormitory town development continues, there will be demand for re-instatement. It would not necessarily follow the historic route, but something like the Harcourt Street / Green line bastardisation.
    Lots of surplus capacity on the M3. Then you get to where the motorway ends at Clonee and smack bang into a massive jam back from the M50, which itself is jammed too.

    Plenty of spare motorway capacity on Co. Meath/Kildare/Wicklow but as you get close to Dublin that comes to an end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭✭✭ Evil-1


    marno21 wrote: »
    Lots of surplus capacity on the M3. Then you get to where the motorway ends at Clonee and smack bang into a massive jam back from the M50, which itself is jammed too.

    Plenty of spare motorway capacity on Co. Meath/Kildare/Wicklow but as you get close to Dublin that comes to an end.

    And that right there is not just the heart of the issue, but its also the perfect problem for a rail service to fix, a lot of that traffic would use a rail service if it were available.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭ tabbey


    marno21 wrote: »
    Lots of surplus capacity on the M3. Then you get to where the motorway ends at Clonee and smack bang into a massive jam back from the M50, which itself is jammed too.

    Plenty of spare motorway capacity on Co. Meath/Kildare/Wicklow but as you get close to Dublin that comes to an end.

    This is where the motorists should leave the M3 at Dunboyne M3 parkway. park their cars and get the train into town.

    The trouble is that NTA/IR have made it inconvenient by running the Dunboyne service as a branch, changing trains at Clonsilla.
    Changing from car to train at M3 Parkway would be grudgingly accepted, but another change ten minutes later is just too much.

    Instead of running a four car 2900 set with 10 or 12 passengers on a branch shuttle, a two car 2700 / 2800 going into the city centre directly, would be much more popular.

    Another problem is that the M3 toll plaza is just north of the rail terminus, so motorists transferring to rail have to pay the toll. If the toll point was south of the station, motorists would have an incentive to go for the train.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ Isambard


    makes sense to me


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    tabbey wrote: »
    This is where the motorists should leave the M3 at Dunboyne M3 parkway. park their cars and get the train into town.

    The trouble is that NTA/IR have made it inconvenient by running the Dunboyne service as a branch, changing trains at Clonsilla.
    Changing from car to train at M3 Parkway would be grudgingly accepted, but another change ten minutes later is just too much.

    Instead of running a four car 2900 set with 10 or 12 passengers on a branch shuttle, a two car 2700 / 2800 going into the city centre directly, would be much more popular.

    Another problem is that the M3 toll plaza is just north of the rail terminus, so motorists transferring to rail have to pay the toll. If the toll point was south of the station, motorists would have an incentive to go for the train.

    Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

    What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭ tallaghtfornia


    marno21 wrote: »
    Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

    What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

    Its madness that in a European capital that a Toll road can hamper a whole rail project to a major city in the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,595 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    might be better just to move the toll on further from the station. that way those who need to use the whole road pay the toll and those who wish to use the train can use it without being caught for a toll. it may be easier then trying to have a system which works out who is going to the station. but i don't know. what i do know is the current system needs to end.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ Isambard


    marno21 wrote: »
    Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

    What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

    Or free parking and free train transfer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭ sofireland


    tabbey wrote: »
    The trouble is that NTA/IR have made it inconvenient by running the Dunboyne service as a branch, changing trains at Clonsilla.
    Changing from car to train at M3 Parkway would be grudgingly accepted, but another change ten minutes later is just too much.

    When BE were on strike, i used the m3 parkway - reliable, it does go city centre - to docklands, which was a 15-20 minute walk to my office each way. There isn't the capacity for the train to go to connolly afaik. But more informed folk know more about that than me


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    marno21 wrote: »
    Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

    What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

    Could the toll be included in the taxsaver scheme? Eg you scan your leap card at the toll or even based on e-tagging.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Could the toll be included in the taxsaver scheme? Eg you scan your leap card at the toll or even based on e-tagging.
    Or deduct the price of the train ticket by the price of the toll.

    Although given the state of the N3/M50 I'm surprised it's not more popular. Having Luas BXD opening might help here too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭ Agent_47


    The M3 Parkway has 1200 car spaces but only circa 500 to 600 are used daily. it has 2 paltry electric charge points located 2/3 of the car park away from the station.

    On a regular day the service is full by the 1st stop at Dunboyne. At the end of the line one has a wait of over 5 mins to exit the station due to the volume of people passing through. constant apologies by IE train drivers over the use of 3 carriage as opposed to 4 carriage at rush hour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭ tabbey


    sofireland wrote: »
    i used the m3 parkway - reliable, it does go city centre - to docklands, which was a 15-20 minute walk to my office each way. There isn't the capacity for the train to go to connolly afaik. But more informed folk know more about that than me

    It only runs through during peak hours, off peak, you have to change trains at Clonsilla.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,710 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    Its madness that in a European capital that a Toll road can hamper a whole rail project to a major city in the country.

    Nothing mad about it at all.

    NTR’s profits a FF priority.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,508 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    Agent_47 wrote: »
    The M3 Parkway has 1200 car spaces but only circa 500 to 600 are used daily. it has 2 paltry electric charge points located 2/3 of the car park away from the station.

    bit off topic, but are people really likely to be charging their car at a P&R? Would you want people parking up at 8am and leaving their car on charge until 6pm anyway - people would just take advantage of the free charging. I'd have thought the vast majority of people arriving at the carpark will be coming from home where they will already have charged up


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ cython


    loyatemu wrote: »
    bit off topic, but are people really likely to be charging their car at a P&R? Would you want people parking up at 8am and leaving their car on charge until 6pm anyway - people would just take advantage of the free charging. I'd have thought the vast majority of people arriving at the carpark will be coming from home where they will already have charged up

    Depends on how close they live. Providing charging points makes a long round trip commute to the station that might otherwise be dicey a lot more feasible in an electric car, and considering this station is beside a motorway, it should not be assumed that passengers will be coming from around the corner. Upper range for a Leaf appears to be 200km, for example, or 125 miles - while 50 one way miles is a long enough commute, it is unfortunately not unheard of and potentially gambling in a Leaf (traffic jams could eat further into that) if you can't charge during the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭ Agent_47


    loyatemu wrote: »
    bit off topic, but are people really likely to be charging their car at a P&R? Would you want people parking up at 8am and leaving their car on charge until 6pm anyway - people would just take advantage of the free charging. I'd have thought the vast majority of people arriving at the carpark will be coming from home where they will already have charged up

    They do and they are :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭ tara83


    They do and they are :)

    Is it bad I do have a little giggle seeing them park up at the chargers and walk the long distance to the train

    The train is already at capacity and I dread what it will be like with all the development in Hansfield


  • Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭ dermo888


    Of course it won't open. All thanks to that Traitorous Trimmer, Noel Dempsey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭ goingnowhere


    Just remember the park and ride was the be north of the toll but was ruled out.

    The railway was suddenly not worth it, even though it was obvious this would lead to higher demand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭ Agent_47


    Has to be a radical rethink on infrastructure and indeed the rail link for Navan. It is already getting too difficult to get in and out of the town.
    Around M3 Parkway traffic is bad, building at Hansfield is so extensive that it will shortly arrive at Sean Boylans door (watch that space).
    We took the motorway twice this week, going in is busy, trying to get off at M3 Parkway junction is murder with speeding roundabout traffic. Had to take motorway home as the roundabout was choked with traffic.
    Long will be the day I can walk to a train in Navan and forget about the car ...


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Has to be a radical rethink on infrastructure and indeed the rail link for Navan. It is already getting too difficult to get in and out of the town.
    Around M3 Parkway traffic is bad, building at Hansfield is so extensive that it will shortly arrive at Sean Boylans door (watch that space).
    We took the motorway twice this week, going in is busy, trying to get off at M3 Parkway junction is murder with speeding roundabout traffic. Had to take motorway home as the roundabout was choked with traffic.
    Long will be the day I can walk to a train in Navan and forget about the car ...
    No surprise M3 Parkway junction is busy between Dunboyne north traffic, traffic from all the settlements around the junction, the train station and of course, all the toll dodgers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,889 ✭✭✭ Third_Echelon


    They have been talking about this Navan line since the 80s/early 90s. It made sense then and makes even more sense now... Just after the toll is where the traffic starts, which others have stated. Needs to be done...


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Lots of things that need to be done though. That's the problem.

    Ross said in the Dail at the minute that this isn't in plans that take Capital Investment forward to 2027. We won't see trains in Navan before 2035 if that's the case.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,014 ✭✭✭✭ LuckyLloyd


    As always, I ask why restoration of passenger services on the existing line via Drogheda (used daily by freight trains) isn’t an option?


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