Lead ban

Grizzly 45

dto001 wrote: »

Is there a list of these anywhere? so at least you can send a few emails or add them to a petition which could be put around europe to the hunting community as a whole. It might be late but as the old saying goes better late than never. we could sit back now and bitch and moan about it but at least we could go down kicking and screaming

Here's our shower for a start.:rolleyes: bunch of Greenies, and Lefties and
EU parliment cash checkers
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/ireland/en/your-meps

And here is the EU list of MEPS in Pdf ,by surname initials.:)

https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/dataset/members-of-the-european-parliament

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/europe-votes-on-lead-restrictions

Bunch of asshats them:mad:. Not 6 months ago they were talking out the other side of their faces welcoming this development.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/24/uk-hunting-groups-call-for-end-to-use-of-lead-ammunition-by-2025

The same bunch that welcomed a ban in the UK on "bump stocks"..Considering they have had nothing that one can be fitted to in the UK since post Hungerford in 1987:rolleyes::rolleyes:
A lot of UK shooters are waking up to the fact that all BASC is intrested in is members paying them for a comfortable lifestyle,and they compromise and bend the knee on eveerything to keep that status quo.:mad:

Brontosaurus

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Here's our shower for a start.:rolleyes: bunch of Greenies, and Lefties and
EU parliment cash checkers
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/ireland/en/your-meps

And here is the EU list of MEPS in Pdf ,by surname initials.:)

https://data.europa.eu/euodp/en/data/dataset/members-of-the-european-parliament

Maybe we could get template/draft with good info demonstrating how unworkable and pointless this bill is? Might be better than rants and ravings.

As for the issue of wetland designation, I've done a course on ecology before, here's a map app where you can toggle a habitat overlay:

https://maps.biodiversityireland.ie/Map

It's a bit sluggish and poorly laid out but it might be useful. Make sure you're zoomed in a fair bit, you won't be able to toggle it otherwise. It's called "Fossit Wetlands" under the "Habitats" tab. It seems to overlay ALL habitats regardless, so you'll have to figure out which habitats are wetland. They use codes for the website, you can click on the map to reveal what designation a habitat is rather than try and use the legend.

The codes correspond to Fossit's "A Guide to Habitats in Ireland": https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20Habitats%20in%20Ireland%20-%20Fossitt.pdf


It's a bit of a cludge to use, but it is what it is.

From what I remember this guide bases its classification on NPWS and EU definitions. I find it very strange that the EU has decided to base its classification of wetlands on the vague RAMSAR convention rather than the Habitats Directive.

Anyway, Fossit is used extensively in Ireland by NPWS, conservation groups and Consultancies doing assessments. It'll give a good general idea of how much of Ireland could be considered off-limits to anyone using leadshot. If the EU is sensible, which they aren't, this should only impact designated protected habitats and exclude what is considered "Improved Grassland", in other words arable land and fields used for amenities. Even then, some ranges are literally on wetlands, and I really do not think this legislation will do a lick of ****e for the environment.

Hope that's helpful anyway.

EDIT: Seems like the map doesn't give full coverage of the whole country

tudderone

Brontosaurus wrote: »

Maybe we could get template/draft with good info demonstrating how unworkable and pointless this bill is? Might be better than rants and ravings.

As for the issue of wetland designation, I've done a course on ecology before, here's a map app where you can toggle a habitat overlay:

https://maps.biodiversityireland.ie/Map

It's a bit sluggish and poorly laid out but it might be useful. Make sure you're zoomed in a fair bit, you won't be able to toggle it otherwise. It's called "Fossit Wetlands" under the "Habitats" tab. It seems to overlay ALL habitats regardless, so you'll have to figure out which habitats are wetland. They use codes for the website, you can click on the map to reveal what designation a habitat is rather than try and use the legend.

The codes correspond to Fossit's "A Guide to Habitats in Ireland": https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/A%20Guide%20to%20Habitats%20in%20Ireland%20-%20Fossitt.pdf


It's a bit of a cludge to use, but it is what it is.

From what I remember this guide bases its classification on NPWS and EU definitions. I find it very strange that the EU has decided to base its classification of wetlands on the vague RAMSAR convention rather than the Habitats Directive.

Anyway, Fossit is used extensively in Ireland by NPWS, conservation groups and Consultancies doing assessments. It'll give a good general idea of how much of Ireland could be considered off-limits to anyone using leadshot. If the EU is sensible, which they aren't, this should only impact designated protected habitats and exclude what is considered "Improved Grassland", in other words arable land and fields used for amenities. Even then, some ranges are literally on wetlands, and I really do not think this legislation will do a lick of ****e for the environment.

Hope that's helpful anyway.

EDIT: Seems like the map doesn't give full coverage of the whole country

There is a small map of the european countries in the link below showing the ramsar wetlands. To be honest it looks as if more of Ireland is wetland than isn't. Certainly most of the western and midland counties.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/life/publications/lifepublications/lifefocus/documents/wetlands.pdf

Brontosaurus

tudderone wrote: »

There is a small map of the european countries in the link below showing the ramsar wetlands. To be honest it looks as if more of Ireland is wetland than isn't. Certainly most of the western and midland counties.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/archives/life/publications/lifepublications/lifefocus/documents/wetlands.pdf

I was digging around and found the "Irish Ramsar Wetlands Commitee", and they had a link to this map of Irish wetlands: http://www.wetlandsurveysireland.com/wetlands/map-of-irish-wetlands--/map-of-irish-wetlands---map/index.html

Yeah, it's pretty much most of the country...

dto001

The only thing is that now that they have banned lead in wetland areas and Ireland is essentially wetland then surely compensation has to be made if you gun can't fire steel.

paulireland

When push comes to shove what are the practical alternatives if the ban comes in and what will the cost rises be

tudderone

paulireland wrote: »

When push comes to shove what are the practical alternatives if the ban comes in and what will the cost rises be

Copper, Bismuth, Tungsten matrix, steel, none work as well as plain old lead though. I would have thought steel shells would be cheaper, as steel is cheaper than lead, but the shot is probably harder to make. I see copper shot cartridges for about 15 euros a box, Bismuth is hugely expensive, over 40 euros a box of 25.

Grizzly 45

The utter irony being bismuth is a lead manufacturing byproduct seems lost on many "experts":rolleyes:

The only thing is that now that they have banned lead in wetland areas and Ireland is essentially wetland then surely compensation has to be made if you gun can't fire steel.

Probably not As they haven't banned your gun per se,and haven't banned you from owning a particular type either,they are jut banning what you shoot out of it.Plus it is possible with certain types of shotguns to get them steel proofed by getting the chokes opened up,so they can argue that you can possibly get your gun modified as well?[Ignoring the extra costs this makes for you of course]
However,a case could possibly made that because we here in Ireland dont [1] have a proof house and
[2] our restrictive gun laws will make it an extra burden and cost on getting them re choked and re proved outside the ROI,that EU assistance should be offered to help sort this problem out?

richiedel123

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

no_4

The alternatives to lead are very expensive
Steel can be 2x
Bismuth h6x
Titanium 10x ?

tudderone wrote: »

Copper, Bismuth, Tungsten matrix, steel, none work as well as plain old lead though. I would have thought steel shells would be cheaper, as steel is cheaper than lead, but the shot is probably harder to make. I see copper shot cartridges for about 15 euros a box, Bismuth is hugely expensive, over 40 euros a box of 25.

keith s

richiedel123 wrote: »

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

15 quid and on your way!

tudderone

They can sod off them and their 15 quid.

BattleCorp

richiedel123 wrote: »

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

keith s wrote: »

15 quid and on your way!

It has to be a fake.

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

The alternatives to lead are very expensive
Steel can be 2x
Bismuth h6x
Titanium 10x ?

But will the price of steel fall dramatically when economies of scale kick in ? Few people are shooting steel because they don't really have to and therefore the manufacturers don't make so much of it, if everyone is forced to shoot it then they can make much more of it and the price should drop ? Or am i being naive ?

solarwinds

I would say fake, I do not see the need to involve the NPWS in a scheme for surrendering guns.

I see solid copper being talked about a lot as a substitute for hunting rounds, problem is copper is very toxic to aquatic life. So by the time they have removed lead completely and we are using copper rounds, guess what that will also be banned in wetlands.

hiddenmongoose

What about deer stalking in open peaty grounds like in Donegal Mayo etc, surely that will be wetland too technically, are we ment go to copper solids now too. absolutely ridiculous

GooseB

What about deer stalking in open peaty grounds like in Donegal Mayo etc, surely that will be wetland too technically, are we ment go to copper solids now too. absolutely ridiculous

Going by the maps referred to earlier, it won't really matter where you go, the entire country will be a wetland more or less. I was told the 10th of October was when the next change is being put forward or discussed. That's on the banning of lead from all ammunition for civilian use everywhere in the EU.

So yes, you'll have to use copper solids or some alternative but no lead. It'll be for shotguns for not just hunting but for them all like for shooting clays, indoor air pistols, hunting deer, target shooting, the whole shebang. And everything written about it that I can find is biased towards banning lead. So many articles claiming "lead alternatives are around for years, are easily available, are better than lead", etc, etc. I watched a Youtube video by 22Plinkster on copper .22lr ammo and his groups at 25 yards were worse than mine at 50 metres, it's crap. And dearer.

Grizzly 45

richiedel123 wrote: »

Just seen this floating about on facebook. If this is true we really need to start fighting

FAKE NEWS!!!
Someone taking the urine..Would have to be AGS handling something like this. Plus it has to be market value in good times.

Grizzly 45

GooseB wrote: »

Going by the maps referred to earlier, it won't really matter where you go, the entire country will be a wetland more or less. I was told the 10th of October was when the next change is being put forward or discussed. That's on the banning of lead from all ammunition for civilian use everywhere in the EU.

So yes, you'll have to use copper solids or some alternative but no lead. It'll be for shotguns for not just hunting but for them all like for shooting clays, indoor air pistols, hunting deer, target shooting, the whole shebang. And everything written about it that I can find is biased towards banning lead. So many articles claiming "lead alternatives are around for years, are easily available, are better than lead", etc, etc. I watched a Youtube video by 22Plinkster on copper .22lr ammo and his groups at 25 yards were worse than mine at 50 metres, it's crap. And dearer.

Remember ,Its "granted planning permission" not a completed building for a long while yet on both shotgun and other ammo.. Not to mind the first few cases going to the EU court of human rights with this reverse onous of proof of innocence clause by the 1st person arrested in Ireland for having lead shot in his possesion 100 meters from a heavy rainfall puddle in a field.:rolleyes:
Those points have to be dumped from the legislation,and our people,pro hunting and shooting groups and MEPs need to be in on this at all stages .

tudderone

GooseB wrote: »

Going by the maps referred to earlier, it won't really matter where you go, the entire country will be a wetland more or less. I was told the 10th of October was when the next change is being put forward or discussed. That's on the banning of lead from all ammunition for civilian use everywhere in the EU.

So yes, you'll have to use copper solids or some alternative but no lead. It'll be for shotguns for not just hunting but for them all like for shooting clays, indoor air pistols, hunting deer, target shooting, the whole shebang. And everything written about it that I can find is biased towards banning lead. So many articles claiming "lead alternatives are around for years, are easily available, are better than lead", etc, etc. I watched a Youtube video by 22Plinkster on copper .22lr ammo and his groups at 25 yards were worse than mine at 50 metres, it's crap. And dearer.

I was watching this the other day, ok for lads knocking the odd few deer throughout the season, maybe using a box of ammo for the whole lot, but anyone shooting target, or a lot of foxes, it could get expensive real quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7HAkJJfusI

keith s

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, however (as I put on my tinfoil hat), this thing sticks of a well thought out plan to remove firearms from people.

Step 1: Ban lead in wetlands
Step 2: Completey ban lead
Step 3: Remove all firearms that are only able to use lead (no justification for your request to possess that firarm, as per the requirements of your application for a licence for that firearms).

Step 4: Look at next type of ammo that can be classified as toxic / hazardous.
....
.....


The perposal is riddled with holes.
Have they done autopsies on birds that where found dead (not shot) where it was proved that lead poisoning had killed them, and that the lead that poisoned them was in fact from shotguns?

How did such a half baked, wishy washy definition of "wetlands" weigh-in to a legislative consideration that has such drastic measure.

JohnFitz2332

F**k. Right, I'm gonna see if I can get my ammo limit increased to 100k rounds per firearm

no_4

It’s a fair question but another factor is that people are sfraid to use steel in older guns and even in newer guns you can’t use chokes tighter than half


quote="tudderone;114527988"]But will the price of steel fall dramatically when economies of scale kick in ? Few people are shooting steel because they don't really have to and therefore the manufacturers don't make so much of it, if everyone is forced to shoot it then they can make much more of it and the price should drop ? Or am i being naive ?[/quote]

tudderone

no_4 wrote: »

It’s a fair question but another factor is that people are sfraid to use steel in older guns and even in newer guns you can’t use chokes tighter than half

Which is pretty useless for wildfowling :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Another good argument against the lead ban. Shotgun ammo is HARD lead, not soft lead like in petrol or paints and is very insoluble even with hydrochloric acid.

Counterarrangement to the #ban on lead
Bullet lead is - unlike lead in gasoline, paints and drinking water pipes - hard lead. Solid lead, which is also coated with a layer of lead after a very short time, is difficult to lock even with concentrated hydrochloric acid, whose pH is not even close to being reached in the stomachs of sea eagles, and therefore not absorbable for the body.
It is therefore still the question of which lead intake in the water birds leads to lead poisoning: the solid lead of the lead red (or the old burdens from two world wars) or the dissolved lead in cereals, vegetables, lead-containing drinking water pipes etc.
The number of hundred thousand birds that died from lead poisoning sounds horrible, but is small knowing that 90 million birds in Europe are dying of glass panes and 500 million are killed by free range domestic cats or alone in Germany 2 million in power lines and hundreds of thousands of wind turbines.
The numbers may vote for lead-burdened birds. One probably assumes an average of 3,5 % of a population. But not that they die of lead themselves and die as agonizing as in the animal experiments, which are led as a study.
Birds become much more prey by predators or hunters or die from another disease as early as possible. For example, the causal lead load is often found when the
Cause of death not recognized at all.
Image source from this study:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147189
#EUAmmoBan

cavan shooter

As someone with 3 guns that won't fire steel and can't afford to replace them, this is a pain in the ass and I'm hoping something will get sorted. Standard steel shot won't kill at 30 yards. High performance steel shot wont/can't be used in my gun of vintage 2001/1979/1971. That leaves me with a choice of using bismuth at £39.0 for a box of 30g 6s or giving up shooting.

tudderone

cavan shooter wrote: »

As someone with 3 guns that won't fire steel and can't afford to replace them, this is a pain in the ass and I'm hoping something will get sorted. Standard steel shot won't kill at 30 yards. High performance steel shot wont/can't be used in my gun of vintage 2001/1979/1971. That leaves me with a choice of using bismuth at £39.0 for a box of 30g 6s or giving up shooting.

I think a lot of lads are in the same boat, i certainly am. Its not that i cannot afford to replace the shotguns i have, but i have the guns i own for years, why should i get rid of them because some pox-doctors clerk in brussels says so ?

hiddenmongoose

cavan shooter wrote: »

or giving up shooting.

This is the real outcome they want ... nothing to do with reducing lead, as if it were there are bigger fish than us to be considered. Stealth anti firearms legislation is all it is.

Grizzly 45

All is not lost ...Yet! there are also Lead Alloys that could be used and are acceptable once we figure out how or why the EU wont accept them either,yet will accept bismuth?