New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Except for the south central swathe between the (current) LUAS lines, and the area around the Malahide Road - those areas would still require a major city centre bus operation.

They aren’t inconsequential by any means.

Indeed I agree that that swathe of the city would still need a rail artery to plug the gap and given the options it would realistically have to be underground. But metro capacity on the green line would certainly open up places like Rathfarnham to bus rerouting to send most buses eastwards towards a metro interchange. Templeogue maybe not so much.

The red line is also a genuine candidate for underground running from Rialto, allowing a significant increase in frequency as most of the route from there out to the termini is actually already highly segregated with a few pinch points like at the Long Mile Road junction, which could be grade separated.

This would allow significant rerouting of buses to the east of the red line to feed it also.

bk wrote: »

Yes, it could be similar with what will happen on the Green line with people from south of Sandyford changing from Luas to an upgraded Metro at Sandyford.

It would require closely aligned platforms, high frequency and fully integrated ticketing.

Though doing this would be more for Lucan then Blanch. Don't forget Blanch will be getting DARTs on the Maynooth line into Connolly-Tara-Pearse (most likely) and could also connect onto Metrolink at Whitworth Road for O'Connell St/SSG/Airport/Swords. A local bus service for Blanch similar to the Finglas one would make sense to feed Castleknock station.

The infrastructure around Castleknock station wouldn't allow for this.

Nermal wrote: »

Interesting point. Perhaps Blanch/Lucan commuters would be happy converging on Heuston via the Luas and changing to DU if the frequency was high.

This is how it should be.

marno21 wrote: »

I don't think anyone has mentioned Metro West or similar yet either. Such a project would be meritorious as it stops everyone having to go to the city centre to access a different radial element of the city, and would help provide further accessibility to the sprawl created by the M50 which is now creating sufficient journeys to warrant a decent public transport system.

Someone going from Citywest to the Airport could use Metro West rather than clogging the Metro and Luas lines to the city centre to achieve such a journey.

Probably pie in the sky stuff, but id like to see something similar. But linking all the way as far as the dart in Shankill or Killiney.
An orbital route extending from the coast via Sandyford, linking on towards Tallaght and the red line and heading north towards Blanchardstown linking with the heavy rail along the route. Whether it would have to loop all the way around to the airport im not sure depending on other routes.
Like i say, it would probably cost way too much but it would be on a wish list, whether the journey numbers would warrent it would have to be studied. But would certainly open up huge areas of housing to employment areas.

Thats true, forgot about that. Still be nice to get a Sandyford to Tallaght metro/luas type thing.
Really where i was coming from was it would be great to be able to get from greystones to west dublin via public transport without having to go to the city centre

bk wrote: »

Navan Road Parkway so.

Though something to keep in mind, with them spending 2bn on DART expansion and 1bn on BusConnects, infrastructure can and will change.

The narrow road-bridge at Castleknock station just wouldn't allow for bus connections in any meaningful way as they would get caught by congestion.

If Coolmine Level Crossing is moved 200 yards as currently proposed, that would open the possibility of a bus terminus at Coolmine Station. Similarly, some rearrangement at Clonsilla with a new bridge could allow for that.

On a separate issue, there is always the possibility of looking again at bits of Metro West. There is a reservation from the Maynooth line to Blanchardstown Centre from Porterstown, which could always head to Liffey Valley in the other direction.

bk wrote: »

Yes, I'm aware. The point is bridges can be widened, new bridges can be built.

I don't think people have realised yet that the 1bn BusConnects plan is going to involve a lot of infrastructure change, CPO's, road widenings, new bridges, etc. for bus only routes.

If we spend 2bn electrifying the likes of the Maynooth line, then it needs to include new stations and vastly upgraded connectivity to those stations. Otherwise their is little point in this exercise.

Coolmine, Clonsilla and Navan Parkway are all much better options for Bus Connects and upgraded connectivity.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it not be better to construct a new Metro line rather than mess with the Red Line? Would the old street running be abandoned or just reduced frequency?

Surely a new Metro line from the SW to NE would solve a lot of PT issues that would reduce problems on Luas and Dublin Bus.

A new metro line between Red and Green lines will someday have to come, someday.

In the mean time, we have 2 highly segregated tram lines running most of the way in to the canal ring.

Metrolink will allegedly allow the green line to run underground through the city. Red line could be sent underground around Rialto and follow a completely new alignment via the city centre to somewhere sensible (possibly surfacing at Broadstone to run on to Broombridge but there are obviously several options).

The current on street Red line from Rialto to the Point would not be mothballed. It would be integrated into the rest of the on street network in some way, perhaps a Rialto-Heuston-Abbey-Green-Harcourt service would have some merit.

The point anyway would be to allow the vast untapped capacity of the segregated sections of Red line to be exploited as is planned with the Green line (if that ever comes about, but we're in a crayons thread here so what the heck). That can never happen as long as the trams must continue on to city streets with dozens of traffic light junctions and turning back at Rialto is pointless. It's not a destination in itself and has no good connection options.

If nothing was done with the Red line and DU was built, a good proportion of the Red line's patronage would switch to bus->DART (at eg Kishogue)->Stephen's Green (or wherever DU ends up running) because it would be twice as fast because the orbital roads that would feed the Kildare route are well equipped with bus lanes and adding bus priority measures to them would be trivial. The bus along the R136 will be significantly faster than the tram along Abbey Street.

cgcsb wrote: »

With DARTu in place it doesn't make much sense to metro-ise the Red line, Perhpaps it could be operated differently, with very high frequency Tallagh/Saggart to Heuston and a lower frequency Poolbeg to St James's, with most people changing onto DART.

It makes a lot of sense if you start a Red line tunnel at Rialto just before the Red line becomes painfully slow. Send that tunnel somewhere DU won't directly serve, possibly in an arc around through the CC and on to Broadstone, allowing trams to run on to Broombridge. About 75% of the Red line is highly segregated with a handful of pinch points in the suburbs that could be eliminated (as was done at the Red Cow, for example). The stretch from Rialto in though is a lost cause...far too many junctions to increase frequency without negatively affecting too many other road users (not even talking cars here!).

It’s one thing saying there is a budget for something - it’s a whole different kettle of fish whether it actually happens or not.

I wouldn’t take any plans that involve significant CPO activity and/or traffic restrictions, and forcing people to change modes one or more times (such as BusConnects) as gospel by any stretch of the imagination.

That’s where politics comes into the equation.

Sam Russell wrote: »

When the Dart service opened in 1982(?) there were feeder buses, like Sydney Parade to UCD and Blackrock to (?), plus a few more. They disappeared after a while - not sure why.

Probably because a bus from UCD to the City Centre would be faster than a bus from UCD to Sydney Parade and then wait on an infrequent DART to the City Centre. If we have a good 3 or 4 feeder bus routes in the Blanch area feeding a 10 minute frequency Maynooth DART line that gives passengers a dependable way to get from anywhere in the Blanch area to the City Centre in half an hour throughout the day. Currently a 39 bus journey at rush hour will take you more than an hour.

The DART feeders DID have through ticketing with no fare penalty.

bk wrote: »

That is fine, they may well be, I haven't looked at them all in detail, you probably know the area much better then me.

I see though a lot of people on this forum and the C&T forum getting caught up in only thinking in terms of the infrastructure that is currently in place and not realising that an awful lot of change becomes possible with such big budgets.

cgcsb wrote: »

A lot of people are getting hung up on little things like

-oh but there's a bin in the way there
-this route doesn't suit
-there's nowhere for a bus to pull in etc.

Not realizing that €1bn in terms of upgrading a bus based system is a colossus of money.

It is a colossal amount of money, but you have to look at the best ways of spending it. Coolmine and Clonsilla are going to get upgraded railway crossings for electrification. Tying in bus arrangements as part of that expenditure is a way of getting synergy from those upgrades rather than spending an awful lot of money on CPOs for Castleknock.

A new bus-only bridge across the M50 from the back of Navan Road Parkway would open up fast connections to the station from Abbottstown, Corduff, Mulhuddat and Tyrellstown as well as the vast industrial estates.

I read a lot of posters saying dont do this or tha route as theres no demand for a luas/metro link

In my view its a case of build it and demand will come.

What the most sensible (to me anyways) transport system is to have North south line along the coast (dart) a number of cross city lines running NW to SE and NE to SW and an inner & outer ring connecting these lines(out as far as M50 ish).

Obviously try to match these lines to hit where current demand is, and where possble accomodation/work sites may be along those routes

This will make pretty much most of Dublin accessible by metro & a 10-15 min walk

This will also help level out house price increases across the city. Not like the current plan which just hopes to hit exisiting green line and swords

yannakis wrote: »

In my opinion orbital routes should be getting more focus. Why keep moving people through an already crowded city centre?

Something like:
- ...
- Glass Bottle site
- Lansdowne Rd [Irish Rain]
- RDS
- Ranelagh [Metrolink]
- Rathmines
- Kimmage
- Drimnagh [Red Luas]
- Inchicore [Irish Rail]
- Ballyfermot
- Cherry Orchard
- Liffey Valley

Normally you cater for the radial routes first in fairness. Whilst I would personally benefit from say metro West, it should not come before a radial route between red and green lines and metro North and the northern line.

Buses are highly effective at taking care of the axial feeder routes bringing passengers to and from the radial rail routes. If implemented properly I actually doubt the need for any orbital routes of note in Dublin. The city just isn't that big.

An idea I had was Howth-Howth Junction Dart Line is changed to Luas (as it eventually will just be a shuttle). At Howth Junction turns West along the green space, then cut down towards the Santry river (Tonlegee Rd). Then on along the river to the Swords Road. Then either to the Northwood/Dardistown or even the Airport metro stop.

There is a proposal to have an urban Greenway along the Santry River, which would be great too.