When will men get liberated from gender roles?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 3:46pm

I do ponder the lack of acceptance for men wearing skirts and other feminine items. It should be more accepted. And at the extreme end, little boys who decide they want to wear a skirt shouldn’t be thought of as wanting to change their gender. No, maybe they just want to wear a skirt. A lot of the current gender identity thinking actually reinforces old-fashioned notions of gender roles.

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 3:48pm

VayNiice wrote: »

Jaysus you sound like you're living in the 1950s. I bet you abuse lads for wearing fashionable clothes too?

You obviously don’t get out of your echo chamber much if you imagine my views were only predominant in the 1950s. I personally don’t abuse anyone for any reason, I simply choose not to entertain them. If one chooses to dress or behave like a clown, they’re inviting people to laugh at them. I wouldn’t though.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 3:51pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I do ponder the lack of acceptance for men wearing skirts and other feminine items. It should be more accepted. And at the extreme end, little boys who decide they want to wear a skirt shouldn’t be thought of as wanting to change their gender. No, maybe they just want to wear a skirt. A lot of the current gender identity thinking actually reinforces old-fashioned notions of gender roles.

The style and type of clothes people wear is the least important part of gender roles in my opinion. But some people will see clothes as a massive step too far.

For me, the clothes other people wear comes under “other people’s business” and is absolutely nothing for me to worry about.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 3:55pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Why does it have to be accepted? Every culture has it's norms, break them at your peril.

I'm sure if I lived in an African tribal society and began acting in a freakish and outlandish way I'd soon be ostracized.

Why oppose other people doing something that causes you and nobody else any harm? You don’t have to support anything. But why oppose it?

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 3:59pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I do ponder the lack of acceptance for men wearing skirts and other feminine items. It should be more accepted. And at the extreme end, little boys who decide they want to wear a skirt shouldn’t be thought of as wanting to change their gender. No, maybe they just want to wear a skirt. A lot of the current gender identity thinking actually reinforces old-fashioned notions of gender roles.

It’s not taken seriously because men look ridiculous in skirts. They know it too, but that doesn’t stop them from campaigning to be taken seriously. But that’s why there’s a lack of acceptance for men who choose to wear women’s clothing. It’s not something that one can change as easily as they can choose their wardrobe, as much as designers in the fashion industry have tried to make it a thing for years now.

mr_fegelien · 08-02-2020 4:00pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Because it disgusts me. If you want to dress as a women then fine but you are not owed my tolerance.

Why does it disgust you more than a woman wearing masculine clothing?

mr_fegelien · 08-02-2020 4:02pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not taken seriously because men look ridiculous in skirts. They know it too, but that doesn’t stop them from campaigning to be taken seriously. But that’s why there’s a lack of acceptance for men who choose to wear women’s clothing. It’s not something that one can change as easily as they can choose their wardrobe, as much as designers in the fashion industry have tried to make it a thing for years now.

Do you think he looks ridiculous?

It's all cultural brainwashing. High heels and skirts were originally worn by men.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:03pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

To answer your question first I'll need you to define what you consider masculine clothing.

I assume your problem is a man in a skirt. Is that because you can see his legs? If so, how do you cope at the pool, matches, fellas out training/jogging, etc?

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 4:05pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Why does it disgust you more than a woman wearing masculine clothing?

Women don’t generally wear masculine clothing though. That’s the mistake you’re making. Women’s trousers even, are designed for women. There are a small minority of women who wear men’s clothing, but they’re usually wearing it for performance purposes, and then they can take off the clothes and put on their normal clothes, the very same as David Williams performing in Little Britain - men wearing women’s clothing is done for comedic effect or performance, no different than any performance which is open to interpretation and subjective opinions of it’s merits.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:08pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

The site of mens' legs does not bother me at all. The site of a man in tights, high heels and a skirt would fill me with disgust.

That would be rather odd and certainly a different thing from a woman wearing trousers designed and cut for a woman.

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 4:14pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Do you think he looks ridiculous?

It's all cultural brainwashing. High heels and skirts were originally worn by men.

That picture is from a completely different time period, so it’s out of context when you attempt to compare it to modern society. That style was acceptable among royalty or nobility in 17th century France. Ordinary Frenchmen would not have been dressing like that. Simply put - he still looks ridiculous even then.

High heels and skirts have never generally been worn by men btw, and it’s your own attempt at historical revisionism which is faulty, not mine in pointing out that your thinking is about three centuries out of date.

lozenges · 08-02-2020 4:14pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Nothing odd about not liking men who dress like women. It's just not tolerated by our society. If you want to dress like a woman then go for it, but I will consider you mentally ill or an attention seeker.

What about Scottish men wearing kilts? Or African men wearing traditional robes. Is that OK by your standards? Why/why not?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 4:16pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Why does it have to be accepted? Every culture has it's norms, break them at your peril.

I'm sure if I lived in an African tribal society and began acting in a freakish and outlandish way I'd soon be ostracized.

Why not? Boy wears skirt - what actually is the problem with that? Women had to stick their necks out when they first started wearing trousers. Now nobody blinks. So that changed. Cultures aren’t static. Men used to be the ones wearing high heels.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:17pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Nothing odd about not liking men who dress like women. It's just not tolerated by our society. If you want to dress like a woman then go for it, but I will consider you mentally ill or an attention seeker.

I mean a non-trans man wearing tights and high-heels would be rather odd. And I couldn't give a wet, scuttery one what you consider me, as we're on the subject.

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 4:21pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Why not? Boy wears skirt - what actually is the problem with that? Women had to stick their necks out when they first started wearing trousers. Now nobody blinks. So that changed. Cultures aren’t static. Men used to be the ones wearing high heels.

No they didn’t. About the same proportion of men wore extended heels as the small minority of men who do nowadays. There were practical purposes for the extended heel at the time which became something of a fashion item among the upper classes in medieval society.

A modern day example would be Tom Cruise wearing high heels to give himself an extra bit of height and someone coming across the footage two centuries later, drawing the conclusion that men must have worn high heels back then.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 4:22pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Cos to me it looks freakish and unnatural. Why am I obliged to tolerate everything?

And yes cultures change, maybe in 500 years it will normal for men to dress like girls but that won't affect us.

Nah, you don’t have to like or tolerate it. Do you think you should be able to express that dislike to the person wearing the offending clothes? If so, why?

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:22pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

But you do care what I think or else you won't be trying to change my beliefs.

Change your beliefs??? Oh Jesus...

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 4:25pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Because it disgusts me. If you want to dress as a women then fine but you are not owed my tolerance.

Oh right. Yeah they talk about snowflakes and I usually roll my eye. But being that upset by someone else’s clothing is pretty weak in my opinion. But I’m not asking you do to anything.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 4:27pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Yes I should. Why should I not be able to express an opinion?

Yes, everyone is very precious about the importance of their opinion these days.

You wouldn’t go up to a man in a skirt and say something. Hey, keyboard warrior! What up?

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:30pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Yes I should. Why should I not be able to express an opinion?

Of course you can express your opinion, but a man wearing a skirt is none of your business and in the real world your opinion might just buy you a shot into the mouth!

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 4:30pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

If you think I'm weak then fine, dosen't bother me. But why do you need my acceptance?

I already said I’m not asking you to do anything. So... I’m not asking for your acceptance.

But I was amused by your post. Where you said it’s fine for other people to wear what they want so it kinda sounds to me that you’re tolerating them unbeknownst to yourself.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:32pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I already said I’m not asking you to do anything. So... I’m not asking for your acceptance.

But I was amused by your post. Where you said it’s fine for t’other peep to wear what they want so it kinda sounds to me that you’re tolerating them unbeknownst to yourself.

I was trying to agree with one of his posts a minute ago and he branched to Fishkill as well, I don't think there's much point.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:37pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

All I've asked is that people explain why it's so important to them that I tolerate men who wear women's clothes.

No one will answer my question.

It isn't important to me at least, but I am curious to know what you intend to do about it if you won't tolerate it - challenge them to umbrella fencing??

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:40pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Exactly. The guy in drag is probably mentally unstable so best to avoid him. Glad we agree.

No, a man wearing a skirt is different from a "guy in drag".

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:42pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

I'm not going to do anything except avoid them. Thankfully our society does not tolerate cross dressing so I don't have to deal with them.

Why do my opinions bother you so much?

Are you marooned in East Limerick in 1958 due to some sort of spacecraft malfunction??

s7ryf3925pivug · 08-02-2020 4:42pm

Brian? wrote: »

You know you can be concerned by multiple things at once?

I come across as a bit weird to some people. Sometimes I view myself negatively. In my case it is because of autistic traits rather than gender-related ones. But I guess it's similar to what other people might feel if they don't naturally fit how they are supposed to be. Not wanting to trivialize other people's experiences, but tbh I just deal with that.

I also have a son and a house. If I were to be told I couldn't live in my house with my son any more - that wouldn't be something I would be able to "just deal with". It would have a vastly, hugely, incomparably greater impact. So my view is that when it comes to gender roles affecting stuff, this is the biggest thing to address.

Of course the people who shout the loudest about it are people who have been affected by it. That means they're often pretty angry and sometimes might have developed resentment towards women. So they don't engender as much sympathy as they might, and might even get dismissed as misogynistic manosphere types. (I'm sure there is a crossover.) Much easier to concern yourself about the harmless seeming effeminate types than angry middle aged men.

Silentcorner · 08-02-2020 4:43pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No that " nobody knows what feminism is any more" is not the problem.with what I said. You're entire post referred to feminism. What men's issues needs is a push to address men's issues. If the solution to men's issues was to whinge, piss and moan about feminism. then men's issues would have been solved in no time.

But the way to actually solve men issues is to campaign to change those men's issues.

You said that many prominent feminists on boards are supporters of issues facing men...that is simply untrue (with the odd exception) , that is what my post was addressing...

As you mention it, it is my belief, that along with a number of vital issues, the continued existence Women's Council of Ireland is an issue facing men in today's society...either abolish it or establish a Men's Council would be my view.

Another issue is the persistent shaming of men/male behaviour by feminists across media and to a lesser extent politics and it's impact on young males in particular...it is grotesque.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 4:43pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Well you challenged my beliefs so something I said has affected you.

And no, I don't want to be around men who dress like women. What's wrong with that?

Having such a strong opinion and being so easily upset by other people's clothes is interesting to me but I'm not worried about it.

I don't mind who you want to be around.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 4:47pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

How do you know I wouldn't? If the guy who sits beside me in work came in one day in a dress do you seriously think I wouldn't say 'man, why are you dressed like that?'.

If they were a friend, possibly. If not, no. I used to work with a guy who frequently wore tight shiny gold cycling shorts to work. This was in a government agency. Nobody said a thing to him. He didn’t breach the dress code so it was nobody’s business.

As jimgoose said, flap your gums if you want but it won’t be well-received, rightfully, because it’s none of your business.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:50pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

You literally just said if I questioned why the man was wearing a skirt he might respond with physical violence. You've proven my point.

As for your point, what's the difference?

I've "proven" sod-all. And the difference is, a man wearing a skirt is a man wearing a skirt, and a man in drag is a man in drag, which is a rather more elaborate affair.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 4:50pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

You said that many prominent feminists on boards are supporters of issues facing men...that is complete garbage, that is what my post was addressing...

As you mention it, it is my belief, that along with a number of vital issues, the continued existence Women's Council of Ireland is an issue facing men in today's society...either abolish it or establish a Men's Council would be my view.

Another issue is the persistent shaming of men/male behaviour by feminists across media and to a lesser extent politics and it's impact on young males in particular...it is grotesque.

Still you only respond in terms of feminism. If only this Whinging about feminism helped men's rights, it would be great. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

The only way men will have a men's council is if men band together to campaign for it. Whinging about feminism is an important pass time for some bloke's on Boards, and it's also completely beside the point of positively campaigning FOR solutions to men's issues.

That's the key. Everything else is just recreational gender wars stuff.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 4:56pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Mate you literally said the guy in drag would punch me in the face merely because I asked him why he was in a skirt!

Unless you're hopelessly naive, you know as well as I do that going up to strangers in the street and asking them why they're dressed as they are could possibly get you a thump. Trying to generate "but... but... he said any man wearing a skirt will attack me" out of that is at best a tad disingenuous.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 5:00pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

I'm not naive at all. I know full well that the guy in drag might be unhinged and that a single question might be enough to provoke him into violence. Hence I avoid men like that.

So you tolerate them.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 5:03pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

I avoid them. Since a single question could set them off that's probably a good idea!

I think you should probably "tolerate" most people, given the way their mode of dress is inclined to bother you.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 5:05pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Why can't we complain about feminism? I have many issues with feminism.

Complain away. Just acknowledge that it’s completely separate from soling men’s issues. And then bang away with the recreational gender wars stuff.

Silentcorner · 08-02-2020 5:05pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Still you only respond in terms of feminism. If only this Whinging about feminism helped men's rights, it would be great. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

The only way men will have a men's council is if men band together to campaign for it. Whinging about feminism is an important pass time for some bloke's on Boards, and it's also completely beside the point of positively campaigning FOR solutions to men's issues.

That's the key. Everything else is just recreational gender wars stuff.

You really don't like men who have an issue with feminism do you...it's like you can't compute how anyone can think differently to you...

This is an online forum, where ordinary folk get to discuss the topic of the day...none of us are changing the world!!!

I believe that feminism is negatively affecting young men and young women for different reasons, you don't...it's fine to disagree.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 5:09pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Why don't you just state your opinions instead of being passive aggressive?

You have a problem with me. That's fine.

Not at all. I'm amused though.

mr_fegelien · 08-02-2020 5:09pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Why does my lack of acceptance affect you so badly? I'm just one guy on the internet.

But your belief represents a sizeable majority in society who think that men look ridiculous in dresses.

If everyone started wearing it, wouldn't it look "normal" and become accepted after 20-30 years?

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 5:11pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Why does my lack of acceptance affect you so badly? I'm just one guy on the internet.

I'm a sophisticated AI written by merry pranksters at MIT specifically to prowl the Internet persuading random fellas to start wearing a skirt. Occam's Razor, and all that.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 5:14pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

And if the same guy came in dressed like a school girl? Or a toddler? What if he came into the office in high heels and a skirt?

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen what shiny gold cycling shorts look like on a person but it’s pretty high up the ridiculousness scale. You’re trying to top it but it’s hard to do. Apart from at Halloween, who of any gender would dress as a schoolgirl or toddler in work? And if he wore high heels and a skirt and didn’t breach the dress code, I’m confident that nobody would say anything. In the same job, as I’ve already detailed before, a man who worked in my company transitioned to a woman and dressed as one. I never heard anything about harassment. I can’t say that nothing was ever said but as the company took a supportive stance, it wouldn’t have been allowed. But based on my experience with gold cycling shorts dude, who I did work with alongside, I suspect nothing was ever said. Believe it or not, most people live by “live and let live”. If it doesn’t encroach on the rights of others, it shouldn’t be a problem.

Talk is cheap. You say you would comment. Easy to claim that on an anonymous message-board.

VayNiice · 08-02-2020 5:15pm

The only reasons I can see for someone having a problem with what another person wears is:

A) they're a narrow minded bigot

Or

They're in denial about their own wants/desires

So which is it?

Thankfully as time moves on and the scars of the Catholic Church are no longer present in the younger generations, we'll see less and less of these types of arseholes.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 5:17pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

You really don't like men who have an issue with feminism do you...it's like you can't compute how anyone can think differently to you...

This is an online forum, where ordinary folk get to discuss the topic of the day...none of us are changing the world!!!

I believe that feminism is negatively affecting young men and young women for different reasons, you don't...it's fine to disagree.

Of course it's fine to disagree. I completely gat that you think differently to me.

The fact is that people are free to whinge about feminism and they're free to campaign to solve the problems that affect men. But don't be foolish enough to think Whinging about feminism IS doing anything to help solve men's issues. That's all.

Recreational Whinging about feminism is a foundation stone of AH. But since we were discussing men's rights and solving men's issues, it's relevant to point out the fact that whining about feminism IS completely beside the point of solving men's issues.

Silentcorner · 08-02-2020 5:21pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course it's fine to disagree. I completely gat that you think differently to me.

The fact is that people are free to whinge about feminism and they're free to campaign to solve the problems that affect men. But don't be foolish enough to think Whinging about feminism IS doing anything to help solve men's issues. That's all.

Recreational Whinging about feminism is a foundation stone of AH. But since we were did using men's rights a d solving men's issues, it's release any to point out the fact that whining about feminism IS completely beside the point of solving men's issues.

You are not making any sense.

What is recreational whinging? Is there professional whingers? Are feminists professional whingers then? Do men need professional whingers do you think?

This is an online forum...people will disagree with you, it's not the end of the world...unless you are insecure or unsure of yourself of course, then it will gnaw at you...

KiKi III · 08-02-2020 5:25pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are not making any sense.

What is recreational whinging? Is there professional whingers? Are feminists professional whingers then? Do men need professional whingers do you think?

This is an online forum...people will disagree with you, it's not the end of the world...unless you are insecure or unsure of yourself of course, then it will gnaw at you...

It’s fairly simple, he’s saying sh1tting on feminism doesn’t improve anything for marginalised men.

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 5:26pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

But your belief represents a sizeable majority in society who think that men look ridiculous in dresses.

If everyone started wearing it, wouldn't it look "normal" and become accepted after 20-30 years?

No, it would become the norm, but that wouldn’t mean a person wouldn’t still look ridiculous. Take your earlier example of a portrait of Louis 14th. Louis is a perfect example at the time of the kind of person who demands acceptance from the majority for their oddball ideas -

It took more than two decades for King Louis XIII and his wife, Anne, to have Louis XIV as their first child. So relieved were the royal couple to have a direct heir to the throne that they christened the boy Louis-Dieudonné, meaning “gift of God.” If the name alone didn’t give Louis XIV an inflated sense of himself, Mazarin also instilled in the boy the notion that kings are divinely chosen. Reflecting that belief, Louis XIV believed any disobedience to his edicts to be sinful, and he adopted the sun as his emblem since France revolved around him as the planets revolved around the sun.

7 Fascinating Facts About King Louis XIV

KiKi III · 08-02-2020 5:28pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

In other words please stop calling out feminists for their bs.

Nope, feel free to call feminists out as you please. Just know that it won’t improve anything for marginalised or underprivileged men.

Silentcorner · 08-02-2020 5:30pm

KiKi III wrote: »

It’s fairly simple, he’s saying sh1tting on feminism doesn’t improve anything for marginalised men.

Actually exposing the dishonesty and infantile nature of today's Feminist movement is very relevant to the lives of ordinary men and women by the way or would you just prefer if we kept our mouths shut.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 08-02-2020 5:31pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Let's just say your workplace is a bit more 'woke' than mine

But why I can't I ask the lad in the dress why came in like that? What's wrong with asking? I would ask.

And if the 50yo creep dressed up for work as a schoolgirl, you surely wouldn't have a problem, right?

It wasn’t woke. It was a pretty staid government agency and this was a decade ago.

Nobody is going to work dressed as a schoolgirl. But if they did, I know I’d not comment because I didn’t comment when somebody wore tight gold cycling shorts. On the weirdness scale, those two things are not that far apart. If someone dresses as a schoolgirl in work, I’d think “Okay, they’re doing themselves no favours there but it’s their life”. Genuinely.

lozenges · 08-02-2020 5:32pm

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Those clothes don't bother me, why would they?

Now here's a question, why do you need my acceptance so badly?

A man in a kilt is wearing a skirt. A man in a robe is wearing a dress.
Why does this not bother you in certain contexts but offend you so gravely in others?
I'm curious.

the_pen_turner · 08-02-2020 5:33pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course it's fine to disagree. I completely gat that you think differently to me.

The fact is that people are free to whinge about feminism and they're free to campaign to solve the problems that affect men. But don't be foolish enough to think Whinging about feminism IS doing anything to help solve men's issues. That's all.

Recreational Whinging about feminism is a foundation stone of AH. But since we were did using men's rights a d solving men's issues, it's release any to point out the fact that whining about feminism IS completely beside the point of solving men's issues.

while i understand your logic m surely that aplies to most discusions online and beteen people in real life. i often talk about issues, personal and political . i know it wont change anything .

that doesnt mean its not worth discussing. surely if anyone reading about mens issues or that most of modern femanism is BS then surely its a good thing

When will men get liberated from gender roles?

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