New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

Zebra3

Would relocating Busáras to somewhere down near the Point/Port Tunnel be anyway helpful in getting buses out of the city centre?

Pete_Cavan

Personally I don't like the proposal of extending the Red Line across the river, it would require another opening bridge and very expensive for limited benefit. I think it would better to extend north to the port, Eastpoint and link with DART at Clontarf Road, relatively cheap and passenger demand already exists.

The southern end of the city centre Green Line could be used to serve Irishtown. From the bottom of Harcourt Street, continue down Adelaide Road, along the canal and over to Irishtown.

At Sandyford, the other remaining section of Luas could be extended north along the Eastern bypass corridor (which will never be built) and through UCD. Getting past Donnybrook would be extremely difficult but if it can be done, it could either go to Irishtown (linking with DART along the way) or connect back up with the Cross City section.

marno21

I don't think anyone has mentioned Metro West or similar yet either. Such a project would be meritorious as it stops everyone having to go to the city centre to access a different radial element of the city, and would help provide further accessibility to the sprawl created by the M50 which is now creating sufficient journeys to warrant a decent public transport system.

Someone going from Citywest to the Airport could use Metro West rather than clogging the Metro and Luas lines to the city centre to achieve such a journey.

bk wrote: »

Again, not really disagreeing with you as such, but I will say it could be technically possible. Lots of European cities have done it. But they did it by completely banning cars and taxis from their city centers and also removing most buses and giving most of the space over to trams, pedestrians and bikes.

While I'd love to see that happen. Realistically such a move would face tremendous political opposition from a bunch of rich and well connected folks, so very unlikely to actually fly.

And I suspect McDowell knows this perfectly well when he suggested it. Can Metrolink on the promise of building 6 Luas lines instead, knowing perfectly well that when it came to it the 6 Luas lines would face massive opposition and never get built and thus we end up with nothing but a stupid second M50.

I think we're in total agreement here to be honest - I wasn't trying to argue!

I also think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded point above - really is the major issue going forward for any surface based transport system be it bus or tram.

bk

marno21 wrote: »

I think we're in total agreement here to be honest - I wasn't trying to argue!

Oh no argument at all, just explaining for others who happen to read. Sorry if it came across that way.

marno21 wrote: »

I also think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded point above - really is the major issue going forward for any surface based transport system be it bus or tram.

The battle for the resource of limited road space. We don't like inconveniencing other people with change in Ireland, but we are going to have to get use to it, we don't have the space in Dublin any longer to keep everyone equally happy.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Oh no argument at all, just explaining for others who happen to read. Sorry if it came across that way.

Not at all - it was me not trying to come across that way.

bk wrote: »

The battle for the resource of limited road space. We don't like inconveniencing other people with change in Ireland, but we are going to have to get use to it, we don't have the space in Dublin any longer to keep everyone equally happy.

If anything, the fact that the College Green mess has become what it has become is a shocking indictment of the ability to adapt to transport system requirements. Given how that is gone I have little hope for the future.

Kellyconor1982

I would say that we definitely need to have a Metrolink line going from the city centre through either Rathmines or Harold's Cross and then going through the general area of terenure, templeogue (or/and rathfarnham), swinging around Knocklyon and then on to Tallaght.

I would love the original Metrowest line also to be considered. This was a good orbital line going around the outer suburbs and through big population centres.

The rest of the city is quite well served (far from perfect😀)if you throw in Dart lines and luas lines. There is nothing wrong with the Luas lines we have but they are already over capacity. Those extra metro lines would go someway to solving this but extra capacity on darts would be helpful. The plan for the extra luas lines would be good also.

ignorance is strength

bk wrote: »

Oh no argument at all, just explaining for others who happen to read. Sorry if it came across that way.

marno21 wrote: »

Not at all - it was me not trying to come across that way.

And everyone lived happily ever after.

marno21

ignorance is strength wrote: »

And everyone lived happily ever after.

Take a look in the Roads forum and you may redefine "happy ever after"

All we need now is a happy ever after for Metro North

citizen6

I would extend the proposed Finglas Luas to a new SDZ just outside the M50, with the Park+Ride just north of that again. SDZ would incorporate Metro West as well.

Also I would over-deliver on public transport, affordable housing etc in the other cities. Spread the jobs and population away from Dublin per the NPF, or Dublin's transport infrastructure will never catch up.

bk

citizen6 wrote: »

I would extend the proposed Finglas Luas to a new SDZ just outside the M50, with the Park+Ride just north of that again. SDZ would incorporate Metro West as well.

Dublin Industrial Estate should become a SDZ. A 100 acre light industrial site with mostly one or two storey warehouse buildings, could be developed into thousands of apartments and offices.

Prime location, both Broombridge Luas stop and Broombridge rail station right in the middle of it. Whitworth Road station with Metro not even 1km away, an extended Luas to Finglas likely to run right through the center of it.

Would become one of the best connected locations in the city and we are wastefully using it for low quality light industrial use clsoe to the city! Stupid.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Again, not really disagreeing with you as such, but I will say it could be technically possible. Lots of European cities have done it. But they did it by completely banning cars and taxis from their city centers and also removing most buses and giving most of the space over to trams, pedestrians and bikes.

While I'd love to see that happen. Realistically such a move would face tremendous political opposition from a bunch of rich and well connected folks, so very unlikely to actually fly.

And I suspect McDowell knows this perfectly well when he suggested it. Can Metrolink on the promise of building 6 Luas lines instead, knowing perfectly well that when it came to it the 6 Luas lines would face massive opposition and never get built and thus we end up with nothing but a stupid second M50.

If this government turned around tomorrow and said OK Michael we're going to build 8 luas lines criss crossing Dublin as you suggested, and all the car bans and even bus bans that go with that. You can bet your ass he'd be first in line to say those lines should be put underground because of the disruption.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Dublin Industrial Estate should become a SDZ. A 100 acre light industrial site with mostly one or two storey warehouse buildings, could be developed into thousands of apartments and offices.

Prime location, both Broombridge Luas stop and Broombridge rail station right in the middle of it. Whitworth Road station with Metro not even 1km away, an extended Luas to Finglas likely to run right through the center of it.

Would become one of the best connected locations in the city and we are wastefully using it for low quality light industrial use clsoe to the city! Stupid.

Agree, Dublin Industrial estate no longer serves it's original purpose, most of the units are empty or used to house churches and gyms. The unit size is too small for modern warehousing and there is no motorway access.

The site is also at a key PT interchange, with a Park to the North (no shadowing impact from high rise), right on the canal walking/cycle way, it's a short distance to the City Centre and would serve as a walkable 'connection' between the growing Ashtown area and Glasnevin. Ideally it could house 10,000 people or more.

The City's population needs to be refocused on the centre, it's no good having half the metropolitan population living outside the ring road. SDZs like this are the perfect opportunity to do that.

snotboogie

Ballincollig to Mahon

Nermal

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The current lines don't have capacity for branching .

I haven't finished!

Send the red line underground at Fatima, across to at least Stephen's Green and perhaps on to Pearse.

Now half the trams from Tallaght go northside on the existing route, half go southside. Same for those from Blanchardstown.

There might actually be a possibility of a reasonable service to Lucan on the 'southside red' route. The current plan won't compete with the bus.

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Send the red line underground at Fatima, across to at least Stephen's Green and perhaps on to Pearse.

So a Metro line which replicates/replaces the DART Underground route.

I've suggested the same myself before, a Metro route starting deep in the redeveloped docklands area, following roughly the DU route to Hueston and then onto Lucan as a cheaper alternative to DU.

There are a lot of folk who would be very unhappy with that idea, but it does have advantages.

orangerhyme

cgcsb wrote: »

Agree, Dublin Industrial estate no longer serves it's original purpose, most of the units are empty or used to house churches and gyms. The unit size is too small for modern warehousing and there is no motorway access.

The site is also at a key PT interchange, with a Park to the North (no shadowing impact from high rise), right on the canal walking/cycle way, it's a short distance to the City Centre and would serve as a walkable 'connection' between the growing Ashtown area and Glasnevin. Ideally it could house 10,000 people or more.

The City's population needs to be refocused on the centre, it's no good having half the metropolitan population living outside the ring road. SDZs like this are the perfect opportunity to do that.

I agree. People have been saying this for years but nothing's happened.

I'd extend the luas green line from Broombridge across the canal, up Ratoath Rd and out Dunsink Lane.
There's hundreds of acres around Dunsink Lane and also Dublin Industrial Estate.

End of housing crisis, no more crazy commutes.
Have properly planned towns with sports , schools etc

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Send the red line underground at Fatima, across to at least Stephen's Green and perhaps on to Pearse.

Now half the trams from Tallaght go northside on the existing route, half go southside. Same for those from Blanchardstown.

Actually what you could do is spur the Red Line at Jame's St towards Christchurch - Dame St to College Green. Have every second Tallaght tram use this route and the other use the existing red route. That might give you enough capacity for your spur to Blanchardstown. Specially if the Dart Underground tunnel was also built, as it would remove a lot of congestion along the corridor.

Though I do hope that the current proposed redesign of DART Underground includes an extension of it to either Lucan or Blanch. It's current design of just ending at Heuston is a bit of a waste of a good Tunnel Boring Machine. A simplification of DU, but also an extension of it could give us a much more useful project.

murphaph

bk wrote: »

So a Metro line which replicates/replaces the DART Underground route.

I've suggested the same myself before, a Metro route starting deep in the redeveloped docklands area, following roughly the DU route to Hueston and then onto Lucan as a cheaper alternative to DU.

There are a lot of folk who would be very unhappy with that idea, but it does have advantages.

To be honest I'd be strongly against an East West tunnel that wasn't DU.

It's the same reason why it makes sense to upgrade the green line for small beer during the metro North build. You are capitalising on the expensive tunnel part by allowing existing infrastructure to feed it.

Post metro and DU the bus network would fundamentally shift focus from an lar to "nearest metro/DART station".

LXFlyer

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest I'd be strongly against an East West tunnel that wasn't DU.

It's the same reason why it makes sense to upgrade the green line for small beer during the metro North build. You are capitalising on the expensive tunnel part by allowing existing infrastructure to feed it.

Post metro and DU the bus network would fundamentally shift focus from an lar to "nearest metro/DART station".

Except for the south central swathe between the (current) LUAS lines, and the area around the Malahide Road - those areas would still require a major city centre bus operation.

They aren’t inconsequential by any means.

bk

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest I'd be strongly against an East West tunnel that wasn't DU.

It's the same reason why it makes sense to upgrade the green line for small beer during the metro North build. You are capitalising on the expensive tunnel part by allowing existing infrastructure to feed it.

Post metro and DU the bus network would fundamentally shift focus from an lar to "nearest metro/DART station".

Yes, I know, I keep going back and forward on this.

The original DU project seemed in some ways to be an expensive waste given the way that it simply connected Docklands to Hueston and didn't do much else.

Yes, yes, I know all about electrification of the Hazelhatch line, etc. But now we are seeing that most of that can be done anyway via PPT and Whitworth Road without necessary the expense of the DU tunnel. Something I always suspected.

Given the possibilities of the PPT/Whitworth Road, I'd like to see them being a bit more expansive with it.

I suspect with the redesign, any idea of running anything but DARTs through it will be gone, no intercity, no long distance trains like some people imagined. I even won't be surprised if it will end up being limited to just 4 carriage DARTs, which would be about 90m long. A 4 carriage every 5 minutes would have the same capacity as a 8 carriage every 10 minutes. In some ways it will likely end up much the same as a Metro, with similar capacity. Simpler design, smaller station boxes, etc.

But then maybe then would have the money to do something more interesting with it.

Maybe from Docklands, swing into Ringsend/Irishtown with the expected redevelopment of the docks there, then over to Grand Canal Dock, Stephens Green North, Hueston and then out to Blanch or Lucan. You could then have every second train going to Blanch/Lucan and Hazelhatch. Or just have folks from Hazelhatch going to the south city change at Hueston.

Just some ideas.

Nermal

murphaph wrote: »

Post metro and DU the bus network would fundamentally shift focus from an lar to "nearest metro/DART station".

Interesting point. Perhaps Blanch/Lucan commuters would be happy converging on Heuston via the Luas and changing to DU if the frequency was high.

bk

Nermal wrote: »

Interesting point. Perhaps Blanch/Lucan commuters would be happy converging on Heuston via the Luas and changing to DU if the frequency was high.

Yes, it could be similar with what will happen on the Green line with people from south of Sandyford changing from Luas to an upgraded Metro at Sandyford.

It would require closely aligned platforms, high frequency and fully integrated ticketing.

Though doing this would be more for Lucan then Blanch. Don't forget Blanch will be getting DARTs on the Maynooth line into Connolly-Tara-Pearse (most likely) and could also connect onto Metrolink at Whitworth Road for O'Connell St/SSG/Airport/Swords. A local bus service for Blanch similar to the Finglas one would make sense to feed Castleknock station.

murphaph

LXFlyer wrote: »

Except for the south central swathe between the (current) LUAS lines, and the area around the Malahide Road - those areas would still require a major city centre bus operation.

They aren’t inconsequential by any means.

Indeed I agree that that swathe of the city would still need a rail artery to plug the gap and given the options it would realistically have to be underground. But metro capacity on the green line would certainly open up places like Rathfarnham to bus rerouting to send most buses eastwards towards a metro interchange. Templeogue maybe not so much.

The red line is also a genuine candidate for underground running from Rialto, allowing a significant increase in frequency as most of the route from there out to the termini is actually already highly segregated with a few pinch points like at the Long Mile Road junction, which could be grade separated.

This would allow significant rerouting of buses to the east of the red line to feed it also.

Sam Russell

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed I agree that that swathe of the city would still need a rail artery to plug the gap and given the options it would realistically have to be underground. But metro capacity on the green line would certainly open up places like Rathfarnham to bus rerouting to send most buses eastwards towards a metro interchange. Templeogue maybe not so much.

The red line is also a genuine candidate for underground running from Rialto, allowing a significant increase in frequency as most of the route from there out to the termini is actually already highly segregated with a few pinch points like at the Long Mile Road junction, which could be grade separated.

This would allow significant rerouting of buses to the east of the red line to feed it also.

Would it not be better to construct a new Metro line rather than mess with the Red Line? Would the old street running be abandoned or just reduced frequency?

Surely a new Metro line from the SW to NE would solve a lot of PT issues that would reduce problems on Luas and Dublin Bus.

blanch152

bk wrote: »

Yes, it could be similar with what will happen on the Green line with people from south of Sandyford changing from Luas to an upgraded Metro at Sandyford.

It would require closely aligned platforms, high frequency and fully integrated ticketing.

Though doing this would be more for Lucan then Blanch. Don't forget Blanch will be getting DARTs on the Maynooth line into Connolly-Tara-Pearse (most likely) and could also connect onto Metrolink at Whitworth Road for O'Connell St/SSG/Airport/Swords. A local bus service for Blanch similar to the Finglas one would make sense to feed Castleknock station.

The infrastructure around Castleknock station wouldn't allow for this.

bk

blanch152 wrote: »

The infrastructure around Castleknock station wouldn't allow for this.

Navan Road Parkway so.

Though something to keep in mind, with them spending 2bn on DART expansion and 1bn on BusConnects, infrastructure can and will change.

hmmm

Nermal wrote: »

Interesting point. Perhaps Blanch/Lucan commuters would be happy converging on Heuston via the Luas and changing to DU if the frequency was high.

This is how it should be.

cgcsb

With integrated ticketing and a 10 minute DART frequency on the Maynooth line, assuming the Maynooth line serves Tara st., a very frequent, say under 3 minute, set of 3 or 4 routes from Blanch to Pheonix Park station would be a great option for Blanch commuters, they could have a reliable link to the City Centre in under half an hour.

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

I don't think anyone has mentioned Metro West or similar yet either. Such a project would be meritorious as it stops everyone having to go to the city centre to access a different radial element of the city, and would help provide further accessibility to the sprawl created by the M50 which is now creating sufficient journeys to warrant a decent public transport system.

Someone going from Citywest to the Airport could use Metro West rather than clogging the Metro and Luas lines to the city centre to achieve such a journey.

Probably pie in the sky stuff, but id like to see something similar. But linking all the way as far as the dart in Shankill or Killiney.
An orbital route extending from the coast via Sandyford, linking on towards Tallaght and the red line and heading north towards Blanchardstown linking with the heavy rail along the route. Whether it would have to loop all the way around to the airport im not sure depending on other routes.
Like i say, it would probably cost way too much but it would be on a wish list, whether the journey numbers would warrent it would have to be studied. But would certainly open up huge areas of housing to employment areas.

marno21

jvan wrote: »

Probably pie in the sky stuff, but id like to see something similar. But linking all the way as far as the dart in Shankill or Killiney.
An orbital route extending from the coast via Sandyford, linking on towards Tallaght and the red line and heading north towards Blanchardstown linking with the heavy rail along the route. Whether it would have to loop all the way around to the airport im not sure depending on other routes.
Like i say, it would probably cost way too much but it would be on a wish list, whether the journey numbers would warrent it would have to be studied. But would certainly open up huge areas of housing to employment areas.

I think the Luas Green Line - Bray connection will do rather than extending Metro to Killiney which would be horrifically challenging

I think looping around to the airport would be useful as it would complete the ring and open up even more connection possibilities.

Sadly we won't see it for another 30 years or so. No more Metros until after 2035 as per the NTA