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Lead ban

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    GooseB wrote: »

    It's quite quick to fill in, takes about 2 minutes.

    https://www.face.eu/2020/12/hunters-survey-on-lead/

    Click on the green box labelled "English" to launch the survey itself.


    I think it took a bit more than 2 minutes, tbh - but no doubt that its worth completing.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    With all this talk of banning lead I hope they (The authorities) put as much effort in to banning plastic. The amount of damage plastic is doing to the environment and humans (microbeads) must far outweigh the damage lead in hunting is doing. If any damage is being done at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    With all this talk of banning lead I hope they (The authorities) put as much effort in to banning plastic. The amount of damage plastic is doing to the environment and humans (microbeads) must far outweigh the damage lead in hunting is doing. If any damage is being done at all.

    Nothing to do with the environment Minktrapper, its gun control pure and simple, which is why some of the eastern European countries, like the Czech republic are fighting it so hard.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭ace86


    GooseB wrote: »
    The hunting group FACE is looking for hunters to complete a survey regarding lead ammunition - that's ALL lead ammunition, not just shotguns. I don't hunt but filled it in any way, Q.2 in the survey asks if you're a hunter or not so they know where I was coming from. There are still questions regarding your non hunting related shooting so obviously these still applied to me. Just wanted my head counted even if I just target shoot as the ban will effect us all regardless - they don't want civilians with any guns and that's the final goal with all this.

    It's quite quick to fill in, takes about 2 minutes.

    https://www.face.eu/2020/12/hunters-survey-on-lead/

    Click on the green box labelled "English" to launch the survey itself.
    From reading the survey there predicting by 2030 that all lead shot will be phased out for hunting and non hunting by the looks of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    tudderone wrote: »
    Nothing to do with the environment Minktrapper, its gun control pure and simple, which is why some of the eastern European countries, like the Czech republic are fighting it so hard.

    Is that because of their close proximity to Russia and a fear of communism.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Is that because of their close proximity to Russia and a fear of communism.

    Forty plus years of living under a communist dictatorship would make you a bit cynical of unaccountable, faceless, pan-nationalist organisations, which the eu seems to be becoming.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Or from invasions from the West particularly from Berlin to annex areas that have got some faint trace of German ethnicity.Be like Ireland invading Iceland or the Scottish isles as they are "Irish" living there from slave raids in the early middle ages.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Plastic ammo anyone ? More plastic microbeads in the water, fish, meat and every other bloody thing.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Bundeswehr training ammo...Comes or came in 9mm and 7.62 NATO.Still leathl enough.I believe some German police had an accident with it in 9mm in a killing house arena where one officer caught one in the chest and died.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    I remember some rounds like that but they were black and had alloy rims.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    They are blanks.
    The "bullet" part deforms and ruptures when fired.
    Were all over the forests in Germany when the US army came thru on annual Summer manoeuvres where we live.

    Nothing like been woken up at 6 AM in Summer by the helicopter attack scene from "Apocalypse Now "coming down the valley at treetop height on their way to hit the imaginary hordes of the Red army sweeping Westwards.:)
    Good times!:)

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    FACE Statement:


    Europe has received clear answer over claims of maladministration
    Statement by FACE President, Torbjörn Larsson - 22/12/2020.
    Back in May, many national and European politicians expressed serious concerns over the European Commission’s (DG Environment) handling of the lead shot over wetlands restriction under REACH.
    It was claimed (e.g. see link) that the Nature Protection Unit within DG Environment was in breach of the rules by encouraging national representatives in an expert group to actively engage to ensure a positive vote on a legal proposal (lead shot over wetlands) that had exclusive competence within another formal committee under REACH.
    This was a serious claim about maladministration affecting millions of citizens within the European Union. More importantly, a claim about a union of Member States and institutions that is founded on strong principles of democracy, transparency and the rule of law.
    At the time, I met with Virginijus Sinkevičius, the Commissioner for Environment, Oceans and Fisheries and raised the concerns of citizens in the European hunting community. Many Members of the European Parliament raised concerns too, but the Commission denied any misconduct (e.g. see link). However, following a complaint to the European Ombudsman, the result, which was just published, is clear:
    “…the Ombudsman considers that the Commission’s request went beyond what is appropriate to promote its legitimate interest when it explicitly asked NADEG members to contact their national authorities to advocate for a positive vote on the draft Commission Regulation. In accordance with the rules governing expert groups, the role of these groups is to provide advice and expertise to the Commission. Their role does not ostensibly extend to influencing a vote in a comitology committee.
    NOTE TO EDITORS: FACE is the European Federation for Hunting and Conservation. Established in 1977, FACE represents the interests of Europe’s 7 million hunters as an
    international non-profit-making nongovernmental organisation. FACE is made up of national hunters’ associations from 37 European countries including the EU-28. FACE is
    supported by 7 associate members and is based in Brussels. FACE upholds the principle of sustainable use and has been a member of the International Union for the
    Conservation of Nature (IUCN) since 1987. Visit www.face.eu
    FOR FURTHER INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT: Alessio Borrello, Communication Manager – alessio.borrello@face.eu
    The Ombudsman further stated that such “an expert group is not the appropriate forum for the Commission to make a request such as the one that it made to NADEG members” adding that “that the Commission’s request to NADEG members was not appropriate in this case”.
    As President of FACE, my view on this is clear: EU democracy has failed millions of European citizens. The Commission acted in breach of procedural rules and due practice on a file that will affect millions of citizens. The Members of the European Parliament reacted but need to be much stronger in the future when such serious claims of maladministration are made.
    Europe has received a clear answer on these claims. I trust that there will be critical lessons learned and consequences resulting from this significant Ombudsman verdict.
    FACE works closely with the Nature Protection Unit, which is responsible for the implementation of the EU’s nature directives.
    Torbjörn Larsson, President of FACE (22 December 2020).


  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    Bottom line:


    The EU Ombudswoman found that the EC was involved in maladministration by instructing the NADEG experts from each member state to instruct the reach representative from each member state to vote for the restriction ' Lead Shot over Wetlands.


    In other words they fouled the ball to get the measure passed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    berettaman wrote: »
    Bottom line:


    The EU Ombudswoman found that the EC was involved in maladministration by instructing the NADEG experts from each member state to instruct the reach representative from each member state to vote for the restriction ' Lead Shot over Wetlands.


    In other words they fouled the ball to get the measure passed.

    Quelle suprise


  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    berettaman wrote: »
    Bottom line:


    The EU Ombudswoman found that the EC was involved in maladministration by instructing the NADEG experts from each member state to instruct the reach representative from each member state to vote for the restriction ' Lead Shot over Wetlands.


    In other words they fouled the ball to get the measure passed.


    As far as I know FACE Ireland and NARGC lodged a complaint about this matter.


    They broke their own rules. They are caught rotten on this.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    berettaman wrote: »
    As far as I know FACE Ireland and NARGC lodged a complaint about this matter.


    They broke their own rules. They are caught rotten on this.

    Unfortunately it seems that it won't go any further that this.

    https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/136305

    Conclusion: "No further inquiries are justified on the basis of this complaint"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    so IOW,"you were very naughty boys and girls,so don't do it again!" type conclusion.
    Wonder would it have been different if Emly ORiely had looked at this?
    She was a brilliant ombudsman here in Ireland, and I owe her a debt of gratitude as she personally fought my case to get my information released from the Dept of Justice and AGS under the FOIA when they were stalling out and obfuscating.:rolleyes:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Unfortunately it seems that it won't go any further that this.

    https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/136305

    Conclusion: "No further inquiries are justified on the basis of this complaint"

    I'll think you'll find this is usually the case. Breaking their own fiscal/budget rules ? Ah shure be grand, don't do it again.................until the next time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    Bollox on that. They can't break rules and let it pass.. why bother having rules..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Bollox on that. They can't break rules and let it pass.. why bother having rules..

    The ends justify the means......................


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    "In an age that is utterly corrupt, the best policy is to do as others do."
    - Marquis de Sade, 1788

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭J.R.




  • Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    Survey Completed
    :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    Done


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Done a long time ago...WOW! 156 people actually signed this in the shooting community...I'm impressed at the positive and fast response so typical of Irish shooters!!![Sarcasm mode ]

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 283 ✭✭Mississippi.


    Ment to do it that time in the middle of December when GooseB put it up but some how never did.
    Done now and passed on to a few non boardies friends


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I filled it in ages ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭yubabill


    Just saw it 5 mins ago and DONE.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭Fastnet50


    Long done.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭paulireland


    Done


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    How will you shoot safely without lead on steel?
    Steel on steel is not a good idea as Mr Miculek demonstrates.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    How will you shoot safely without lead on steel?
    Steel on steel is not a good idea as Mr Miculek demonstrates.

    This steel shot rubbish is going to be a fckuing disaster :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭ace86


    tudderone wrote: »
    This steel shot rubbish is going to be a fckuing disaster :mad:

    Well hopefully for competition shooting lead will be available but I suppose if u know Europe and there hitler ideas they will be pushing for all shooting of steel shot. The thing with this new lead shot who is going to police it and where will our steel loads come from bcos they will be dearer bcos of brexit and a lot of countries I think import from USA but there loads are good but like anti aircraft Rds on you after firing I’d say lol.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭GooseB


    Here's the next step, now it's all lead bullets they're after. 6 month consultation period beginning on the 24th of March. Decision made mid 2022. That 6 month period doesn't give much time for "rubust scientific evidence" to be prepared to argue against the ban. 5 year implementation period for smallbore/rimfire, 18 month transition period for centrefire. Possible derogations for range shooting with adequate bullet catchment/traps. Note- that's only a maybe.

    https://echa.europa.eu/-/towards-sustainable-outdoor-shooting-and-fishing-echa-proposes-restrictions-on-lead-use?utm_source=echa-weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly&utm_content=20210203&_cldee=YXNhLnJlZG1vbmRAeWFob28uaWU%3d&recipientid=lead-1a7503642b24eb118125005056b9310e-64e36442d9c941cfa5170e99dff78986&esid=3abd50cb-0d66-eb11-8128-005056b9310e


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    OH !!What a surprise!!! For those who have been saying that it didn't affect their rifle ammo and target shooting club!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ayagerard


    at least now when the dust settles every one will be reading the same page and the rabbit can now see the hound, (well now i suppose it was all the lead that we could not see this coming slow learners and all ) but we are still allowed to drink water that has gone through lead pipes and will the wee birds be able to regurgitate the steel from their gizzards ?????????????????????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭Fastnet50


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    OH !!What a surprise!!! For those who have been saying that it didn't affect their rifle ammo and target shooting club!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I do not think many people thought it would not affect rifle and pistol ammunition as the intentions are and have been for a long time very clear. No real point in the above quote maybe other than to say I told you so. Even if ranges put in bullet catchers lead ammo will be severely restricted to club sales and more expensive. Judging by the few people that seem concerned about this in our country let us hope some of the bigger European organisations can turn this around somewhat. what a disaster this will be for the hunting and shooting fraternity all over Europe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Fastnet50 wrote: »
    I do not think many people thought it would not affect rifle and pistol ammunition as the intentions are and have been for a long time very clear. No real point in the above quote maybe other than to say I told you so. Even if ranges put in bullet catchers lead ammo will be severely restricted to club sales and more expensive. Judging by the few people that seem concerned about this in our country let us hope some of the bigger European organisations can turn this around somewhat. what a disaster this will be for the hunting and shooting fraternity all over Europe.

    Seeing the way the EU are treating law abiding shooters, I can now totally understand the mentality of not giving one single inch that the NRA and the 2A guys in the States have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭Fastnet50


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Seeing the way the EU are treating law abiding shooters, I can now totally understand the mentality of not giving one single inch that the NRA and the 2A guys in the States have.

    Me too although the NRA did nothing to stop the sale of lead ammo in California a state the EHCA continually refer back to for justifying this action. also I think lead free ammo seems to be taking a grip on other US states. Total ****storm this.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Fastnet50 wrote: »
    I do not think many people thought it would not affect rifle and pistol ammunition as the intentions are and have been for a long time very clear. No real point in the above quote maybe other than to say I told you so. Even if ranges put in bullet catchers lead ammo will be severely restricted to club sales and more expensive. Judging by the few people that seem concerned about this in our country let us hope some of the bigger European organisations can turn this around somewhat. what a disaster this will be for the hunting and shooting fraternity all over Europe.

    Unfortunately, some people are just slow learners and were told this in organisations and decided to ignore or pooh pooh it.
    There is a certain amount of "schadenfreude" in this but maybe finally people will take early warnings more seriously in future both here and abroad. And sorry to tell you the bigger hunting and shooting orgs have little to zero chance of turning this either, as they had little to no effect with the lead shot ban either.as it is hard to argue with the common held premise that "lead is bad...In any shape or form"

    Here you all go...It's not good reading!!
    https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/95cc3061-7d88-67d0-b932-51d2606a50f3?fbclid=IwAR3XwtZ10KWhBb8pEnivFhpYkcywbF6ue6JW473pIiCB6rzdcWAIieTSPEA

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    And just when you thought things couldn't get any worse...................they did :(.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 667 ✭✭✭SVI40


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Seeing the way the EU are treating law abiding shooters, I can now totally understand the mentality of not giving one single inch that the NRA and the 2A guys in the States have.

    There in is the issue. We always gave, gave, and gave again, and never got anything it return. It was a one way street all the way, when we should have been standing up to them. Better to go down fighting, than go down meekly.

    So sick to death of our sport being attached 24/7/365, by clowns who have no idea on what they are talking about! :mad::mad::mad:

    Rant over!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    SVI40 wrote: »
    There in is the issue. We always gave, gave, and gave again, and never got anything it return. It was a one way street all the way, when we should have been standing up to them. Better to go down fighting, than go down meekly.

    So sick to death of our sport being attached 24/7/365, by clowns who have no idea on what they are talking about! :mad::mad::mad:

    Rant over!

    Hasn't that always been the way ? This will pass too, they only float these stupid ideas when its a fait accompli.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    What we can do about it
    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/
    here in is the issue. We always gave, gave, and gave again, and never got anything it return. It was a one way street all the way, when we should have been standing up to them. Better to go down fighting, than go down meekly.

    So sick to death of our sport being attached 24/7/365, by clowns who have no idea on what they are talking about!

    Are we mad enough yet?? this is why there is now a new generation of more aggressive no-compromise gun lobby groups starting to appear in Europe and the US. Staid,plaid groups who go" meet, greet, eat and retreat" are going to lose their positions as they have got too comfortable for years now.
    People are getting angry,and we should channel our anger into constructive anger to support our lifestyle choice

    If any of you had a look at that report link and this 200-page document.You should be UP in arms by now! :mad:
    https://echa.europa.eu/documents/101...rzdcWAIieTSPEA
    As this will finish off 95% of the clay and shooting ranges in Ireland without huge and significant outlay! You certainly can kiss the "flapper" clay shoot goodbye under these proposals, as well as ranges with Berms as bullet catchers.

    I don't post this stuff for the craic lads...If this gets thru ALL of our shooting and clay ranges have big choices to make, and that is either close up or comply with these proposed new regulations BIGLY and spend a lot of money to stay in business.:mad:
    You need to start getting angry on a personal level about this if you want to continue shooting.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,070 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp




  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ayagerard


    while we gave gave and again again their was some logic in their argument for the betterment of mankind ???or the lesser of 2 evils ?? not forgetting the shady deals that have been done behind closed doors ,they were all the same and they were all taken from us,
    there is no logic in this ,
    copper bullets are not great even in bigger calibers 270 up from penciling to key -holing to exploding, 17s and 22 reduced to pcp sort of ranges , pellet guns to blow pipes ,with about the same accuracy,

    steel shot , range about 35-40 yards, might smoke a clay at 50 if you have a good pattern, wheres the fun in that, a lot more wounded and this is where the next problem for all shooting men will develop, its OK to shoot another person human being with lead but not a bird or an animal , steel festers and copper poisons how much lead was scattered around in the first and second world wars these sites must be toxic if lead is this bad what have they done with them ,
    the only good that i can see coming from this f>>> up is that 243 should become the new minimum for the humane dispatch of foxes, the guards can forget about 308 and up being restricted whereby saving themselves a lot of paperwork ,
    if shooting is not to stay dying at the same pase it is currently all shooting men and women off all nations need to stand together no good unless we have a million +1 might be heard
    the next fight will make or brake


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Its death by slow strangulation.

    Remove certain types of firearms or make them difficult to own (semi-auto's or anything "Military"). Insist on deer hunting courses, like the ones in Germany that are nearly to degree standards. Ban lead and insist on copper bullets, only five times the price of lead, and probably limited availability in a whole range of rounds like anything obscure or less commonly used.

    Insist on air filtration systems on ranges that are like something out of a NASA lab. Make "combat" shooting sports like ipsc illegal, and who the hell would bother with shooting anymore.


    Anyone get the NARGC Game shot booklet ? A lot of seriously unimpressed people with the eu, writing in it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    My local FF/FG/Green TD's are about to get calls from me saying that if this comes in, they can fcuk off if they think they'll ever get a vote from me again (not that the Greens ever got a vote). They need to get on to their MEP colleagues and tell them that this is a non-runner.

    I'll tell them I'm going to vote for the Shinners.

    I'm about to get awfully active writing and phoning all of my public representatives.


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