Who is at fault?

StereoSound

Had a close call earlier, The roundabout in the attachment I hope can give people a good visual of whats going on. Luckily no collision but it was very close.... In the event of an accident I am not sure who's fault it would be ? The other person didn't indicate and I was moving to exit the roundabout and she cut me off.

Who's wrong ?

morritty

Blue, shouldn't be in the left lane if they're going right. I personally stay in the right lane unless taking first exit.

kooga

I hate those double lane roundabouts

I err on the side of caution and if that was me in red I would of been in the outside lane to take the second exit

Wildly Boaring

He's wrong.
End thread.




Now expect a 70 page mess of a thread as per the last one on this

palance

Well ye're both in the wrong lane to begin with. Red going to the 2nd exit should have been in the left-side lane in the first place. Blue, going into the 3rd exit should have been in the right-side lane. There would have been no issue then.

Cordell

Both. Blue using the wrong lane, and Red exiting without paying attention to other cars continuing through roundabout in the outer lane.

CrankyHaus

Legally you may end up with an apportionment of liability as both of you could be considered at fault and to have contributed to an accident. Her for being in the wrong lane, you for entering hers without making sure the way was clear.

Really she's entirely at fault. Following a roundabout around in the wrong lane is very dangerous and pig ignorant, I've noticed more and more people do it to skip a queue in the correct lane. On a busy roundabout it can be very difficult/impossible to know what's in your blind spot at all times. Happy to hear you avoided an accident.

theteal

They're in the wrong lane but that doesn't give you the right to not use your mirrors and attempt to exit the roundabout into them. I would put the cause of the incident on them but I'd imagine an insurance company would be looking to split liability as if the driver on the right actually looked, they'd see a car there.

I never trust fcukers on my left in such incidences.

StereoSound

I hate those double lane roundabouts to, if I'm exiting the roundabout at the point in which I did it seems to be hit and miss if the other driver to my left is going to go straight or to the right. It was a lady in an SUV. I have it on dash cam.

theteal

palance wrote: »

Well ye're both in the wrong lane to begin with. Red going to the 2nd exit should have been in the left-side lane in the first place. Blue, going into the 3rd exit should have been in the right-side lane. There would have been no issue then.

Two lanes on exit, the OPs position is fine. Blue most definitely in incorrect lane.

1874

She seems to be wrong, it may depend on the rouandabout where it can be seen by an actual picture and the markings on it, if your road markings state you can travel in that direction, then its less likely hers stated she could turn right, but you may both have been wrong, so you could have been at fault potentially.
Personally I think its wrong to go around the outside and turn right if there are cars on the offside lane (where you were).
that said you need to watch out for these people, she probably didnt know you were even there (partly blind spot/relying only on her mirrors) and indication doesnt give right of way.
I use a roundabout flyover? where I use the outside lane, there arent markings so it doesnt statutorily state it cant be done, but Im vigilant about if anyone else is near me and I would yield to them (not by stopping), if there was too much traffic just wouldnt do it.

StereoSound

The markings on the road showed that I could make the exit legally at the point I was at, she was beside me and I seen her and she seen me surely but she kept following the roundabout to the right.

Sono

All depends on the road markings on the roundabout, the third party definitely has a liability which no one can dispute, it just comes down to your portion

If your lane is right only and does not have a straight arrow then you are both in the wrong and imo it would be a 50:50.

Sono

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

He's wrong.
End thread.




Now expect a 70 page mess of a thread as per the last one on this

If only it was that simple....

rd1izb7lvpuksx

kooga wrote: »

I hate those double lane roundabouts

I err on the side of caution and if that was me in red I would of been in the outside lane to take the second exit

Red is in the outside lane?

martingriff

theteal wrote: »

Two lanes on exit, the OPs position is fine. Blue most definitely in incorrect lane.

You cant say blue in incorrect lane depend on road markings on roundabout. Admittedly never knew a 2 lane roundabout where left lane allowed to go right. Could OP give a streetview if roundabiut

XsApollo

If there are no markings on the roundabout.
I would say red is wrong and blue is definatley wrong.
By Red using the inside lane you open yourself up to someone doing that.
If you were in the outside lane you wouldn’t be in that position.
Blue is wrong full stop.

Me I use the left lane if my exit is 12 o clock or before and the righ lane for anything else.

Duffryman

OP, I'm curious about something that nobody else seems to have asked about. You say in your drawing that ‘red driver (i.e. you) indicates left to exit the roundabout at point C’.

Where exactly did you begin to indicate?

For what it’s worth, my take on this is that the other driver is clearly wrong, by approaching the roundabout in the left-hand lane when intending to take the third exit. Makes things even worse by not indicating right at any point, which would at least have given a warning notice to other drivers – ‘muppet at wheel, proceed with caution’.

Whether your actions were correct or not depends on both the road markings, and where you began to indicate.

theteal

martingriff wrote: »

You cant say blue in incorrect lane depend on road markings on roundabout. Admittedly never knew a 2 lane roundabout where left lane allowed to go right. Could OP give a streetview if roundabiut

Yes, I'm very much making an assumption there. There is one such roundabout as you come off the M1 from London to Luton, you just reminded me. . . or it could have been the satnav taking the piss

GreeBo

XsApollo wrote: »

If there are no markings on the roundabout.
I would say red is wrong and blue is definatley wrong.
By Red using the inside lane you open yourself up to someone doing that.
If you were in the outside lane you wouldn’t be in that position.
Blue is wrong full stop.

Me I use the left lane if my exit is 12 o clock or before and the righ lane for anything else.

Lots of roundabouts allow you to take the exit that red took from the lane that red was in.

No roundabouts allow you to take the exit that blue took from the lane blue was in.

You might as well say that by driving on the road you open yourself up to an oncoming car hitting you.

Not to mention that red was in the outside lane there would be another blue car that would take the first exit from the inside lane and we would have the same discussion.

All you can do is use the road as designed, if some other muppet doesnt then you try to avoid hitting them, but you are not in the wrong for using the road as designed.

seamus

In the absence of any road markings, you are primarily in the wrong. You crossed the lane of the other driver. His position may be incorrect, but he still has right of way and you would not be entitled to leave your lane without giving way.

GreeBo wrote: »

No roundabouts allow you to take the exit that blue took from the lane blue was in.

This is not correct. I can think of at least one roundabout where you may take the 3rd exit from the left-hand lane. Consequently on that roundabout you *cannot* take the second exit from the right-hand lane.

Edit, Here: https://goo.gl/maps/DsqzyHEKc9s
Look at the markings.

return guide

StereoSound wrote: »

Had a close call earlier, The roundabout in the attachment I hope can give people a good visual of whats going on. Luckily no collision but it was very close.... In the event of an accident I am not sure who's fault it would be ? The other person didn't indicate and I was moving to exit the roundabout and she cut me off.

Who's wrong ?

Had an accident like this last September.
Guy in left lane going right on the third exit, me in right lane going straight (2nd exit).
He clipped rear passanger quarter.
His insurance accepted responsibility and paid very quickly

StereoSound

I'll upload a Google map image later.

GreeBo

seamus wrote: »

In the absence of any road markings, you are primarily in the wrong. You crossed the lane of the other driver. His position may be incorrect, but he still has right of way and you would not be entitled to leave your lane without giving way.


This is not correct. I can think of at least one roundabout where you may take the 3rd exit from the left-hand lane. Consequently on that roundabout you *cannot* take the second exit from the right-hand lane.

Maybe I should have said effectively no roundabouts.
Can you share which one you are referring to, I've never seen one.

XsApollo

GreeBo wrote: »

Lots of roundabouts allow you to take the exit that red took from the lane that red was in.

No roundabouts allow you to take the exit that blue took from the lane blue was in.

You might as well say that by driving on the road you open yourself up to an oncoming car hitting you.

Not to mention that red was in the outside lane there would be another blue car that would take the first exit from the inside lane and we would have the same discussion.

All you can do is use the road as designed, if some other muppet doesnt then you try to avoid hitting them, but you are not in the wrong for using the road as designed.

If there are markings telling you to do it yes you can.
But your also crossing a lane to take the exit, so the onus is on you to cross/merge lanes safely.

I wouldn’t be in that position.

Aska

One thing that was told to me by my insurance company agent (HGV ins.) was if ever in a crash and even if it is your fault then NEVER admit that at the scene, not even a sorry to the other person because then you accept fault and her reason behind that was that the other driver may be currently off the road etc.. and in theory should not have been there. If that makes sense?

Cordell

Makes sense, don't admit and commit the insurance company to a liability that they can otherwise avoid on reduce.

cruizer101

Is the exit you took the first exit? the ways its drawn it looks like the road to the left is only and entrance onto the roundabout and not an exit.
If thats the case I would say you are more in the wrong as the left lane should be able to take the first or second exit.

Duffryman

cruizer101 wrote: »

Is the exit you took the first exit? the ways its drawn it looks like the road to the left is only and entrance onto the roundabout and not an exit.

Good point. If you can't actually take that road off the roundabout, then OP should definitely have been in the left lane, since he was bound for what would then have been the first exit himself.

GreeBo

Duffryman wrote: »

Good point. If you can't actually take that road off the roundabout, then OP should definitely have been in the left lane, since he was bound for what would then have been the first exit himself.

Exit number no longer has any bearing on the lane to be in.
Correct lane is determined based on the exits relative position to a clock face.

cruizer101

GreeBo wrote: »

Exit number no longer has any bearing on the lane to be in.
Correct lane is determined based on the exits relative position to a clock face.

****in clockface crap, its the most useless thing the RSA ever came up with.

Firstly who has a feckin helicopter view of a roundabout on approach, lots of roundabouts aren't just nice perpendicular crossroads with a roundabout slapped on top.
Secondly what about when exits don't follow nice conventions, no exits after 12? everyone into the right lane. All exits before 12, sure why did we even put in a right lane.

I'm aware of the rule but tbh for the most part stick to the old rule if it isn't specifically marked, and the sooner the get rid of that clockface brainfart the better.

Duffryman

GreeBo wrote: »

Exit number no longer has any bearing on the lane to be in.
Correct lane is determined based on the exits relative position to a clock face.

Even the clockface thing says 'If taking any exit from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane.'

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

OP here was taking an exit at 12 o'clock, according to the diagram he's drawn.

StereoSound

Here is the roundabout, compared it to my original image earlier.

circadian

No markings according to streetview but if I were you I'd have been in the left lane also to take the Glenamuck road. However, the other driver was completely in the wrong in being in the left lane to take the exit after that.

cruizer101

Its an unusual roundabout alright
We really could do with a lot more signs like this for roundabouts like that.

galwaytt

Red is 100% correct positionally, irrespective, and here's why:

Two-lanes-on, two-lanes off exist to increase volume of traffic through the roundabout and to keep the feeder roads moving.

In particular the traffic coming from the exit to OP's left -B - can enter the roundabout and take the first left without either flow being impeded, and traffic in two streams is therefore kept moving all the time.

To go from the Red line, into the L.H. is comletely wrong, impedes the blue line (going correctly straight ahead) and also impedes traffic exiting from that first exit.

You enter the Red, exit the Red and then once away from the roundabout, the L.H. being clear, you make a formal lane change into it.

Duffryman

Have to say I was expecting a Streetview image myself, not a satellite photo. I've attached an image here of what I think is the same spot. Is this it?

Either way, worth noting that the first road ('A') allows for entry onto the roundabout only, and NOT for exit off it.

StereoSound

Duffryman wrote: »

Have to say I was expecting a Streetview image myself, not a satellite photo. I've attached an image here of what I think is the same spot. Is this it?

Either way, worth noting that the first road ('A') allows for entry onto the roundabout only, and NOT for exit off it.

It's the same roundabout yes, further up at the next exit. I cannot seem to get a street view image of the exact exit from my phone though.

StereoSound

Ok here we go, here is the exact spot where I made my exit. Me Red, Other driver blue. Is my exit right or wrong ?

circadian

StereoSound wrote: »

Ok here we go, here is the exact spot where I made my exit. Me Red, Other driver blue. Is my exit right or wrong ?

You're fine if you ask me, blue is supposed to only take that exit for this very reason.

GreeBo

Duffryman wrote: »

Even the clockface thing says 'If taking any exit from the 6 o’clock to the 12 o’clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane.'

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

OP here was taking an exit at 12 o'clock, according to the diagram he's drawn.

Yep, generally unless a situation like tje OP where two exit lanes or signsge.

Duffryman

Again, I'd say tough to tell for sure without seeing the road markings on the approach to that roundabout. But since there are two lanes on the exit you wanted to take, you'd generally be okay to be in the right-hand lane on the approach.

Incidentally, my earlier question about where exactly you started to indicate is now moot, as we've since established that the first road (which you marked 'A') can't be used as an exit anyway.

All agree that the other driver was in the wrong lane, if he/she intended to take the next exit, rather than continue straight through like you wanted to do yourself.

Only thing that remains is that technical point that somebody else raised, about how it could be viewed that you went to cut across another person's lane when it wasn't safe to do so, notwithstanding the fact that the other person was in the wrong lane in the first place. I'd speculate though that if a collision had occurred, and it came down to insurance companies or a civil court to rule on it, the verdict would be that the other driver was mostly at fault. It would just have to be established to what degree. Could be 60-40, could be 90-10.

Sono

StereoSound wrote: »

Ok here we go, here is the exact spot where I made my exit. Me Red, Other driver blue. Is my exit right or wrong ?

You are both wrong, the person in the left lane could be coming from 9 o’clock and is perfectly entitled to drive past that exit in that lane if they are.

mgbgt1978

Maybe you might take a look at the picture attached to the very 1st post.

Both Cars entered from the same road.
The driver in the L/H lane than proceeded to go to at least the 3 o'clock exit....this is totally at odds with the Rules of the Road.

Duffryman

Sono wrote: »

You are both wrong, the person in the left lane could be coming from 9 o’clock and is perfectly entitled to drive past that exit in that lane if they are.

This too is a good point, which hadn't occurred to me. May well be the case that OP should have been in the left lane on the approach after all, for that very reason. Again, being able to see the road markings on the approach would help hugely.

TheChizler

Looks like you crossed a broken lane marking to exit, in general on any road you give way to people already in their lane. A roundabout doesn't change that IMO. This is made worse by them not following the normal convention.

Imagine they had entered the roundabout from 9 o'clock. You would be in the exact same positions but they would much more clearly be in the right.

seamus

If they entered from the same road as you - that is the road coming from Leopardstown - then the lanes are clearly marked and he cannot take the 3 o'clock exit from that lane.

But as you were behind him, it would probably be 50:50 due to your general obligation to give way and not assume the actions of other traffic.

rpmcs

I have simple rule in my head with two lanes into round about.
Left lane... straight on or left only(1st exit)
Right lane straight on or right only(any exits past the straight on exit)
But as many have said it would be hard to get insurance company to admit this in my opinion.

Duffryman

I've been back to Google Maps and Streetview, and seems to be the case that the pic I posted is of the approach road that OP and other motorist took, and the pic he posted is of the exit that he intended to take.

I've gone back a bit along that approach road, and it turns out there are no road markings to indicate which lane to take on the roundabout. Not exactly helpful.

At least, there were no markings when the Google Streetview car did its thing. I suppose they might have been added in the meantime, but that's no use to us here.

grogi

Ireland... A country where establishing who's at fault at simple roundabout takes hours of debating...

grogi

StereoSound wrote: »

Ok here we go, here is the exact spot where I made my exit. Me Red, Other driver blue. Is my exit right or wrong ?

Do you cross dashed line? If yes, yield to those that don't cross it. Simples.