Navan rail

tallaghtfornia

Haven’t seen a tread on this in a long time - just wondering if bordies think the remainder of the navan rail line will ever be re laid ?

tabbey

Probably, but it will be a long wait.

At the moment the M3 motorway has great surplus capacity so there is no need for the rail restoration.

At some time in the future, if long distance dormitory town development continues, there will be demand for re-instatement. It would not necessarily follow the historic route, but something like the Harcourt Street / Green line bastardisation.

cgcsb

In Dublin politically I think we're at a tipping point at which people are no longer going to accept dormitory towns and suburbanization as the future. We'll move to a model of denser and more central development, areas like Ringsend and Broombridge will see dense resi development, the whole dormer town thing will probably die off. In that context I don't see a DART link to Navan happening, it's too far from Central Dublin.

Isambard

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin politically I think we're at a tipping point at which people are no longer going to accept dormitory towns and suburbanization as the future. We'll move to a model of denser and more central development, areas like Ringsend and Broombridge will see dense resi development, the whole dormer town thing will probably die off. In that context I don't see a DART link to Navan happening, it's too far from Central Dublin.

no one wants that, compare with any City elsewhere.

Stephen15

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin politically I think we're at a tipping point at which people are no longer going to accept dormitory towns and suburbanization as the future. We'll move to a model of denser and more central development, areas like Ringsend and Broombridge will see dense resi development, the whole dormer town thing will probably die off. In that context I don't see a DART link to Navan happening, it's too far from Central Dublin.

Plenty of large cities in Europe have commuter towns located outside the city but they are connected by a high quality commuter rail network with an electrified network of double decker commuter trains. Navan should have a rail connection it is the 3rd largest town in Ireland.

Its a pity our network dosen't have the loading gauge to allow double decker trains as they would almost double capacity on peak time trains without having to make trains longer.

MGWR

tabbey wrote: »

Probably, but it will be a long wait.

At the moment the M3 motorway has great surplus capacity so there is no need for the rail restoration.

At some time in the future, if long distance dormitory town development continues, there will be demand for re-instatement. It would not necessarily follow the historic route, but something like the Harcourt Street / Green line bastardisation.

Alleged "surplus capacity" on a motorway is not an argument against restoration of a railway; indeed, any corridor that may require a motorway indicates a need for a railway option, not when a motorway becomes intolerably traffic-ridden. And such restorations have not been based on popular demand anyhow.

marno21

tabbey wrote: »

Probably, but it will be a long wait.

At the moment the M3 motorway has great surplus capacity so there is no need for the rail restoration.

At some time in the future, if long distance dormitory town development continues, there will be demand for re-instatement. It would not necessarily follow the historic route, but something like the Harcourt Street / Green line bastardisation.

Lots of surplus capacity on the M3. Then you get to where the motorway ends at Clonee and smack bang into a massive jam back from the M50, which itself is jammed too.

Plenty of spare motorway capacity on Co. Meath/Kildare/Wicklow but as you get close to Dublin that comes to an end.

Evil-1

marno21 wrote: »

Lots of surplus capacity on the M3. Then you get to where the motorway ends at Clonee and smack bang into a massive jam back from the M50, which itself is jammed too.

Plenty of spare motorway capacity on Co. Meath/Kildare/Wicklow but as you get close to Dublin that comes to an end.

And that right there is not just the heart of the issue, but its also the perfect problem for a rail service to fix, a lot of that traffic would use a rail service if it were available.

tabbey

marno21 wrote: »

Lots of surplus capacity on the M3. Then you get to where the motorway ends at Clonee and smack bang into a massive jam back from the M50, which itself is jammed too.

Plenty of spare motorway capacity on Co. Meath/Kildare/Wicklow but as you get close to Dublin that comes to an end.

This is where the motorists should leave the M3 at Dunboyne M3 parkway. park their cars and get the train into town.

The trouble is that NTA/IR have made it inconvenient by running the Dunboyne service as a branch, changing trains at Clonsilla.
Changing from car to train at M3 Parkway would be grudgingly accepted, but another change ten minutes later is just too much.

Instead of running a four car 2900 set with 10 or 12 passengers on a branch shuttle, a two car 2700 / 2800 going into the city centre directly, would be much more popular.

Another problem is that the M3 toll plaza is just north of the rail terminus, so motorists transferring to rail have to pay the toll. If the toll point was south of the station, motorists would have an incentive to go for the train.

Isambard

makes sense to me

marno21

tabbey wrote: »

This is where the motorists should leave the M3 at Dunboyne M3 parkway. park their cars and get the train into town.

The trouble is that NTA/IR have made it inconvenient by running the Dunboyne service as a branch, changing trains at Clonsilla.
Changing from car to train at M3 Parkway would be grudgingly accepted, but another change ten minutes later is just too much.

Instead of running a four car 2900 set with 10 or 12 passengers on a branch shuttle, a two car 2700 / 2800 going into the city centre directly, would be much more popular.

Another problem is that the M3 toll plaza is just north of the rail terminus, so motorists transferring to rail have to pay the toll. If the toll point was south of the station, motorists would have an incentive to go for the train.

Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

tallaghtfornia

marno21 wrote: »

Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

Its madness that in a European capital that a Toll road can hamper a whole rail project to a major city in the country.

end of the road

might be better just to move the toll on further from the station. that way those who need to use the whole road pay the toll and those who wish to use the train can use it without being caught for a toll. it may be easier then trying to have a system which works out who is going to the station. but i don't know. what i do know is the current system needs to end.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

Or free parking and free train transfer.

sofireland

tabbey wrote: »

The trouble is that NTA/IR have made it inconvenient by running the Dunboyne service as a branch, changing trains at Clonsilla.
Changing from car to train at M3 Parkway would be grudgingly accepted, but another change ten minutes later is just too much.

When BE were on strike, i used the m3 parkway - reliable, it does go city centre - to docklands, which was a 15-20 minute walk to my office each way. There isn't the capacity for the train to go to connolly afaik. But more informed folk know more about that than me

Last Stop

marno21 wrote: »

Or reduced toll or no toll for people using the M3 Parkway station.

What are loadings like on the M3 Parkway services at present?

Could the toll be included in the taxsaver scheme? Eg you scan your leap card at the toll or even based on e-tagging.

marno21

Last Stop wrote: »

Could the toll be included in the taxsaver scheme? Eg you scan your leap card at the toll or even based on e-tagging.

Or deduct the price of the train ticket by the price of the toll.

Although given the state of the N3/M50 I'm surprised it's not more popular. Having Luas BXD opening might help here too.

Agent_47

The M3 Parkway has 1200 car spaces but only circa 500 to 600 are used daily. it has 2 paltry electric charge points located 2/3 of the car park away from the station.

On a regular day the service is full by the 1st stop at Dunboyne. At the end of the line one has a wait of over 5 mins to exit the station due to the volume of people passing through. constant apologies by IE train drivers over the use of 3 carriage as opposed to 4 carriage at rush hour.

tabbey

sofireland wrote: »

i used the m3 parkway - reliable, it does go city centre - to docklands, which was a 15-20 minute walk to my office each way. There isn't the capacity for the train to go to connolly afaik. But more informed folk know more about that than me

It only runs through during peak hours, off peak, you have to change trains at Clonsilla.

Zebra3

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

Its madness that in a European capital that a Toll road can hamper a whole rail project to a major city in the country.

Nothing mad about it at all.

NTR’s profits a FF priority.

loyatemu

Agent_47 wrote: »

The M3 Parkway has 1200 car spaces but only circa 500 to 600 are used daily. it has 2 paltry electric charge points located 2/3 of the car park away from the station.

bit off topic, but are people really likely to be charging their car at a P&R? Would you want people parking up at 8am and leaving their car on charge until 6pm anyway - people would just take advantage of the free charging. I'd have thought the vast majority of people arriving at the carpark will be coming from home where they will already have charged up

cython

loyatemu wrote: »

bit off topic, but are people really likely to be charging their car at a P&R? Would you want people parking up at 8am and leaving their car on charge until 6pm anyway - people would just take advantage of the free charging. I'd have thought the vast majority of people arriving at the carpark will be coming from home where they will already have charged up

Depends on how close they live. Providing charging points makes a long round trip commute to the station that might otherwise be dicey a lot more feasible in an electric car, and considering this station is beside a motorway, it should not be assumed that passengers will be coming from around the corner. Upper range for a Leaf appears to be 200km, for example, or 125 miles - while 50 one way miles is a long enough commute, it is unfortunately not unheard of and potentially gambling in a Leaf (traffic jams could eat further into that) if you can't charge during the day.

Agent_47

loyatemu wrote: »

bit off topic, but are people really likely to be charging their car at a P&R? Would you want people parking up at 8am and leaving their car on charge until 6pm anyway - people would just take advantage of the free charging. I'd have thought the vast majority of people arriving at the carpark will be coming from home where they will already have charged up

They do and they are

tara83

They do and they are

Is it bad I do have a little giggle seeing them park up at the chargers and walk the long distance to the train

The train is already at capacity and I dread what it will be like with all the development in Hansfield

dermo888

Of course it won't open. All thanks to that Traitorous Trimmer, Noel Dempsey.

goingnowhere

Just remember the park and ride was the be north of the toll but was ruled out.

The railway was suddenly not worth it, even though it was obvious this would lead to higher demand.

Agent_47

Has to be a radical rethink on infrastructure and indeed the rail link for Navan. It is already getting too difficult to get in and out of the town.
Around M3 Parkway traffic is bad, building at Hansfield is so extensive that it will shortly arrive at Sean Boylans door (watch that space).
We took the motorway twice this week, going in is busy, trying to get off at M3 Parkway junction is murder with speeding roundabout traffic. Had to take motorway home as the roundabout was choked with traffic.
Long will be the day I can walk to a train in Navan and forget about the car ...

marno21

Agent_47 wrote: »

Has to be a radical rethink on infrastructure and indeed the rail link for Navan. It is already getting too difficult to get in and out of the town.
Around M3 Parkway traffic is bad, building at Hansfield is so extensive that it will shortly arrive at Sean Boylans door (watch that space).
We took the motorway twice this week, going in is busy, trying to get off at M3 Parkway junction is murder with speeding roundabout traffic. Had to take motorway home as the roundabout was choked with traffic.
Long will be the day I can walk to a train in Navan and forget about the car ...

No surprise M3 Parkway junction is busy between Dunboyne north traffic, traffic from all the settlements around the junction, the train station and of course, all the toll dodgers.

Third_Echelon

They have been talking about this Navan line since the 80s/early 90s. It made sense then and makes even more sense now... Just after the toll is where the traffic starts, which others have stated. Needs to be done...

marno21

Lots of things that need to be done though. That's the problem.

Ross said in the Dail at the minute that this isn't in plans that take Capital Investment forward to 2027. We won't see trains in Navan before 2035 if that's the case.

LuckyLloyd

As always, I ask why restoration of passenger services on the existing line via Drogheda (used daily by freight trains) isn’t an option?

Del.Monte

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As always, I ask why restoration of passenger services on the existing line via Drogheda (used daily by freight trains) isn’t an option?

CIE/IE.

LuckyLloyd

Del.Monte wrote: »

CIE/IE.

But why? The preference is to go from the M3 Parkway out to Navan but there is clearly no appetite to deliver the funds for such as large infrastructure project. Surely restoration of passenger services on the existing line would be far cheaper, hence far easier to get investment for, and maybe could get some improvements on the Northern line between Connolly and Drogheda added in as part of the project. What the feck am I missing?

Seanmk1

The train via Drogheda should be feasible by altering existing Drogheda-Dublin services to start from Navan with a new platform in Drogheda to pick up passengers.

However, the journey time wouldn't be great. Drogheda-Connolly takes about an hour and you could add, say 20 mins, to that to a journey from Navan.

Del.Monte

Seanmk1 wrote: »

The train via Drogheda should be feasible by altering existing Drogheda-Dublin services to start from Navan with a new platform in Drogheda to pick up passengers.

However, the journey time wouldn't be great. Drogheda-Connolly takes about an hour and you could add, say 20 mins, to that to a journey from Navan.

Timed to connect with the Enterprise quite good times could be achieved, but that would depend on max speeds on the revamped branch.

Seanmk1

Del.Monte wrote: »

Timed to connect with the Enterprise quite good times could be achieved, but that would depend on max speeds on the revamped branch.

Has Naval branch been relaid recently? It looks like it's in great condition.

Del.Monte

I can't tell you whether it's been relaid recently as I haven't travelled over it since 1990 - probably before some posters here were born.

Stephen15

Del.Monte wrote: »

I can't tell you whether it's been relaid recently as I haven't travelled over it since 1990 - probably before some posters here were born.

The NIR Pacer

tabbey

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As always, I ask why restoration of passenger services on the existing line via Drogheda (used daily by freight trains) isn’t an option?

Currently the Navan branch is limited to 25mph, so far as I know.

I would like to see a 60mph limit achieved, with regular services, initially to Drogheda, where a short platform could be built on the branch, with transfer to mainline trains.

Ideally, in the longer term, a through service to Dublin, stopping at Balbriggan, Skerries and possibly Malahide, on an hourly basis, combined with a similar hourly service to to / from Dundalk, would be what is needed to recover passengers to the railway.

No rational person would choose to travel from Drogheda to the city in a train stopping at every halt, when there are buses running on the motorway at competitive fares.

Give the public a good service and they will use it.

However, Navan people would probably not use it to get to the city, 49 miles by rail compared to 30 miles or so by motorway is not great. I do believe that Navan and Drogheda are big enough to support a rail service between the two towns, and for Navan to Balbriggan or Skerries, would be very handy also.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

I can't tell you whether it's been relaid recently as I haven't travelled over it since 1990 - probably before some posters here were born.

I take it that this is at one of the intermediate halts between Navan and Kingscourt, but which one?

Del.Monte

Kilmainham Wood. The former CCE of CIE, the late Pat Jennings also travelled and can be seen with his grandchildren on the platform in the foreground.

horseburger

Del.Monte wrote: »

I can't tell you whether it's been relaid recently as I haven't travelled over it since 1990 - probably before some posters here were born.

where did you come across the photo?

Del.Monte

horseburger wrote: »

where did you come across the photo?

You would need to ask Judgement Day. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73312487&postcount=6

horseburger

Evil-1 wrote: »

And that right there is not just the heart of the issue, but its also the perfect problem for a rail service to fix, a lot of that traffic would use a rail service if it were available.

Does anyone know, why it is, that none of the various rail services to and/or from Dublin, operate throughout the night?

It's an advantage that the various bus services have, over the rail services, for example to and from Dublin and Navan and Kells on the Bus Éireann 109A, from Cork to Dublin with Aircoach, to and from Dublin and Belfast on the Bus Éireann Translink Ulster Bus and Aircoach services, from Galway to Dublin with the City Link and Go Bus services, and from Limerick to Dublin with JJ Kavanagh's and Dublin Coach.

Many of the bus services, even if they don't operate particular services to and from Dublin throughout the night, operate a later service from Dublin, or a later service to Dublin, than the last train services to and from the same area, for example to and from Dublin to Limerick with Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanagh's.

I can never understand how the dismantling of the rail lines 50-60-70 years ago, throughout the country, was thought to be a good idea, but I wonder, if there is ever to be a rail line, to and from Navan and Dublin, again, how frequent would it be, throughout the day, and would its last service from Dublin be around 11.30pm, around the same time as the last rail services to places like Dundalk.

If a rail service, to and from Navan and Dublin, is ever to be reintroduced, how frequently would it be scheduled, to and from Dublin,

How frequently would it be scheduled, in comparison to the recently introduced NX Bus Éireann service, which is scheduled every 20 minutes to and from Navan and Dublin? Even before the new NX service, the Bus Éireann services to and from Navan and Dublin, were scheduled every 30 minutes.

A train service to and from Navan and Dublin, would need to be frequent enough, throughout the day, to make it a convenient option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Ireland#/media/File:Ireland%27s_Rail_Network_1925-75.gif

tabbey

horseburger wrote: »

Does anyone know, why it is, that none of the various rail services to and/or from Dublin, operate throughout the night?
]

There would not be sufficient numbers to justify a train. buses are cheaper to operate for smaller numbers.

Furthermore, maintenance takes place at night on railways.
This is especially so since frequent services have operated throughout the daytime. In the old days, outside the Dublin area there would be a number of hours in the middle of the day for track work, but not now.

CatInABox

An old thread, I know, but I thought it better to put it here than start a new thread on it.

Minister Ross has confirmed that the feasibility on the Navan line has been moved forward to late 2020, finishing in 2021. If an extension to Navan doesn't pass muster in the climate emergency era, then there's no hope for any other marginal line really.

See the Meath Chronicle here.

Responding to a question from the Meath Chronicle, Minister Ross said he was aware that the National Transport Authority had briefed Meath County Council just last week on the matter where they indicated that a review would begin in late 2020 and be completed by mid 2021 as part of the National Transport Strategy.

Agent_47

Yeah, saw the article in the Chronicle, what criteria will they use to determine viability so we can ensure they give it proper consideration?

Lord Glentoran

Agent_47 wrote: »

Yeah, saw the article in the Chronicle, what criteria will they use to determine viability so we can ensure they give it proper consideration?

It will have to jump over the fuggin’ moon before Finance and the Doherty and Nesbitt School of Economics give permission for Official Ireland to even give it consideration.

Zebra3

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It will have to jump over the fuggin’ moon before Finance and the Doherty and Nesbitt School of Economics give permission for Official Ireland to even give it consideration.

Can always be in the consideration stage in the pre-GE period.

FG are gonna need something to salvage themselves.

I'll be expecting a lot of crazy promises.

cgcsb

Where will trains go when they get to the city? Chronic under investment and neglect for decades has limited capacity.

disposableFish

cgcsb wrote: »

Where will trains go when they get to the city? Chronic under investment and neglect for decades has limited capacity.

Do they still own the land beside docklands station?
It's close enough to both the Sligo and Northern lines that it could be connected with fairly minor rejigging.

Maybe I'm being a bit naive here but if they wanted to reduce demand on Connolly couldn't they just build a proper station at dockland and have it serve as terminus. It wouldn't solve some of the problems, but it should stop Connolly itself being a bottle-neck.

It could even have offices built on top as has been done elsewhere.