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petethedrummer · 10-09-2013 2:05pm

ror_74 wrote: »

Just something of interest to note regarding type 2 diabetes. Of all the licensed medical centres treating this condition with nutrition, none are doing so with the HFLC method, almost all of them are using plants ( fruit, veg, nuts and seeds )

The only diet related method of reversing Type 2 has been a low calorie high nutrient approach.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Get_involved/Corporate/Acknowledgements/

AstraMonti · 10-09-2013 2:07pm

ror_74 wrote: »

The only diet related method of reversing Type 2 has been a low calorie high nutrient approach.

An interesting interview on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjUdtK6ukqY

niceonetom · 10-09-2013 6:25pm

Dave Zabriskie is on the HFLC wagon now too apparently.

petethedrummer · 10-09-2013 7:31pm

niceonetom wrote: »

Dave Zabriskie is on the HFLC wagon now too apparently.

He should get off his arse and do a bit of exercise, then he wouldn't need to be doing any of these faddy diets.

Ole Rodrigo · 11-09-2013 3:28pm

Still relatively undecided about HFLC vs LCHF, I came across this article, and was encouraged to find common ground between the two opposites of each, which sort of ties in with common sense. They also share common ground on the foods they criticise.

Interesting to see Joel Furhman soften his stance on animal foods, although he criticises Paleo for focusing too much on meat and not enough on vegetables ( a criticism I thought was accurate ). He's been treating illnesses with plant foods for years. Worth a look for something close to a definitive view on whats healthy.

http://experiencelife.com/article/paleo-vs-vegan/

petethedrummer · 11-09-2013 4:59pm

ror_74 wrote: »

Interesting to see Joel Furhman soften his stance on animal foods, although he criticises Paleo for focusing too much on meat and not enough on vegetables ( a criticism I thought was accurate ).

Anything I have read recommends eating vegetables.

colm_gti · 11-09-2013 5:13pm

ror_74 wrote: »

Still relatively undecided about HFLC vs LCHF

Forgive my ignorance....but what's the difference?

CramCycle · 11-09-2013 6:21pm

colm_gti wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance....but what's the difference?

I presume they meant HCLF vs. HFLC

elhorse · 11-09-2013 6:44pm

I've been following a very low carb diet for a while now, and have definitely lost bodyfat, despite it coinciding with a string of injuries which have left me unable to do my normal regime of sprinting and weight training. Recently though, I have had some fairly hefty bouts of lightheadedness, dizziness and headaches. Now I'm not at all sure that they're connected (in fact I think it may be due to a food intolerance), so I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced this when cutting down on carbs?

100200 shih · 11-09-2013 6:47pm

elhorse wrote: »

I've been following a very low carb diet for a while now, and have definitely lost bodyfat, despite it coinciding with a string of injuries which have left me unable to do my normal regime of sprinting and weight training. Recently though, I have had some fairly hefty bouts of lightheadedness, dizziness and headaches. Now I'm not at all sure that they're connected (in fact I think it may be due to a food intolerance), so I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced this when cutting down on carbs?

Yes on all 3 & my legs turned to jelly a number of times, but on the plus side Ive lost 1 stone 6 pounds in 6 weeks without exercise. Its more of a life style change than a diet.

petethedrummer · 11-09-2013 7:59pm

elhorse wrote: »

I have had some fairly hefty bouts of lightheadedness, dizziness and headaches.

I had slight lightheadness in the first week or 2 solved by drinking some salty water.
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/recommended-reading/729321-low-carbers-salt-dizziness-muscle-weakness-fatigue.html

No dizziness or headaches that weren't drink induced.

elhorse · 11-09-2013 8:45pm

I had slight lightheadness in the first week or 2 solved by drinking some salty water.
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/re...s-fatigue.html

No dizziness or headaches that weren't drink induced.

That seems exactly like every symptom I have! I've been trying everything to get to the bottom of it! Going to get the salt into me, this would be amazing if it cures the problem. Thanks very much for the info, and here's hoping!

Ole Rodrigo · 11-09-2013 10:10pm

colm_gti wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance....but what's the difference?

CramCycle wrote: »

I presume they meant HCLF vs. HFLC

Sorry Cramcycle is right.

petethedrummer wrote: »

Anything I have read recommends eating vegetables.

Yes, but at times it seems to me to be an afterthought rather than an essential component.

Some of my work colleagues have decided to do this..by their own admission they don't like eating many vegetables ( a lot of people don't ) and they still go out at the weekend for beers. So technically its a low carb high fat diet..but carbs from beer instead of veg ?. I doubt they're alone in this a la carte approach.

Joel Furhman argues that striking a balance between meat and veg is important with Paleo because vegetables protect again the excesses of meat, among other things. Who knows, they are all looking at the same data. I would say he has extra credibility though, because he applies his knowledge in the field and gets results .

petethedrummer · 12-09-2013 1:55am

ror_74 wrote: »

Yes, but at times it seems to me to be an afterthought rather than an essential component.

Well there are such things as essential amino and fatty acids. The best sources of these are animal products. I am unaware of essential carbohydrates (but I may be wrong), given that the human body can engineer glycogen from protein. Anyway, veg may appear to be an afterthought because it's already drilled into us that veg is healthy. I don't know anyone who thinks vegetables are unhealthy. There may be an over emphasis on animal products because they have been so demonised. I didn't need any convincing that eating veg was healthy, I did need convincing that I could eat animal products with impunity. Hence the ENORMOUS amount of reading I have done.

ror_74 wrote: »

Some of my work colleagues have decided to do this..by their own admission they don't like eating many vegetables ( a lot of people don't ) and

<controversial>I have read that there may be people who are so metabolically deranged that they can only eat refined carbs and meat(usually only chicken) basically anything that looks white. The only people in real life I have met who dislike vegetables are people with Aspergers or varying amounts of OCD. </controversial>

ror_74 wrote: »

they still go out at the weekend for beers. So technically its a low carb high fat diet..but carbs from beer instead of veg ?. I doubt they're alone in this a la carte approach.

So what's wrong with getting wrecked at the weekend if you can counter balance the weekend's excesses with a diet that keeps you on an even (mental/physical/weight) keel?

petethedrummer · 12-09-2013 2:10am

Ror, a few times now you have posted links to veganism. Why don't you go the whole hog and report back on how it works out for you? No supplementation allowed though.

Ole Rodrigo · 12-09-2013 7:51am

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well there are such things as essential amino and fatty acids. The best sources of these are animal products. I am unaware of essential carbohydrates (but I may be wrong), given that the human body can engineer glycogen from protein. Anyway, veg may appear to be an afterthought because it's already drilled into us that veg is healthy. I don't know anyone who thinks vegetables are unhealthy. There may be an over emphasis on animal products because they have been so demonised. I didn't need any convincing that eating veg was healthy, I did need convincing that I could eat animal products with impunity. Hence the ENORMOUS amount of reading I have done.

Its not so much carbs as vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals that are not available in meat. Essential amino acids from meat isn't an argument anymore , although the body might need time to adapt to plants and some people may have trouble with this. Anyway, I'm not arguing against animal products but rather questioning their dominance in a diet at the expense of other foods.

http://goodfoodproject.net/home/resources/what-the-experts-say/protein-what-the-experts-say/

petethedrummer wrote: »

<controversial>I have read that there may be people who are so metabolically deranged that they can only eat refined carbs and meat(usually only chicken) basically anything that looks white. The only people in real life I have met who dislike vegetables are people with Aspergers or varying amounts of OCD. </controversial>

Hmm. That is controversial, but there is some truth in it I'd say.

petethedrummer wrote: »

So what's wrong with getting wrecked at the weekend if you can counter balance the weekend's excesses with a diet that keeps you on an even (mental/physical/weight) keel?

Nothing when you put it like that, I guess. You wont find any research ( outside of your local boozer ) giving the thumbs up to getting wrecked ..a few glasses of wine maybe but even wine doesn't have anything you cant get from plants. Some chaps Ive spoken to cant get enough of craft beer and sausages declaring that its paleo and they can now live forever :pac:

petethedrummer wrote: »

Ror, a few times now you have posted links to veganism. Why don't you go the whole hog and report back on how it works out for you? No supplementation allowed though.

I have, purely from the point of view of plugging what I think are holes in the HFLC/ Paleo view in the spirit of constructive criticism. I have thought about it, but my diet is good at the moment. I'll kick your ass in a drinking contest though ! *

* just kidding :pac:

petethedrummer · 12-09-2013 8:46am

ror_74 wrote: »

I'll kick your ass in a drinking contest though !

No doubt, there's very little soakage in LCHF.

CramCycle · 12-09-2013 9:10am

It occured to me after trying this for awhile that I had a HFHC diet, now I just have a low carb diet, in that I am not upping my fat intake that much.

One thing I'll say is that from a Diabetics point of view my control is now the best it has been for 20years. I can feel high blood sugars at slightly above 10mmol/L(never could feel them even when my control was good until they went above 14 or 15mmol/L). I have had a few hypos, not serious but the symptoms again feel stronger.

I am not following any set plan, I am just actively taking less carbs then I used to and having a little ticker over the day in my head so that I am taking some. Eating a huge amount more veg and meat though. My snacking has plummeted with no effort though. I would happily munch through a full packet of biscuits or a couple of bags of Tayto over a day at work, I think I have only had a craving twice in the last two weeks, once I splurged on my daughters biscuits, the other time I just had 2 biscuits and put the packet back away, normally I would leave it beside me and pick off 5 or 6 with a cup of tea/coffee. Oddly enough it wasn't a huge push mentally to stop the biscuits, once I started loading on eggs and rashers in the morning, my hunger which was monstrous, plummeted.

Soarer · 12-09-2013 10:49am

CramCycle wrote: »

Oddly enough it wasn't a huge push mentally to stop the biscuits, once I started loading on eggs and rashers in the morning, my hunger which was monstrous, plummeted.

I find the same.

Have a fairly big breakfast of rashers and sausages, and really don't find myself getting hungry during the day. Have to make a conscious decision to eat in the afternoon/evening.

Roll back a month, and I'd have a bap/wrap/sandwich for breakfast, crisps and chocolate during the afternoon, and then some pasta/potato based dinner.

Mental when I think about it.

petethedrummer · 12-09-2013 10:49am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kapaSTpYc0I

petethedrummer · 12-09-2013 12:39pm

petethedrummer wrote: »

Those are elite athletes though and most of us reading are not elite athletes. I would argue that we need to stop listening to what they do as it does not apply to the vast majority of us.

I've decided to contradict my stance of not posting advice for the elites because I found something from the pro peloton that suits my argument.

HG: First of all, I set the menu. I mean, they can request stuff, the riders, if they want. I’ll note it and I’ll do it if it’s possible. But, obviously, then there’s rules to how to assemble the menu. Today’s a rest day, so we do a low-carb lunch for them. They’re not going so far, they just want to keep their legs going, so we don’t want to fill them up too much. And we don’t want to go too hard on the carbs so they don’t gain weight.

Then we have a philosophy of using lots of vegetables, proteins, and cold-pressed fats, and then we use a lot of gluten-free alternatives. So we try to encourage the riders to try other things than just pasta and bread. I do gluten-free breads as well.

It’s all to minimize all the little things that can stop you from performing 100 percent, that promote injuries, stomach problems, all those things. So that’s a big difference (from cooking in a restaurant), because I have to follow all those rules. I can’t just cook whatever I think is amazing. It has to be within those guidelines.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/fueling-the-tour-qa-with-saxo-chef-hannah-grant_295465

No more Pasta Solo* for Roche!

*That's what we used to call plain pasta garnished with salt in my student days.

MediaMan · 13-09-2013 9:48am

Lustig quoted in an IT article yesterday about sugar.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/oh-sugar-fructose-the-sweet-white-poison-1.1523982

ford2600 · 13-09-2013 10:07am

On this diet more or less for 6 weeks or so. No bread, pasta rice etc in that time. Pasta and bread were a very regular part of my diet.

Doing between 200-300km per week since May and now at lower end of that range.

Have kept a log of weight for last month
Weight log
21/08/2013 12.12.5
28/08/2013 12.11.8
04/09/2013 12.12.4
13/09/2013 12.12.8

Given scales is unlikely to be 100% accurate, seems to be little difference in weight. However even on high carbohydrate/sugar diet I had no visible excess fat

Took a 5 day rest from bike and was out last night on regular route, felt great on bike and faster than normal on most segments. Not sure if rest or diet, probably rest.

As an aside, given my primary reason for diet is an interest in cholesterol levels, does anyone know if any irish labs do an Apo B blood test?

PeddlyFreddly · 13-09-2013 10:33am

MediaMan wrote: »

Lustig quoted in an IT article yesterday about sugar.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/oh-sugar-fructose-the-sweet-white-poison-1.1523982

Gawd that article is terrible though...

Its conclusion is that the only hope for obese people is gastric bypass surgery. How can you quote Lustig twice and miss the whole point of his message. It is possible to recover from obesity if you cut the sugar!

petethedrummer · 13-09-2013 12:41pm

ford2600 wrote: »

Not sure if rest or diet, probably rest.

Probably rest. I don't think any diet will directly make you any faster but different diets may affect recovery rates, body weight and resistance to illness. Which may indirectly lead to increased speed.

I've been reading up on the High intensity interval training advocates and they seem to think that most people get it wrong when it comes to exercise dosage. People are either doing too much or too little (i.e. none).

Granted, most of HIIT literature on the the net is in reference to body building and having awesome pecs but I think they may be correct when it comes to rest and recovery.

AstraMonti · 13-09-2013 12:57pm

Did it start getting viral?

Went in an had a look, had nuts, salads with eggs and tuna, biltongs, drywors (although both had wheat in them) and lots of fruit salad. Not bad.

petethedrummer · 13-09-2013 2:07pm

I can't stop looking at Pasta Bread Bowl related stuff on the internet. I've become obsessed with it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZsJFMmIOQ

petethedrummer · 13-09-2013 2:15pm

HG: Today’s a rest day, so we do a low-carb lunch for them. They’re not going so far, they just want to keep their legs going, so we don’t want to fill them up too much. And we don’t want to go too hard on the carbs so they don’t gain weight.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/fueling-the-tour-qa-with-saxo-chef-hannah-grant_295465

I want to come back to this statement by the Saxo chef. If weight control was all about calories in vs calories out. Surely naturally slim elite athletes IN THE MIDDLE OF A GRAND TOUR should be in a calorie deficit and not worried about weight gain?

Or is the calorie 'equation' a load of nonsense?

PeddlyFreddly · 13-09-2013 2:27pm

petethedrummer wrote: »

I want to come back to this statement by the Saxo chef. If weight control was all about calories in vs calories out. Surely naturally slim elite athletes IN THE MIDDLE OF A GRAND TOUR should be in a calorie deficit and not worried about weight gain?

Or is the calorie 'equation' a load of nonsense?

According to this experiment, it is indeed a load of nonsense.

What happens when you eat 5,800 calories a day on an LCHF diet

petethedrummer · 13-09-2013 3:45pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKq7_9uPcmQ

I hope that's low fat cheese. People might get fat!

Though given that I saw "Imitation Cheese" written on the side of the cheese bag in the burger bar I worked in over in the states, there's probably no need to worry.

irishbuzz · 13-09-2013 3:50pm

How about the Pizzaburger...

http://www.joe.ie/joe-life/food-drink/would-you-eat-this-1360-calorie-pizzaburger/

petethedrummer · 13-09-2013 4:01pm

irishbuzz wrote: »

How about the Pizzaburger...

http://www.joe.ie/joe-life/food-drink/would-you-eat-this-1360-calorie-pizzaburger/

I'd take the bread wrapping off and happily eat it.

AstraMonti · 13-09-2013 5:08pm

Things I am planning to cook and eat in the weekend, might give you guys some ideas:

http://nourishedapp.com/blog/2013/6/6/rosemary-shortbread-cookies

http://dudefoods.com/bacon-weave-quesadilla/

http://www.skinnytaste.com/2009/09/oven-roasted-cauliflower.html

http://www.budgetbytes.com/2011/06/honey-mustard-chicken-strips/

http://www.chewpakka.se/lchf-pasta/ (the site name gains extra kudos)

petethedrummer · 13-09-2013 5:28pm

http://chriskresser.com/health-lessons-from-international-cuisines-africa

AstraMonti · 13-09-2013 10:22pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

Things I am planning to cook and eat in the weekend, might give you guys some ideas:

http://nourishedapp.com/blog/2013/6/6/rosemary-shortbread-cookies

Ok so I made this tonight, it's not horrible, but it's not so great either. I think I can improve the recipe a bit, I ll try again on Sunday.

petethedrummer · 14-09-2013 4:52am

Right. For various different reasons I'm going to have this thread closed. I hope everyone had fun reading. And thanks to everyone pro and con who contributed. Night night.

I've Joined a Cult

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