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New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

Sam Russell

There appears to be great demand for new Luas/Metro lines now that the cross city line is working (?) and everyone wants one passing through their neighbourhood.

Crayons out and away you go.

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prunudo

Thats true, forgot about that. Still be nice to get a Sandyford to Tallaght metro/luas type thing.
Really where i was coming from was it would be great to be able to get from greystones to west dublin via public transport without having to go to the city centre

cgcsb

With DARTu in place it doesn't make much sense to metro-ise the Red line, Perhpaps it could be operated differently, with very high frequency Tallagh/Saggart to Heuston and a lower frequency Poolbeg to St James's, with most people changing onto DART.

blanch152

bk wrote: »

Navan Road Parkway so.

Though something to keep in mind, with them spending 2bn on DART expansion and 1bn on BusConnects, infrastructure can and will change.

The narrow road-bridge at Castleknock station just wouldn't allow for bus connections in any meaningful way as they would get caught by congestion.

If Coolmine Level Crossing is moved 200 yards as currently proposed, that would open the possibility of a bus terminus at Coolmine Station. Similarly, some rearrangement at Clonsilla with a new bridge could allow for that.

On a separate issue, there is always the possibility of looking again at bits of Metro West. There is a reservation from the Maynooth line to Blanchardstown Centre from Porterstown, which could always head to Liffey Valley in the other direction.

blanch152 wrote: »

The narrow road-bridge at Castleknock station just wouldn't allow for bus connections in any meaningful way as they would get caught by congestion.

Yes, I'm aware. The point is bridges can be widened, new bridges can be built.

I don't think people have realised yet that the 1bn BusConnects plan is going to involve a lot of infrastructure change, CPO's, road widenings, new bridges, etc. for bus only routes.

If we spend 2bn electrifying the likes of the Maynooth line, then it needs to include new stations and vastly upgraded connectivity to those stations. Otherwise their is little point in this exercise.

blanch152

bk wrote: »

Yes, I'm aware. The point is bridges can be widened, new bridges can be built.

I don't think people have realised yet that the 1bn BusConnects plan is going to involve a lot of infrastructure change, CPO's, road widenings, new bridges, etc. for bus only routes.

If we spend 2bn electrifying the likes of the Maynooth line, then it needs to include new stations and vastly upgraded connectivity to those stations. Otherwise their is little point in this exercise.

Coolmine, Clonsilla and Navan Parkway are all much better options for Bus Connects and upgraded connectivity.

blanch152 wrote: »

Coolmine, Clonsilla and Navan Parkway are all much better options for Bus Connects and upgraded connectivity.

That is fine, they may well be, I haven't looked at them all in detail, you probably know the area much better then me.

I see though a lot of people on this forum and the C&T forum getting caught up in only thinking in terms of the infrastructure that is currently in place and not realising that an awful lot of change becomes possible with such big budgets.

murphaph

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it not be better to construct a new Metro line rather than mess with the Red Line? Would the old street running be abandoned or just reduced frequency?

Surely a new Metro line from the SW to NE would solve a lot of PT issues that would reduce problems on Luas and Dublin Bus.

A new metro line between Red and Green lines will someday have to come, someday.

In the mean time, we have 2 highly segregated tram lines running most of the way in to the canal ring.

Metrolink will allegedly allow the green line to run underground through the city. Red line could be sent underground around Rialto and follow a completely new alignment via the city centre to somewhere sensible (possibly surfacing at Broadstone to run on to Broombridge but there are obviously several options).

The current on street Red line from Rialto to the Point would not be mothballed. It would be integrated into the rest of the on street network in some way, perhaps a Rialto-Heuston-Abbey-Green-Harcourt service would have some merit.

The point anyway would be to allow the vast untapped capacity of the segregated sections of Red line to be exploited as is planned with the Green line (if that ever comes about, but we're in a crayons thread here so what the heck). That can never happen as long as the trams must continue on to city streets with dozens of traffic light junctions and turning back at Rialto is pointless. It's not a destination in itself and has no good connection options.

If nothing was done with the Red line and DU was built, a good proportion of the Red line's patronage would switch to bus->DART (at eg Kishogue)->Stephen's Green (or wherever DU ends up running) because it would be twice as fast because the orbital roads that would feed the Kildare route are well equipped with bus lanes and adding bus priority measures to them would be trivial. The bus along the R136 will be significantly faster than the tram along Abbey Street.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

That is fine, they may well be, I haven't looked at them all in detail, you probably know the area much better then me.

I see though a lot of people on this forum and the C&T forum getting caught up in only thinking in terms of the infrastructure that is currently in place and not realising that an awful lot of change becomes possible with such big budgets.

A lot of people are getting hung up on little things like

-oh but there's a bin in the way there
-this route doesn't suit
-there's nowhere for a bus to pull in etc.

Not realizing that €1bn in terms of upgrading a bus based system is a colossus of money.

murphaph

cgcsb wrote: »

With DARTu in place it doesn't make much sense to metro-ise the Red line, Perhpaps it could be operated differently, with very high frequency Tallagh/Saggart to Heuston and a lower frequency Poolbeg to St James's, with most people changing onto DART.

It makes a lot of sense if you start a Red line tunnel at Rialto just before the Red line becomes painfully slow. Send that tunnel somewhere DU won't directly serve, possibly in an arc around through the CC and on to Broadstone, allowing trams to run on to Broombridge. About 75% of the Red line is highly segregated with a handful of pinch points in the suburbs that could be eliminated (as was done at the Red Cow, for example). The stretch from Rialto in though is a lost cause...far too many junctions to increase frequency without negatively affecting too many other road users (not even talking cars here!).

cgcsb

murphaph wrote: »

It makes a lot of sense if you start a Red line tunnel at Rialto just before the Red line becomes painfully slow. Send that tunnel somewhere DU won't directly serve, possibly in an arc around through the CC and on to Broadstone, allowing trams to run on to Broombridge. About 75% of the Red line is highly segregated with a handful of pinch points in the suburbs that could be eliminated (as was done at the Red Cow, for example). The stretch from Rialto in though is a lost cause...far too many junctions to increase frequency without negatively affecting too many other road users (not even talking cars here!).

Yes if the east west tunnel element was sufficiently far from the DARTu route (we don't know what that is yet).

We'll then be left with 2 shorter luas lines, Finglas-Charlemont and Poolbeg-Rialto. And really that's the kind of inner-suburb distances on street systems are suited to. Metro and DART will serve mar far flung destinations with fewer stops. I'd even advocate for more short luas lines crossing the city in the future, assuming by then we have a good metro dart and bus system with the City Centre being mostly car free.

LXFlyer

It’s one thing saying there is a budget for something - it’s a whole different kettle of fish whether it actually happens or not.

I wouldn’t take any plans that involve significant CPO activity and/or traffic restrictions, and forcing people to change modes one or more times (such as BusConnects) as gospel by any stretch of the imagination.

That’s where politics comes into the equation.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s one thing saying there is a budget for something - it’s a while different kettle of fish whether it actually happens or not.

I wouldn’t take any plans that involve significant CPO activity and/or traffic restrictions, and forcing people to change modes one or more times (such as BusConnects) as gospel by any stretch of the imagination.

That’s where politics comes into the equation.

Indeed we won't know anything until bus connects reveals all. This is just speculation. The yet to be revealed DART plan should come first. Once you have metro and DART bedded down buses can be changed to suit whatever rail is put in place.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Indeed we won't know anything until bus connects reveals all. This is just speculation. The yet to be revealed DART plan should come first. Once you have metro and DART bedded down buses can be changed to suit whatever rail is put in place.

When the Dart service opened in 1982(?) there were feeder buses, like Sydney Parade to UCD and Blackrock to (?), plus a few more. They disappeared after a while - not sure why.

If the Metrolink is a success (which is pretty certain), then bus services will change as users change travel pattern to take advantage of the new speedier train service.

roadmaster

The glassbottle site and environs are due to be serviced by a luas line but considering the amount of people that will eventually live down there and the hardship of getting in with a car would it be better served by a metro for capacity issues a lone?

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

When the Dart service opened in 1982(?) there were feeder buses, like Sydney Parade to UCD and Blackrock to (?), plus a few more. They disappeared after a while - not sure why.

Probably because a bus from UCD to the City Centre would be faster than a bus from UCD to Sydney Parade and then wait on an infrequent DART to the City Centre. If we have a good 3 or 4 feeder bus routes in the Blanch area feeding a 10 minute frequency Maynooth DART line that gives passengers a dependable way to get from anywhere in the Blanch area to the City Centre in half an hour throughout the day. Currently a 39 bus journey at rush hour will take you more than an hour.

cgcsb

roadmaster wrote: »

The glassbottle site and environs are due to be serviced by a luas line but considering the amount of people that will eventually live down there and the hardship of getting in with a car would it be better served by a metro for capacity issues a lone?

Luas could offer a good service. The Glass bottle site will accommodate only 8,000 people (hopefully)and they'd be at the end of the line(guaranteed a seat every morning. They go through the IFSC, a low population office district and boom they're in the City Centre, where the majority get off. Currently the red line is very quiet west bound between the point and Busaras. during morning rush hour. Maybe that'll change if more residential development goes into the North Docks, but there isn't a huge amount of land left and Dublin won't allow 8storeys + even in that location.

Sam Russell wrote: »

When the Dart service opened in 1982(?) there were feeder buses, like Sydney Parade to UCD and Blackrock to (?), plus a few more. They disappeared after a while - not sure why.

I think the former bus feeder services suffered from a couple of factors:

- Lack of easy, fully integrated, true end to end ticketing. e.g. Tag on on the bus and only tag off at the end of your journey and pay for the distance travelled, with no penalty.

- Lack of bus infrastructure and priority.

- High frequency of both the bus and the DART/Metro/Tram. There was no point in getting these feeder buses, when you often could end up waiting 30 minutes on a cold, windswept DART platform.

The feeder bus from East Point Business Park is a good example of this working well (though not perfect), it has been highly successful.

It is free, so no problems with ticketing, so it hits the first point well.

It is pretty frequent as it is a straightforward loop with enough capacity.

Infrastructure is where it falls down, it has a dedicated road out of the DART station (one way) where it flies along very fast. But then it hits traffic on Alfie Byrne Road and in particular gets stuck at the two lane bridge into the park at peak times and gets caught in terrible congestion.

It shows that even local routes like these need very good bus infrastructure. Not just core routes. If this route had a bus lane the whole way between East Point Business Park and the DART station (the space is there to do it) then it would be a truly great feeder route.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

I think the former bus feeder services suffered from a couple of factors:

- Lack of easy, fully integrated, true end to end ticketing. e.g. Tag on on the bus and only tag off at the end of your journey and pay for the distance travelled, with no penalty.

I thought the SP to UCD had through ticketing* or was free - not sure which as I never used either Dart of the feeder.

*The bus accepted Dart tickets as valid for travel.

LXFlyer

The DART feeders DID have through ticketing with no fare penalty.

cgcsb

One thing I'd like to see in Dublin is when we have a Hazelhatch-City Centre DART service, there needs to be more stations. I know it's been indicated that there'll be a Heuston West, Cabra and of course Whitworth road.

I would also suggest a Blackhorse Avenue stop would be of use and the gap between Parkwest and Heuston West is too big, another 2 stations perhaps and Le Fanu and at the Inchicore works would make it more of a commuter service, this obviously assumes we have a fourth track in place by then.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.330542,-6.3594001,3699m/data=!3m1!1e3

The result is we'll have a MASSIVE area of Dublin sandwhiched between the M50 to the west, a high frequency dart line to the North and a high frequency luas line to the south. The area would also be bisected by the grand canal and it's cycle way. This part of the city is mostly derelict or in industrial use. It can become an SDZ bigger than any before. With the same density as Poolbeg West that area could accommodate 60,000 additional people

blanch152

bk wrote: »

That is fine, they may well be, I haven't looked at them all in detail, you probably know the area much better then me.

I see though a lot of people on this forum and the C&T forum getting caught up in only thinking in terms of the infrastructure that is currently in place and not realising that an awful lot of change becomes possible with such big budgets.

cgcsb wrote: »

A lot of people are getting hung up on little things like

-oh but there's a bin in the way there
-this route doesn't suit
-there's nowhere for a bus to pull in etc.

Not realizing that €1bn in terms of upgrading a bus based system is a colossus of money.

It is a colossal amount of money, but you have to look at the best ways of spending it. Coolmine and Clonsilla are going to get upgraded railway crossings for electrification. Tying in bus arrangements as part of that expenditure is a way of getting synergy from those upgrades rather than spending an awful lot of money on CPOs for Castleknock.

A new bus-only bridge across the M50 from the back of Navan Road Parkway would open up fast connections to the station from Abbottstown, Corduff, Mulhuddat and Tyrellstown as well as the vast industrial estates.

Sam Russell

There are plans to spend €3 billion on the Metrolink, and a further €2 billion on Dart expansion. That is €5 billion over 10 years - or €500 million per year. Now if the Gov ring-fenced that amount to be spent every year on Dublin public transport infrastructure every year for the next 30 years, we would have a first class PT system in Dublin, provided it was spent wisely.

Once the Metrolink tunnel was finished, the TBM could be put to work on Dart Underground, then on Metrolink 2. Meanwhile, the odd Luas extension could be tackled to improve more local issues. Bus connect issues would be used to complement all of these projects.

Some hope!

citizen6

murphaph wrote: »

It makes a lot of sense if you start a Red line tunnel at Rialto just before the Red line becomes painfully slow. Send that tunnel somewhere DU won't directly serve, possibly in an arc around through the CC and on to Broadstone, allowing trams to run on to Broombridge. About 75% of the Red line is highly segregated with a handful of pinch points in the suburbs that could be eliminated (as was done at the Red Cow, for example). The stretch from Rialto in though is a lost cause...far too many junctions to increase frequency without negatively affecting too many other road users (not even talking cars here!).

An alternative to a red line tunnel from Rialto, would be to run some red line trams up Kylemore Road and terminate at a DU station in Inchicore. You could run more trams from Tallaght/Saggart and separate them before they reach the bottleneck at James'.

This was proposed for the Lucan Luas but if Lucan Luas doesn't use it, or doesn't happen, then it would be great for the red line. Assuming DU happens and has sufficient capacity.

murphaph

citizen6 wrote: »

An alternative to a red line tunnel from Rialto, would be to run some red line trams up Kylemore Road and terminate at a DU station in Inchicore. You could run more trams from Tallaght/Saggart and separate them before they reach the bottleneck at James'.

This was proposed for the Lucan Luas but if Lucan Luas doesn't use it, or doesn't happen, then it would be great for the red line. Assuming DU happens and has sufficient capacity.

A good idea alright. Even as a permanent solution regardless of tunneling from Rialto this idea has great merit.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

So a Metro line which replicates/replaces the DART Underground route.

I've suggested the same myself before, a Metro route starting deep in the redeveloped docklands area, following roughly the DU route to Hueston and then onto Lucan as a cheaper alternative to DU.

There are a lot of folk who would be very unhappy with that idea, but it does have advantages.

Suggested it myself aswell perhaps have the line branch off at Chapelizod and go over a bridge over the Liffey with some trains going to Lucan and others to Blanchardstown. With this routing you could kill two birds with one stone Both DU and Metro West.

I also think a better city centre routing for such a proposal would be Docklands, Connolly, O'Connell Street (for connections with both Metro North and both Luas lines), Christchurch and Hueston. This route would also provide more connections by serving both Connolly and O'Connell Street.

Spanish Eyes

Lucan commuters and east of that corridor are doing fine IMO. It might be because the so called AWFUL bus has a free run via a good bus corridor all the way to Heuston.

Trouble is, after Heuston the bus can be stagnant in rush hour along the North Quay. Doesn't seem to be the same issue going Westwards say in the evenings though.

The Luas is nearly as slow as the bus from Heuston to CC though at the same time.

Anyway as a user of the bus from that Western Corridor I'm happy enough. I don't think Luas will make things any easier here TBH. We are like the 46a ha ha.

No wonder there is nothing suggested for this corridor ever.

daheff

I read a lot of posters saying dont do this or tha route as theres no demand for a luas/metro link

In my view its a case of build it and demand will come.

What the most sensible (to me anyways) transport system is to have North south line along the coast (dart) a number of cross city lines running NW to SE and NE to SW and an inner & outer ring connecting these lines(out as far as M50 ish).

Obviously try to match these lines to hit where current demand is, and where possble accomodation/work sites may be along those routes

This will make pretty much most of Dublin accessible by metro & a 10-15 min walk

This will also help level out house price increases across the city. Not like the current plan which just hopes to hit exisiting green line and swords

yannakis

cgcsb wrote: »

Luas could offer a good service. The Glass bottle site will accommodate only 8,000 people (hopefully)and they'd be at the end of the line(guaranteed a seat every morning. They go through the IFSC, a low population office district and boom they're in the City Centre, where the majority get off. Currently the red line is very quiet west bound between the point and Busaras. during morning rush hour. Maybe that'll change if more residential development goes into the North Docks, but there isn't a huge amount of land left and Dublin won't allow 8storeys + even in that location.

In my opinion orbital routes should be getting more focus. Why keep moving people through an already crowded city centre?

Something like:
- ...
- Glass Bottle site
- Lansdowne Rd [Irish Rain]
- RDS
- Ranelagh [Metrolink]
- Rathmines
- Kimmage
- Drimnagh [Red Luas]
- Inchicore [Irish Rail]
- Ballyfermot
- Cherry Orchard
- Liffey Valley

murphaph

yannakis wrote: »

In my opinion orbital routes should be getting more focus. Why keep moving people through an already crowded city centre?

Something like:
- ...
- Glass Bottle site
- Lansdowne Rd [Irish Rain]
- RDS
- Ranelagh [Metrolink]
- Rathmines
- Kimmage
- Drimnagh [Red Luas]
- Inchicore [Irish Rail]
- Ballyfermot
- Cherry Orchard
- Liffey Valley

Normally you cater for the radial routes first in fairness. Whilst I would personally benefit from say metro West, it should not come before a radial route between red and green lines and metro North and the northern line.

Buses are highly effective at taking care of the axial feeder routes bringing passengers to and from the radial rail routes. If implemented properly I actually doubt the need for any orbital routes of note in Dublin. The city just isn't that big.

cgcsb

murphaph wrote: »

Normally you cater for the radial routes first in fairness. Whilst I would personally benefit from say metro West, it should not come before a radial route between red and green lines and metro North and the northern line.

Buses are highly effective at taking care of the axial feeder routes bringing passengers to and from the radial rail routes. If implemented properly I actually doubt the need for any orbital routes of note in Dublin. The city just isn't that big.

I'd love to see serious orbital bus routes in action in the near future, long before I'd support orbital rail.