Who is at fault?

grogi · 13-02-2019 10:54pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Red is 100% correct positionally, irrespective, and here's why:

Two-lanes-on, two-lanes off exist to increase volume of traffic through the roundabout and to keep the feeder roads moving.

If the designer of said RB was so concerned about throughtput, they would designed the exit in the following way, with the lane markings guiding the motorist out of the roundabout:

This would leave no room for interpretation - blue would be at fault without any doubt. Instead the lazy approach was chosed, in hope that "the drivers will deal with that between themselves". Such dual-lane rb are no better than single lane really.

gandalf · 14-02-2019 1:13am

As pointed out already you are both in the wrong lanes for the direction you wanted to go. I'd say it would be 50/50.

AhHaor · 14-02-2019 10:51am

It's always a nervy feeling going right using the left hand lane here

https://goo.gl/maps/K44ZTPAu8w62

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 14-02-2019 1:14pm

i think
1/ never do more than a semi circle in the left lane
2/ always look left before taking the turn in the right hand lane
3/ if you are lost and have to go around again leave a left indicator on to hilight and signal to others that you f**ked it up .

will do well to keep you safe on any RB

DaveyDave · 14-02-2019 1:49pm

It's funny how many people are saying OP is wrong for going straight in the right lane.

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 1:58pm

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's funny how many people are saying OP is wrong for going straight in the right lane.

funny isnt the word I would use.
Tragic more like.

grogi · 14-02-2019 3:25pm

DaveyDave wrote: »

It's funny how many people are saying OP is wrong for going straight in the right lane.

He's not going straight - you cannot go straight at the roundabout, you can only exit to the left.

OP is entering left RB lane without checking if that's safe.

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 4:05pm

grogi wrote: »

He's not going straight - you cannot go straight at the roundabout, you can only exit to the right.

OP is entering left RB lane without checking if that's safe.

YOu can exit into the race course, which is before 12 O'clock.

Why is it not safe?
Because there is a lunatic driving there disobeying both the rules of the road and the signage at the roundabout.

Unless signposted otherwise, left lane is for up to 12 O'clock only.

grogi · 14-02-2019 4:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

YOu can exit into the race course, which is before 12 O'clock.

Why is it not safe?
Because there is a lunatic driving there disobeying both the rules of the road and the signage at the roundabout.

Unless signposted otherwise, left lane is for up to 12 O'clock only.

What if it is 12:05 ?!

TheChizler · 14-02-2019 4:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

YOu can exit into the race course, which is before 12 O'clock.

Why is it not safe?
Because there is a lunatic driving there disobeying both the rules of the road and the signage at the roundabout.

Unless signposted otherwise, left lane is for up to 12 O'clock only.

It's not safe to enter another lane while there's someone else in it. Whether they should be there or not has no bearing on the safety and should not guide your actions.

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 4:31pm

grogi wrote: »

What if it is 12:05 ?!

Then its after 12....

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 4:35pm

TheChizler wrote: »

It's not safe to enter another lane while there's someone else in it. Whether they should be there or not has no bearing on the safety and should not guide your actions.

I didnt say it did, I said the other person is in the wrong lane and disobeying the rules of the road.
If the lazy gits had marked the lanes correctly then the OP wouldnt be changing lanes, the red car would, so which has priority ROTR and lack of signage to the contrary, or a circular dotted line which is, to me at least, meaningless?

antix80 · 14-02-2019 4:47pm

Probably not the best tactic, but I'd try to speed ahead of the person in the outer lane and I'd probably try to cross into the outer lane prior to exiting the roundabout to ensure the person in the left lane doesn't go into the side of me. It's all well and good saying "well, I indicated, and I'm allowed to exit from the inner lane" but you're still crossing into a lane that another motorist is in and other drivers can be awful.
That's if I found myself in your position of being in the second lane. Most of the time, I'd probably only be in that lane if I wanted to turn right.
OT but I was in Israel and noticed all the dual carriageways either had traffic lights rather than roundabouts (the green light flashed prior turning to amber to give you a chance to slow down), or they reduced to one lane before a roundabout.

grogi · 14-02-2019 4:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Then its after 12....

You seem pretty sure you'll be able to distinguish between 11:55 and 12:05 exits... Especially then you're entering the RB.

DeepBlue · 14-02-2019 5:01pm

Sono wrote: »

You are both wrong, the person in the left lane could be coming from 9 o’clock and is perfectly entitled to drive past that exit in that lane if they are.

Is red supposed to stop on the inner lane, indicate that he's going to take the exit and then only proceed when safe to do so?

Technically you're probably correct but it's not particularly practical. Red would have seen blue if blue was coming into the roundabout from an entrance in front but it's much more difficult if blue is parallel or behind. Any accident would have been 99% blue's fault for being in the wrong lane initially.

DaveyDave · 14-02-2019 5:04pm

I like to close my eyes and shout "Jesus take the wheel!". Works every time.

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 5:17pm

grogi wrote: »

You seem pretty sure you'll be able to distinguish between 11:55 and 12:05 exits... Especially then you're entering the RB.

Signage shows you where your exit is.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2537875,-6.1774864,3a,60y,15.94h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTgNhdSF-tESWg2VCcgHzVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 5:18pm

DaveyDave wrote: »

I like to close my eyes and shout "Jesus take the wheel!". Works every time.

I tried that in Mexico and 12 people tried to get into my car.

grogi · 14-02-2019 6:33pm

DeepBlue wrote: »

Is red supposed to stop on the inner lane, indicate that he's going to take the exit and then only proceed when safe to do so?

Yes. Or even better keep going around.

grogi · 14-02-2019 6:34pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Signage shows you where your exit is.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2537875,-6.1774864,3a,60y,15.94h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTgNhdSF-tESWg2VCcgHzVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The signage at the exit suggest that left lane is for exiting or staying in the RB, right for keeping on the RB only.

jaxxx · 14-02-2019 6:39pm

grogi wrote: »

The signage at the exit suggest that left lane is for exiting or staying in the RB, right for keeping on the RB only.

What? That sign in the image shared by GreeBo means left lane for Leopardstown only, right lane for Southbound....... You do not go past 12 o'clock in the left hand lane of a roundabout.

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 6:42pm

grogi wrote: »

Yes. Or even better keep going around.

Lol.
Perhaps we should setup traffic lights at the junction of you have just described.

Actually, maybe a roundabout would allow for more freeflowing traffic....oops.

More reasonably, the blue car should stop and wait until their way is clear, since they are the ones making a bags of everything.

jaxxx · 14-02-2019 6:48pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Lol.
Perhaps we should setup traffic lights at the junction of you have just described.

Actually, maybe a roundabout would allow for more freeflowing traffic....oops.

More reasonably, the blue car should stop and wait until their way is clear, since they are the ones making a bags of everything.

I'm somewhat flabbergasted, and alarmingly concerned, about how people believe that the blue car is not at fault. Jesus, you do not go passed 12 o'clock in the left hand lane EVER, unless of course signage indicates otherwise. I'm driving over 10 years and have never come across a roundabout where you take the left hand lane to go passed 12 o'clock.

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 7:18pm

jaxxx wrote: »

I'm somewhat flabbergasted, and alarmingly concerned, about how people believe that the blue car is not at fault. Jesus, you do not go passed 12 o'clock in the left hand lane EVER, unless of course signage indicates otherwise. I'm driving over 10 years and have never come across a roundabout where you take the left hand lane to go passed 12 o'clock.

There was one posted earlier, but it was clearly signposted as "different".
I've never (knowingly!) come across one either.

Rubberchikken · 14-02-2019 7:20pm

other driver is in wrong lane to go round roundabout to 3rd exit.

doesnt every post on roundabouts say that?

GreeBo · 14-02-2019 7:23pm

seamus wrote: »

In the absence of any road markings, you are primarily in the wrong. You crossed the lane of the other driver. His position may be incorrect, but he still has right of way and you would not be entitled to leave your lane without giving way.

This is not correct. I can think of at least one roundabout where you may take the 3rd exit from the left-hand lane. Consequently on that roundabout you *cannot* take the second exit from the right-hand lane.

Edit, Here: https://goo.gl/maps/DsqzyHEKc9s
Look at the markings.

This is the post I referenced above.

The Rape of Lucretia · 14-02-2019 8:44pm

The blue car is in the 'wrong' lane. But they are not at fault if red and blue crash.
Those two statements are not contradictory.
Turning into a car in the wrong lane, makes the turner the one at fault.

Compare :
Straight single lane in each direction road with broken line. Blue and Red car are travelling in the same direction. Blue moves into the other direction lane to overtake red. Yellow turns out of a side road in the other direction. Yellow claims blue is at fault because they were in the wrong lane. We all know this is nonsense, and that blue can be in the other side of the road even though they are not in the correct lane for the direction they are travelling, and that yellow is entirely at fault.

AhHaor · 15-02-2019 10:03am

jaxxx wrote: »

I'm somewhat flabbergasted, and alarmingly concerned, about how people believe that the blue car is not at fault. Jesus, you do not go passed 12 o'clock in the left hand lane EVER, unless of course signage indicates otherwise. I'm driving over 10 years and have never come across a roundabout where you take the left hand lane to go passed 12 o'clock.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0625,-113.6067555,4z

There you go

whomitconcerns · 15-02-2019 10:10am

This is nuts. The photo posted above showed the left lane continues into the exit only. The right lane continues into the right lane of the exit and continues on the roundabout. Red didn't cross anyone elses lane so he can't be at fault.

Toots · 15-02-2019 10:15am

IMO, you're both in the wrong. However, I'm on that roundabout at least twice a day and from what I can see, people are in the wrong lane 90% of the time there. I usually come on at the ballyogan road and off at the exit you were taking, but I always double check there's nobody in the left lane before turning off, I wouldn't just assume someone in that lane was going straight, even if they had their indicator on.

Shefwedfan · 15-02-2019 10:18am

StereoSound wrote: »

Ok here we go, here is the exact spot where I made my exit. Me Red, Other driver blue. Is my exit right or wrong ?

Your in the wrong lane....He/she is in wrong lane

Both should be banned for life off the road

15-02-2019 10:32am

Sono wrote: »

You are both wrong, the person in the left lane could be coming from 9 o’clock and is perfectly entitled to drive past that exit in that lane if they are.

If they came on from the OPs left, they would have had to wait for the OP to pass, so it wouldnt have been an issue, from what I got, they started in the same location, other driver at fault.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your in the wrong lane....He/she is in wrong lane

Both should be banned for life off the road

The OP might be better in the left lane but it looks from the images provided that he/she can continue on. It also looks like there are road markings that say the left lane can proceed past 12 oclock, but Ive seen a few examples where the lane markings say you can do stuff and its outright incorrect or some examples near me which says you cant and its also outright incorrect, either down to incompetence of the person who drew the plans/authorised them/and ultimately the company/people who put the markings down without questioning it.
Two lanes on and two lanes off, OPs done little wrong here, in this example the other person was a complete clueless/lazy/oblivious idiot.
Essentially going right at a roundabout is bad practice and not one to done unless (road markings say so and you use your own intelligence to confirm if this is correct AND you are completely aware of your surroundings such as other vehicles).
Its not worth the hassle, like everyone the OP just needs to be cautious of other people on the road who are clueless morons, one poster even suggested flooring it ahead of the car, which would more likely put 2 cars in a collision, best thing is to avoid or go around rather than be involved in that.
Ive seen other examples where people just use roundabouts poorly despite the markings, in one example its because straight is offset from 12 in one direction (and 11 from the other) they just park in the lane for doing a right turn/go around the roundabout, 99% of people do it.
One person I knew even told me it was the shortest way across, meaning to cut lanes while going around!? some people are both selfish and clueless, when I asked hom why he didnt just drive over the island, he just smiled.
Improving markings/signage might help but some people are beyond help, how they ever got licenced given its supposed to be a bit more difficult than many other jurisdictions is astonishing.

_Kaiser_ · 15-02-2019 10:35am

palance wrote: »

Well ye're both in the wrong lane to begin with. Red going to the 2nd exit should have been in the left-side lane in the first place. Blue, going into the 3rd exit should have been in the right-side lane. There would have been no issue then.

63 people as of this morning are wrong.

2 lanes on approach, 2 lanes on the roundabout, 2 lanes off it at the exit the OP took.

OP was perfectly entitled to exit as they did. Other car was in the wrong here, but the fact that so many people here think the same as the above poster is why situations like this arise in the first place.

grogi · 15-02-2019 10:36am

1874 wrote: »

If they came on from the OPs left, they would have had to wait for the OP to pass, so it wouldnt have been an issue, from what I got, they started in the same location, other driver at fault.

Why would they wait if there was a perfectly free lane to enter and drive on?

doolox · 15-02-2019 10:39am

Try driving the 6 road, three lane Walkinstown roundabout at lunchtime weekdays for heart stopping performances from sudden ambush parkers on Ballymount rd or vans up your ass when someone suddenly stops in front of you leaving you stuck in the middle with no escape.......

15-02-2019 10:40am

grogi wrote: »

Why would they wait if there was a perfectly free lane to enter and drive on?

You mean if the OP was already on the roundabout?!
If you're saying what I think you're saying thats a serious concern, Just because another lane (other than the one in use) is empty does not mean you can drive onto a roundabout when someone is already there!
Yield right of way or give way is the rule,

That more or less confirms what I see a lot of, me going right, in righthand lane, cars coming up slip road from opposite direction drive out onto roundabout becuase they think that the nearside lane is empty, if thats the thinking thats going around, people need to get some lessons.

grogi · 15-02-2019 10:43am

1874 wrote: »

You mean if the OP was already on the roundabout?!
If you're saying what I think you're saying thats a serious concern, Just because another lane (other than the one in use) is empty does not mean you can drive onto a roundabout when someone is already there!
Yield right of way or give way is the rule

That more or less confirms what I see a lot of, me going right, in righthand lane, cars coming up slip road from opposite direction drive out onto roundabout becuase they think that the nearside lane is empty, if thats the thinking thats going around, people need to get some lessons.

But in this case the Blue could enter and drive 100 m without interfering with the op's Red. It was only when Red suddenly decided to cut across a traffic lane the danger occured.

Billgirlylegs · 15-02-2019 10:54am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

63 people as of this morning are wrong.

2 lanes on approach, 2 lanes on the roundabout, 2 lanes off it at the exit the OP took.

OP was perfectly entitled to exit as they did. Other car was in the wrong here, but the fact that so many people here think the same as the above poster is why situations like this arise in the first place.

OP is in wrong lane to exit roundabout.
A lot of roundabouts are marked incorrectly.
They are a series of left hand junctions

Junction rules.
Exit from the left lane only
Like any junction, the left lane can be used to continue ie stay on the roundabout.
It is a lane, like any other lane and OP can not "cut across" - same rules as any lane he or she will use

Isambard · 15-02-2019 10:54am

grogi wrote: »

But in this case the Blue could enter and drive 100 m without interfering with the op's Red. It was only when Red suddenly decided to cut across a traffic lane the danger occured.

he didn't do that at all, he was in one of the two correct lanes to go straight on. The other car was in the incorrect lane to be going one exit further.

This is so clearly the case, that it makes me wonder about the general standard of people's driving. Whoever taught you to drive? (answer : No one, they just sat in and drove on a Provisional)

TheChizler · 15-02-2019 11:01am

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

OP is in wrong lane to exit roundabout.
A lot of roundabouts are marked incorrectly.
They are a series of left hand junctions

Junction rules.
Exit from the left lane only
Like any junction, the left lane can be used to continue ie stay on the roundabout.
It is a lane, like any other lane and OP can not "cut across" - same rules as any lane he or she will use

I'd mostly agree, they're technically not in an exit lane as the lane marking continues around the roundabout. But there's nothing wrong with checking your mirrors, indicating, and crossing out of the inside lane to exit when safe to do so. No law prohibits this.

Any guideline or convention on which lane to be in from entrance to exit is subjective, as long as you obey the law at the point you're at then you're not doing anything wrong. The problem comes when, due to convention, other people might not expect you to carry out your perfectly legal maneuver, and this is why guidelines are important to follow.

Of course when it comes to insurance and blame, it's all about subjectivity!

15-02-2019 11:02am

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

OP is in wrong lane to exit roundabout.
A lot of roundabouts are marked incorrectly.
They are a series of left hand junctions

Junction rules.
Exit from the left lane only
Like any junction, the left lane can be used to continue ie stay on the roundabout.
It is a lane, like any other lane and OP can not "cut across" - same rules as any lane he or she will use

Wrong, otherwise how does the offside lane in a roundabout ever get used, you cant just drive around the entire roundabout in the nearside/outer lane.
Very concerning, but unsurprising people think like this.
The main thing to take from this is, people should not go around the entire roundabout in the outer lane, fearing going to the inner lane I think because they dont know how to use a roundabout and concerned they wont get back out to be able to exit it, christ on a bike!

grogi wrote: »

But in this case the Blue could enter and drive 100 m without interfering with the op's Red. It was only when Red suddenly decided to cut across a traffic lane the danger occured.

This did not occur from whats been posted it seems, and I doubt they could have moved 100m in indistance, and if so, how did the other car pass the OP? overtake from the nearside lane barrelling around the outside of the OP?
Youre saying the OP started out first, could move 100m (a distance I dont think even is available there) and was overtaken by Blue in the outside lane.
For a start, this isnt what was described to have occurred, next if that occured then Blue would be overtaking in the outer lane, should not happen unless traffic was so busy as to be stationary or moving much slower on the offside/inner lane.

Mitch Connor · 15-02-2019 11:03am

TheChizler wrote: »

Looks like you crossed a broken lane marking to exit, in general on any road you give way to people already in their lane. A roundabout doesn't change that IMO. This is made worse by them not following the normal convention.

Imagine they had entered the roundabout from 9 o'clock. You would be in the exact same positions but they would much more clearly be in the right.

You give way to traffic already on the round about - if they entered from 9 and cut across the OP they would 100% be at fault.

IMO, having driven this round about many times from multiple directions, the OP is fine. I'd be annoyed with the other driver if they cut across the round about exit like that.

_Kaiser_ · 15-02-2019 11:06am

Isambard wrote: »

he didn't do that at all, he was in one of the two correct lanes to go straight on. The other car was in the incorrect lane to be going one exit further.

This is so clearly the case, that it makes me wonder about the general standard of people's driving. Whoever taught you to drive? (answer : No one, they just sat in and drove on a Provisional)

Or they were taught by an instructor who until relatively recently didn't have to have any particular qualifications as far as I remember.

It's like the argument about slow traffic moving briefly into the hard shoulder to allow other traffic to pass. Perfectly legal (and courteous) but another one that goes around in circles here. Or the undertaking on motorways arguments (not acceptable unless in crawling traffic and incredibly dangerous at normal speeds).

As you say, it's no wonder there's so many incidents on the roads when so many people haven't even got a firm grasp of the rules in the first place.

Shefwedfan · 15-02-2019 11:14am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Or they were taught by an instructor who until relatively recently didn't have to have any particular qualifications as far as I remember.

It's like the argument about slow traffic moving briefly into the hard shoulder to allow other traffic to pass. Perfectly legal (and courteous) but another one that goes around in circles here. Or the undertaking on motorways arguments (not acceptable unless in crawling traffic and incredibly dangerous at normal speeds).

As you say, it's no wonder there's so many incidents on the roads when so many people haven't even got a firm grasp of the rules in the first place.

I have a firm grasp

It is my rules....end of story

TheChizler · 15-02-2019 11:30am

Mitch Connor wrote: »

You give way to traffic already on the round about - if they entered from 9 and cut across the OP they would 100% be at fault.

Not necessarily, they could enter at exactly the same moment in time but if they were going different speeds end up at the same exit together, with red wanting to continue past the OP. This could easily happen if the other car was in slow moving traffic but the OP had a clear run at the roundabout so was travelling much faster.

You have to treat each situation as it comes IMO, the law doesn't make reference to the previous maneuer you make, it deals with each one individually. There's no law saying 'well you must exit here if previously you entered here'. It's a non-causal system, your current state, or action, does not depend on previous actions.

How this works here is there is a guy on your left who you should be watching, especially when your lane doesn't guide you off the roundabout. I wouldn't assume someone will do what you expect based on stale information.

seamus · 15-02-2019 11:32am

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

A lot of roundabouts are marked incorrectly.

Roundabouts cannot be "marked incorrectly".

Where road markings conflict with the default rules, the road markings override the default rules. That's the law.

If you ignore the road markings and go with what you think is correct, then you are wrong.

15-02-2019 11:37am

I think this will go the 70 pages alright, you dont go around the roundabout in the outside lane though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rsdaSTOkWk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR-iuHWxbh0

Turning right, take the right lane, you can go straight from the right lane, and both these examples show that going straight is allowed from the right lane, observe signs/markings and pay heed to idiots

Neamhshuntasach · 15-02-2019 11:58am

It's unbelievable that so many people have said the OP is wrong. No wonder I can't help laughing at the state of driving here while I pass through a majority of roundabouts.

In a 2 lane roundabout without any signage or road markings stating that the right hand lane is a right turn only. You can proceed what is typically referred to as going "straight" (2nd exit or 12 o clock). Once there are 2 lanes on approach and through the roundabout. It doesn't even matter if the exit the OP took is a single lane. You can proceed straight through. Obviously watching out for traffic in the left hand lane as a car could have joined at your first exit in left lane and caught up with you. In that case, he is entitled to take what would be your 3rd exit, but is his 2nd.

But as in OP's case, they both joined from the same exit. I would never take a 3rd exit on a roundabout in the left hand lane unless there were specific road markings allowing such. In absence of them. I would always be in right hand lane.

The car in the left lane was impeding his progress by being in the incorrect lane. If i was in the right hand lane and entitled to take 2nd exit or go straight. And there was a car beside me in the left lane and we both moved off the same time. But when we came to the 2nd exit and I indicated off it but he tried to continue past that exit. I would be 100% seeing him in the wrong. He should not be there if he is passing his 2nd exit or 12 o clock. I wouldn't be driving into him as I always aware of idiots on the road. But the OP didn't crash into him either. Presumably because he used caution while exiting.

GreeBo · 15-02-2019 12:08pm

seamus wrote: »

Roundabouts cannot be "marked incorrectly".

Where road markings conflict with the default rules, the road markings override the default rules. That's the law.

If you ignore the road markings and go with what you think is correct, then you are wrong.

what about when the road markings conflict with the road signage?

TheChizler · 15-02-2019 12:23pm

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

But as in OP's case, they both joined from the same exit. I would never take a 3rd exit on a roundabout in the left hand lane unless there were specific road markings allowing such. In absence of them. I would always be in right hand lane.

The car in the left lane was impeding his progress by being in the incorrect lane. If i was in the right hand lane and entitled to take 2nd exit or go straight. And there was a car beside me in the left lane and we both moved off the same time. But when we came to the 2nd exit and I indicated off it but he tried to continue past that exit. I would be 100% seeing him in the wrong. He should not be there if he is passing his 2nd exit or 12 o clock. I wouldn't be driving into him as I always aware of idiots on the road. But the OP didn't crash into him either. Presumably because he used caution while exiting.

How do you conflate that with the Road Traffic Act 1997 section 8? (It may be supersceded but the law hasn't changed)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print#article8 wrote:

(8) A driver shall not drive from one traffic lane to another without yielding the right of way to traffic in that other lane.

Who is at fault?

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