Waterford North Quays

Harry Palmr wrote:

North quays now officially owned by Falcon properties.

Easy money, bought relatively cheaply, build some high value property on it, little or no wealth taxes involved such as a lvt(land value tax), happy days!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Easy money, bought relatively cheaply, build some high value property on it, little or no wealth taxes involved such as a lvt(land value tax), happy days!

Unfortunately it’s the way of the world these days if you believe in loosely regulated free market economics/capitalism...at least some ‘money’ has changed hands for the lands.....do we actually know what the ‘agreed price was’.....?

Could you elaborate on how the LVT and wealth tax model you talk about would actually work....?

Harry Palmr wrote: »

North quays now officially owned by Falcon properties.

https://t.co/u7IXwmhAjD?amp=1

Not yet, contracts still need to be signed..

Asdfgh2020 wrote:

Unfortunately it’s the way of the world these days if you believe in loosely regulated free market economics/capitalism...at least some ‘money’ has changed hands for the lands.....do we actually know what the ‘agreed price was’.....?

The reality is, if we continue as is, humanity is screwed, it's clearly obvious that critical elements of society are showing significant distress, this is very evident, politically, economically, socially and environmentally, we can't keep doing this, particularly for younger generations!

Asdfgh2020 wrote:

Could you elaborate on how the LVT and wealth tax model you talk about would actually work....?

I've an extremely vague understanding of lvt, but you 'll find most economic commentators, primarily left leaning, advocate for it, including respected Irish ones. My understanding of it, and I could be completely wrong, taking the north quays as an example, the price of that land is now sky rocketing, and will continue to do so, and more than likely, for the remainder of it's existence. This rapid increase in valuation is effectively untaxed, developers use this rapid increase in valuation to guarantee it's debt obligations, and any other debt obligations, including from other projects globally. And since we currently live in the age of record low rates, receiving credit from creditors, is like receiving free money, as the developers are almost guaranteed massive returns on their investments, virtually tax free, or low rates of tax.

These activities are what is called 'rent seeking', and they truly only benefit a small proportion of society, many of which don't even live here. So effectively, we pick up the tab, while others prosper, and how do we pick up the tab! You 'll find these activities cause feedback loops, particularly in relation to property and land prices in the region, causing them to rise! Then of course, don't forget about taxes such as property tax!

Oh yea, developers try to, and successfully do so, 'derisk', their projects, id argue this is being done by pushing the public infrastructure needed for the project, which is essential, firmly into the public domain. The developer could easily borrow the money required, and handle the actual work required, but it's a little more difficult to engage in rent seeking behaviour from it's activities, but not impossible. One of the most common ways of doing so, is by tolling this infrastructure, which would probably mean tolling rice bridge, and probably other infrastructure. This clearly wouldn't go down too well, so in the view point of a developer, it would make sense to push it towards the state. It also means not having to deal with other complexities such as public sector unions etc.

I personally also believe the developers are also derisking by engaging in other property developments in the region, this land is also rising significantly in value, so when they go to sell these other properties to the market, it's all easy money, as their overall activities cause property and land prices to rise significantly in the region, resulting in the rising tide, where everyone wins, or do they!

Bards wrote: »

And this relates to the North Quays how?

Please stop sabotaging forums with your waffle and start your own thread

god, take me off this planet!

this is how the world of the fire (finance, insurance and real estate) sectors works, this is at the heart of the north quays project!!!!!

again, boards is a public forum, whereby people should be allowed to express their opinions on the subject matters discussed, boards has also facilitated its users with functions to make the experience more pleasurable such as an ignore function!

azimuth17 wrote: »

I'm beginning to form the opinion that you are Asdfgh2020 and are talking to yourself. The written syntax is remarkably similar?

or are we the same person! possible both with similar issues, who knows

Aquos76 wrote: »

@Wanderer78, I actually agree with Bards here, you speaking about humanity is nothing to do with the North Quays project. Some of the points you make in this thread can be attributed to the impact of such a development, but you have a tendency to go further into things which then start to take the thread off topic.

Other users including myself has asked you to create a separate thread on your views, you seem to be very passionate about these views and I respect your point of view, but you then go on the offensive when others disagree with you but telling users to put you on ignore and that they don’t have to read your posts. Well this is the final warning to you, stop trying to detail threads. You are a very good contributor to this forum but you are in danger of having a ban issued if you continue to ignore the instructions to stop derailing threads

lads, please do some reading on this, theres plenty of respected economic commentators writing about this, including irish ones, seriously, or your kids and grand kids are probably gonna get screwed, particularly in relation to their property needs, this is now becoming deeply disturbing! hope your own young fella is doing better

heres an idea, maybe ive a different view point on these matters to most other posters, maybe i have a much deeper interest and understanding, im more than willing to explain where i get my information, all this info is easily accessible on the internets, it includes respected academics, none academics and even some central bank research.

im not trying to derail, these issues are at the heart of the north quays project, theres a reason why major developers have close links with the global financial sector! we are currently entering another credit fueled development boom in the region, we all know what happened the last time!

yes, it is okay for users to have differing views, and yes respect is required for discussions, but has respect being shown towards myself? does respect now mean, users can openly tell other users to take their opinions else where? theres something a little weird about that! im more than willing to engage with others regarding these matters, but respect all round, including from myself, is required to do so. always be wary of the plutocrat's, always! ive had these discussions, offline, with respected local business owners, they regularly agree with me! trust me, this is the heart of the project!

azimuth17 wrote: »

The Economic implcactions (sic) of housing in Waterford thread was started in July 2020 to cover the points being made ad nauseam by Wanderer 78. At least could we beg for brevity? The regurgitation of first year economics 101 etc. Those who are interested, have long read the points made. Those who are not, I suspect simply scroll past.

so, respect means, trying to effectively force other users into other treads, so they cant express their opinions on particular matters, very interesting, very very interesting!

are particular interest groups, such as politically aligned ones, involved!;)

smellyoldboot wrote:

What are we looking at now, 2041 completion date on this yoke?

Has there been announcements of any changes, if not, I'd imagine it's full steam ahead?

Dexpat wrote:

I know that with Covid the future is uncertain, especially in retail, but I'm sure the developers have reconfigured the scheme to take account of that.

Should be fine, the main element of this project Is really about property and land speculation, which is currently going very well, as prices are rising, exactly what was intended. Retail certainly is currently in no man's land, and by looks of it, will radically change post covid, but that won't necessarily disrupt the main objectives of the project. It certainly will be interesting to the city change post construction, elements of it will certainly be amazing

Dexpat wrote: »

Your views on propery and land speculation have been well and frequently articulated in the past so I won't go there!

It certainly will make some difference even before it's up and running. Just to see it happening will give huge confidence boost to the place.

The greenway being extended up along the Quays across the bridge and linking at the site to the New Ross greenway will be a huge factor in the overall success of the scheme and the city centre. It should really allow the city to build up the tourist and leisure sector which it has fallen down on somewhat in the past.

This will add to the vibrancy of the city centre throughout the day and evening rather than just relying on retail which left John Roberts Sq empty after 6pm.

The news and star got the site area a bit wrong 8837ha’s is off by a factor of at least 100.....? Hoarding and a few tower cranes still needed to convince the majority that this is going to happen.....covid is obviously a factor in delays for visible construction activity but can hardly be used as an excuse for not for completing the legalities of sale.....?

Dexpat wrote: »

Your views on propery and land speculation have been well and frequently articulated in the past so I won't go there!

It certainly will make some difference even before it's up and running. Just to see it happening will give huge confidence boost to the place.

The greenway being extended up along the Quays across the bridge and linking at the site to the New Ross greenway will be a huge factor in the overall success of the scheme and the city centre. It should really allow the city to build up the tourist and leisure sector which it has fallen down on somewhat in the past.

This will add to the vibrancy of the city centre throughout the day and evening rather than just relying on retail which left John Roberts Sq empty after 6pm.

any idea where the new ross greenway is at, heard its been cleared now, and almost ready for development?

Dexpat wrote: »

Yeah I know. It will take cranes to convince people and I suppose I don't blame them. Waterford has had lots of potential for years and years without a huge amount to show for it. I was pretty sure that this will happen after the funding for infrastuructue was committed by the government. More waiting though.

Just from reading the N&S article, the reason for delay in completing the lagalities is that the clock starts ticking once the contract is signed. The developers have to complete it within a certain timeframe or face penalties if they don't. The Covid construction stoppage means that they can't start preparatory work, putting them behind already.

However, I'm sure that it wouldn't be a big issue to adjust the contract to reflect that so who knows. I'm sure that Michael Walsh and the council are frustrated by the delay though. Falcon have committed to giving details of commercialisation in May (pre lets and sales etc) That should tell a lot.

i truly believe the public funding should really be used to create a public infrastructure bank, and fund the works from that, its an almost perfect situation for it, i.e. an almost guaranteed method to repay the debt from the bank

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

I’m intrigued by the sound of the ‘public infrastructure bank’ .....could you elaborate on how this model of financing would work...?

ive a vague understanding to be honest, but the most important thing to remember about banking is that banks actually create the money for loans themselves, this is true for all banks, in both the public and private domain. the activity is generally called 'double entry book keeping', its effectively an accountancy activity. when a loan is required, effectively two accounts are created, the credit is simply typed into one side of the balance sheet, and the other side is the return of this money from payments, or servicing of these debts. so effectively the bank simply just creates the money, but the bank must have reserves in order to function, and must always meet these reserve requirements. the critical part of all of this is that a serious attempt must be made to pay back the loan, or face failure of the bank, and possible/probable further contagion, i.e. the accounts must balance in the long run.

in the case of the north quays, i personally think the public money already approved, should really be used to create one of these banks, apparently not cheap to start up. the public transport network, in particular the train network, is gonna be critical for the success of this project, there will be a significant increase in the capacity and usage of the train network from this project, therefore a significant increase of income stream, this increase could be used to service the new debts created from the bank. it seems daft to use debt to create new debt, but a public infrastructure bank would in fact give us back an element of financial sovereignty, a new financial institution of our own, so that we can become somewhat less reliant on the international markets, but it would be critical that this bank be run correctly, as banks, including public ones, can become bad banks very easily and quickly, and we all know where that goes! other euro group countries have public banks as such, so its all legal and above board, we re actually very good at managing our books, contrary to some opinions, we have a good history of balancing our books, and paying our debts, this would mean, we just pay some of our debts back to ourselves. obviously this bank could then be used to fund other national infrastructure projects of our choice, provided we manage it properly.

im sure theres a lot more to it than that, but thats my understanding of it anyway, scotland has recently just created one, so theyre obviously preparing for independence, they ll need it. theres loads of stuff out there on such banks, china's banks are all largely public, then theres others dotted around the world, including in the states. theres been a public banking movement in the states for a few years now, ive been keeping an eye on it, theyre making process, some politicians are starting to take notice, theyre slowly making it a reality for more, as they currently only have two.

Christy Browne wrote: »

You’ve made a grave mistake....

Based on the above explanation of the new type of bank what would or should be the next step......, Waterford council have had €100m gifted to them and lying in a bank account so do they should in theory be able to get the new bank created quite easily..?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

No, the state would own the bank, and no, it's not a gift, it's debt sitting on the national balance sheet, and needs to be carefully managed. We 're stuck in a cycle of over dependence on the international markets, bond markets, and the private sector banks, for our money supply, which is helping to cause the boom bust cycles, we 're walking straight back into another credit fuelled property boom, which is one of the main reasons of rising property prices. Such a bank may help to stop this, or at least reduce the negative effects, but it would need to be carefully managed, apparently Italy's public banks are lethal, badly managed for years. It would be extremely important to not allow politicans within an arses roar of it.

I suspect this wouldn't be very easy to achieve, as you can see, there's virtually no drive in Ireland for serious change towards our financial institutions, the whole davys situation is truly terrifying, nothing has actually changed within our financial institutions, after one of the biggest economic crashes in human history, that's just disturbing. We 're still allowing the international fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), dictate the narrative, and surprise surprise, we 're still experiencing the same outcomes, I.e. rising prices, we reap what we sow!

Interesting.....you obviously work in financial services/economics sector

Wanderer78 wrote: »

god no i dont, sounds like hell to be honest, just personal interest, 08 was a wake up call, but we decided to just roll over and go straight back to sleep. there are interesting ideas out there to try deal with these issues, but as you can see, theyre generally just ridiculed, until they become necessary, we re pretty much at that point now. theres no easy solutions to these issues, as far as i can see, i think all possible solutions will all be problematic in themselves, but defaulting is not an option, its actually dangerous to us all now

One slight difference between now and 2008 is that ‘austerity’ has not been mentioned yet.....government seems to be committed to spending obviously borrowed money.....if you think back to the period 2008 to 2012/13 it was all about deficit reduction/death by 1000 cuts etc....it would have been unthinkable that €100m would have been given to such a project as North Quays

Wanderer78 wrote: »

absolutely, but the idea is actually still bubbling around, if we go back down that road, we ll be in serious trouble, we need to also get over this idea of balancing budgets and running surpluses, its been well proven now that that is just dangerous behavior. you can see that this thinking is still deeply imbedded within our political and societal structures, its not gonna be easy to break it, but thankfully america is going for it, so maybe theres hope for us

One thing for sure is that your fears or opinions posted here about what will or won’t transpire will have zero bearing on what eventually occurs......if the north quays eventually turns into the mega development that a lot of people expect I doubt if the current financial mechanism will alter to what you describe above.?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Absolutely, we currently have very little influence in these outcomes, the fire sectors have become an almost uncontrollable beast, but it has become so serious now, particularly our housing issues, we 're gonna have to do something radical and fast. it's starting to have serious negative effects in every aspect of our economy and society, hitting every generation, but the younger generations the most, this has to stop, something serious has to change. our housing situation is rapidly deteriorating, and element of maturity is urgently required to deal with it, but we 're defaulting to our old ways of trickle down and rising tides, which was always nonsense anyway, it's just worse now than ever, this won't end well for us all.

I assume ‘fire sectors’ is a typo....? If not can you explain?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

thank you, but i obviously strongly disagree, im deeply alarmed by the way these treads are being handled, ive come to the conclusion there is strong interest group interference occurring in them, including politically. i appreciate your modding of the situation, but this is a public forum after all, thank you again

Haha...there is no conspiracy! People are just fed up of threads being continously dragged off topic with the same rhetoric over and over again. You're obviously passionate about this topic and more power to you, so why don't you create a seperate thread and you can talk, discuss and debate about it to your hearts content. I think the reason you won't is because you know you will be talking to yourself in there. But that level of interest should give you a clue to how others feel when they come into a thread to see if there is any news on the subject only to find 10 posts of broad economic theory that has been rehashed over and over again!!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

thank you, but i obviously strongly disagree, im deeply alarmed by the way these treads are being handled, ive come to the conclusion there is strong interest group interference occurring in them, including politically. i appreciate your modding of the situation, but this is a public forum after all, thank you again

There is no conspiracy!!

Because I'm one of the people fed up coming into threads to find you've destroyed it with the same ****e yet again so i'm sure i'm not alone! Why won't you start a new economics thread to post your thoughts and theories?