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2020/21 NBA season + Olympics
Comments
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How are they going to stop Embild, Adebayo or Giannis?
If they do make it to the finals, how are they going to stop Davis? Or another big man from the West should the Lakers somehow falter?
The Harden trade is only worth it if it gives you a legitimate chance at winning a chip. Can we really say that about the Nets considering how shallow the bench is and that their only centre is Deandre Jordan?
That's before you even explore the other pitfalls as Golf said above re Kyrie etc.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Extra cap space is little value if you have zero assets to trade in order to acquire expiring contracts.
They'll largely be resigned to buyouts and have a host of teams to compete with there.
In terms of their beating, imo this trade isn't just poor long term, I question the short term value.
You add a disengaged unfit high usage scorer who's prowess is most evident in the regular season.
The Nets have two of the leagues best scorers over the past 10 years, fire power is not what they're light on.
If the goal is to be an unbelievable scoring team in the regular season, then mission -potentially- accomplished.
Evident things they have to contend with:
Poor defensive backcourt
Harden effort/fitness
KD injury history
Kyrie ongoing issues
Rookie head coach
Zero trade assets
Covid on a very top heavy roster
They're just the obvious ones.
I think they'll struggle to get to the conference finals.
The Heat, Celtics, Sixers & Bucks have the beating of them come playoff time.
You may end up being right although Harden effort/fitness will not be an issue at all . I think Harden will be the most motivated he has ever been. It his last chance to win a ring . It will be great fun though . The league needed it i think .0 -
Sweet.Science wrote: »You may end up being right although Harden effort/fitness will not be an issue at all . I think Harden will be the most motivated he has ever been. It his last chance to win a ring . It will be great fun though . The league needed it i think .
He won't immediately turn it on because he probably can't. That's especially true as players age and Harden is 31. His conditioning has never been an issue but it's never been elite either.
This won't be resolved overnight and may be the difference maker between having an easier route to the playoffs.
He'll get it together and it'll be great fun in a highlight sense. A must watch NBA Season Pass team but I'd argue they're in a weaker position now in terms of winning a title.
A large part of their trade deadline opportunities are gone.
I think the only reason to do this trade is
1. You think it'll motivate Kyrie to come back.
Wait for it.....
2. You think Kyrie is actually done for the season and you now need the scoring.0 -
I kinda thought KD's reason for leaving Golden State was to prove that he could do it without a superteam
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Sweet.Science wrote: »You may end up being right although Harden effort/fitness will not be an issue at all . I think Harden will be the most motivated he has ever been. It his last chance to win a ring . It will be great fun though . The league needed it i think .
Exactly. I'm hearing loads of people mention Harden's attitude. His attitude problems have only been there this year because he's wanted out. He's got what we wanted now so that stuff becomes irrelevant to me.
The playoff failures also are a much more minor issue now he's got a player like Durant to lean on too. One of the best scorers in NBA history. Harden has had to do it himself for the most part in Houston and probably even overachieved some years when he had literally no help. That narrative is definitely a little overdone.
I just don't think you can have the Nets as a loser here. A few days ago you wouldn't have given them a prayer to beat the Lakers in a series. Now you can at least make the argument that they have the firepower to make a series very interesting. Plenty of time to figure things out to peak in the playoffs.0 -
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Osmosis Jones wrote: »I kinda thought KD's reason for leaving Golden State was to prove that he could do it without a superteam
It was also because Draymond was mean to him.... KD is a pretty sensitive dude, best of luck dealing with Kyrie and Harden ..0 -
Morrison J wrote: »Exactly. I'm hearing loads of people mention Harden's attitude. His attitude problems have only been there this year because he's wanted out. He's got what we wanted now so that stuff becomes irrelevant to me.
The playoff failures also are a much more minor issue now he's got a player like Durant to lean on too. One of the best scorers in NBA history. Harden has had to do it himself for the most part in Houston and probably even overachieved some years when he had literally no help. That narrative is definitely a little overdone.
I just don't think you can have the Nets as a loser here. A few days ago you wouldn't have given them a prayer to beat the Lakers in a series. Now you can at least make the argument that they have the firepower to make a series very interesting. Plenty of time to figure things out to peak in the playoffs.
His attitude problems led to a level of disengagement which resulted in him gaining a substantial amount of weight. That lack of conditioning does not become irrelevant overnight. It's going to be very relevant for the next few months.
Playoff failures are a minor issue? I'm a big Harden fan but that's crazy. His inability to generate as many few throw attempts in the playoffs nullifies one of his primary weapons. Furthermore, his inability to defend in the playoffs isn't solved by playing with Durant. He's had players to anchor the defense in the past such as Dwight & Capela but he still can't be hidden.
Of course you can call the Nets losers here, they re-mortgaged the next few years on a player who doesn't solve their shortcomings and hasn't show thus far this season to be the player that he was in the past.
Re-mortgaging your future for the opportunity to potentially compete against the best teams doesn't seem prudent to me.0 -
Why I think Houston undersold:
Because Harden will not be in that shape for long. He's a legit Top 5 player, and the most efficient scorer in modern time - and I say this as someone who doesn't like how he (and Houston) plays. He'll easily be back at 25ppg+ even with KD and Irving.
Harden never misses games - look at how many games he's played over the last 10 seasons. Apart from acting the bollox of course like he was recently.
They got Oladipo in return, who is just back from major injury and free to walk in June if he wants. And 8 pics, at least 2 of which will be very late first rounders. The problem with pics is that evidence suggests that a pic will rarely translate into a Top 10/20 talent.
Houston could have had Ben Simmons (a legit All NBA and top tier 2 way player), instead they get Oladipo, and the always injured Exxum, and Kurucs and some extra balls in the ping pong machine.
There's a saying in the NBA that "whoever gets the best player, wins the trade" but the gap between Harden and everyone else in this trade is huge. Simmons is a lot better than anyone bar Harden in this trade.0 -
ButtersSuki wrote: »Why I think Houston undersold:
Because Harden will not be in that shape for long. He's a legit Top 5 player, and the most efficient scorer in modern time - and I say this as someone who doesn't like how he (and Houston) plays. He'll easily be back at 25ppg+ even with KD and Irving.
Harden never misses games - look at how many games he's played over the last 10 seasons. Apart from acting the bollox of course like he was recently.
They got Oladipo in return, who is just back from major injury and free to walk in June if he wants. And 8 pics, at least 2 of which will be very late first rounders. The problem with pics is that evidence suggests that a pic will rarely translate into a Top 10/20 talent.
Houston could have had Ben Simmons (a legit All NBA and top tier 2 way player), instead they get Oladipo, and the always injured Exxum, and Kurucs and some extra balls in the ping pong machine.
There's a saying in the NBA that "whoever gets the best player, wins the trade" but the gap between Harden and everyone else in this trade is huge. Simmons is a lot better than anyone bar Harden in this trade.
I find that a flawed premise.
Houston didn't sell the 25+ PPG version of James Harden you're referring to though. They sold a far inferior version in a situation where they had limited options. There is a stark difference between MVP Harden in an open market and 2021 Harden in a limited market.
Sure you can make an argument that they made the wrong choice not getting a deal centered on Simmons assuming that was available but neither is an undersell.
I don't think you can't make the argument that they undersold on a Harden which existed before and may exist again the future because that wasn't the version of him that was up for grabs.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »His attitude problems led to a level of disengagement which resulted in him gaining a substantial amount of weight. That lack of conditioning does not become irrelevant overnight. It's going to be very relevant for the next few months.
Playoff failures are a minor issue? I'm a big Harden fan but that's crazy. His inability to generate as many few throw attempts in the playoffs nullifies one of his primary weapons. Furthermore, his inability to defend in the playoffs isn't solved by playing with Durant. He's had players to anchor the defense in the past such as Dwight & Capela but he still can't be hidden.
Of course you can call the Nets losers here, they re-mortgaged the next few years on a player who doesn't solve their shortcomings and hasn't show thus far this season to be the player that he was in the past.
Re-mortgaging your future for the opportunity to potentially compete against the best teams doesn't seem prudent to me.
He'll be in condition come play off time. Regular season doesn't really mean much bar building some chemistry. Home field advantage means next to nothing with no fans so whatever seed they are doesn't mean as much as most years. He'll play his way into condition.
Playing alongside Durant definitely helps defensively. Durant is a great defender especially when you take some offensive responsibility off him. Harden's defense also isn't as bad as advertised. Ask any Rockets fan that and they'll tell you that. There are some horrendous highlights out there which have formed helped form that narrative. He's prone to switching off when not on the ball and getting exposed but in the playoffs and now with less responsibility to pretty much run an offense on his own like he did in Houston I expect his defense to improve. Capela is hardly an elite defender either and Dwight spent a lot of time on the sideline given how bad a fit he was in the offense. Ariza did a lot of donkey work defensively in those years but it was a limited team.
The narrative around Harden seems to have morphed into people saying he should have won a title with the Rockets teams he was on. I disagree with that he probably overachieved if anything given that team was never really that good. The one year they were genuinely in with a shot Chris Paul got injured. Still don't think taking that Warriors team with Durant to a game 7 should be viewed anything remotely close to a choke.
The Nets have got the best player in the deal by an absolute landslide and now have a chance of a title where as before the trade they had little to no chance realistically. I can't view them as a loser personally. Harden's stock is low at the moment but soon enough people will remember just how good he is.0 -
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They'll get the good motivated version of Harden that existed before for the play offs though that's the point. He's only out of shape and showing this bad attitude to bring his trade value down and force a move. He's got those things now so it's a matter of time till we see the Harden of old again. I don't really have any doubts about that.Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »I find that a flawed premise.
Houston didn't sell the 25+ PPG version of James Harden you're referring to though. They sold a far inferior version in a situation where they had limited options. There is a stark difference between MVP Harden in an open market and 2021 Harden in a limited market.
Sure you can make an argument that they made the wrong choice not getting a deal centered on Simmons assuming that was available but neither is an undersell.
I don't think you can't make the argument that they undersold on a Harden which existed before and may exist again the future because that wasn't the version of him that was up for grabs.0 -
Morrison J wrote: »They'll get the good motivated version of Harden that existed before for the play offs though that's the point. He's only out of shape and showing this bad attitude to bring his trade value down and force a move. He's got those things now so it's a matter of time till we see the Harden of old again. I don't really have any doubts about that.
You assume you'll get that Harden, I tend to disagree but that's largely a separate discussion.
The discussion of being undersold though is different. You can't say Houston undersold the Harden that might exist again because they were never going to have that Harden back again to trade.
He obviously did it on purpose as you say but hard to make a case for underselling if that version of him isn't really on the table for them to bargain with.
I remember how good Harden was, as I said, huge fan but his ability in the playoffs which is what he has been traded for is a shadow of what he does in the regular season.
They got a fantastic deal for the Harden they have and imo a very good deal for the Harden you still hope to get.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »You assume you'll get that Harden, I tend to disagree but that's largely a separate discussion.
The discussion of being undersold though is different. You can't say Houston undersold the Harden that might exist again because they were never going to have that Harden back again to trade.
He obviously did it on purpose as you say but hard to make a case for underselling if that version of him isn't really on the table for them to bargain with.
I remember how good Harden was, as I said, huge fan but his ability in the playoffs which is what he has been traded for is a shadow of what he does in the regular season.
They got a fantastic deal for the Harden they have and imo a very good deal for the Harden you still hope to get.
You could go around in circles with that sort of discussion I suppose. The Harden they got still posseses the ability to play at an MVP level in my opinion. I don't think the current version is in any way a fair representation of the player they are getting long term so from a Nets point of view I think they've got decent value.
It's just a classic case of player power winning out. Houston were never really going to get good value for him with the way Harden forced the move. In the circumstances they've done ok. I've a feeling they could've got a better package off of Philadelphia but preferred not to play ball with Morey though.0 -
Morrison J wrote: »You could go around in circles with that sort of discussion I suppose. The Harden they got still posseses the ability to play at an MVP level in my opinion. I don't think the current version is in any way a fair representation of the player they are getting long term so from a Nets point of view I think they've got decent value.
It's just a classic case of player power winning out. Houston were never really going to get good value for him with the way Harden forced the move. In the circumstances they've done ok. I've a feeling they could've got a better package off of Philadelphia but preferred not to play ball with Morey though.
I'm sure we'll be made aware of what was on the table but I don't know if Morey getting one over them played a part.
Apparently one of the sticking points was Tyrese Maxey who Sixers said wasn't in play.0 -
Could be wrong but get the feeling they may have strung him a long a bit and only really would've done a deal if they completely rinsed him.Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »I'm sure we'll be made aware of what was on the table but I don't know if Morey getting one over them played a part.
Apparently one of the sticking points was Tyrese Maxey who Sixers said wasn't in play.
The latest report was the Sixers were sourcing more picks to include in the deal instead of Maxey. I thought at that point that Philadelphia was the destination and the Rockets would accept either the picks with Simmons or Simmons + Maxey. Then suddenly the Brooklyn deal got announced very quickly in a complicated trade with loads of moving parts that didn't have any leaks at all. Not convinced the will to trade with the Sixers was ever really there but I may be wrong.0 -
I lowkey think Cavs made a killing from their late involvement. Basically Jarret Allen for Dante Exum.0
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Wall, Oladipo and Cousins would have been a fine core.....in 20140
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I find this notion that Harden has suddenly become an 'inferior' version of himself hilarious. I would bet a significant amount of money that almost instantaneously you will see Harden turn this around. The whole weight gain thing is a bit of a misnomer anyway. Harden tried his best to get out of Houston 2 months ago, but failed. He started the season unhappy, but resigned to being stuck with the Rockets in the short term. He actually played very well through the first 4 games, averaging 37 points a game. including a game where he dropped 44 and 17 assists. The problem was Houston were terrible (I'm sure Harden was causing difficulties behind the scenes.) Harden after around game 4 or 5 became a complete cancer and essentially quit on the team to escalate the situation. He also in the span of about week gained a significant amount of weight (he was already on the hefty side).
The idea that because Harden piled on a few pounds he is all of a sudden not the same guy any more is just plain stupid. Even playing over weight early on this season he was highly effective before quitting. I should add that I am by no means a fan of Harden's, I find his style of play hard to watch, but he will undoubtedly be highly effective very soon. He's 31, not 35 ffs, and has literally no history of injuries.
All that said I still don't know how all this fits together with the Nets. Harden for all his over indulgent ball handling is an exceptional playmaker. Durant will be fine, he works very well off pin downs, and other Floppy situations. He will make it work. Kyrie... The Athletic are reporting he will be back with the Nets shortly. Theoretically he can make this work, his shooting makes me think it can. If you stagger minutes, when Harden is resting it's KD and Kryie, and when Kyrie's out it's Harden in you can free things up . The issue will of course be Kyrie, and whether he totally buys in to this. Harden will be the man with the ball (mostly). Defense is obviously a huge worry for them also.
In short it could be amazing, or it could be spectacularly bad I feel. If the Nets can get a decent buy out defensive player or two they might have a chance. I'll have to see 20 or 30 games, but I do give them a very good chance of winning the East0 -
I find this notion that Harden has suddenly become an 'inferior' version of himself hilarious. I would bet a significant amount of money that almost instantaneously you will see Harden turn this around. The whole weight gain thing is a bit of a misnomer anyway. Harden tried his best to get out of Houston 2 months ago, but failed. He started the season unhappy, but resigned to being stuck with the Rockets in the short term. He actually played very well through the first 4 games, averaging 37 points a game. including a game where he dropped 44 and 17 assists. The problem was Houston were terrible (I'm sure Harden was causing difficulties behind the scenes.) Harden after around game 4 or 5 became a complete cancer and essentially quit on the team to escalate the situation. He also in the span of about week gained a significant amount of weight (he was already on the hefty side).
The idea that because Harden piled on a few pounds he is all of a sudden not the same guy any more is just plain stupid. Even playing over weight early on this season he was highly effective before quitting. I should add that I am by no means a fan of Harden's, I find his style of play hard to watch, but he will undoubtedly be highly effective very soon. He's 31, not 35 ffs, and has literally no history of injuries.
All that said I still don't know how all this fits together with the Nets. Harden for all his over indulgent ball handling is an exceptional playmaker. Durant will be fine, he works very well off pin downs, and other Floppy situations. He will make it work. Kyrie... The Athletic are reporting he will be back with the Nets shortly. Theoretically he can make this work, his shooting makes me think it can. If you stagger minutes, when Harden is resting it's KD and Kryie, and when Kyrie's out it's Harden in you can free things up . The issue will of course be Kyrie, and whether he totally buys in to this. Harden will be the man with the ball (mostly). Defense is obviously a huge worry for them also.
In short it could be amazing, or it could be spectacularly bad I feel. If the Nets can get a decent buy out defensive player or two they might have a chance. I'll have to see 20 or 30 games, but I do give them a very good chance of winning the East
If you’re going to indirectly reply to the opinions of people you should try leave the condescending attitude and use of words such as stupid at the door.
My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden because the previous version was not the one they were bargaining with.
As I said, MVP Harden in an open market is different than this Harden in a limited market. The package receives need to be weighed more against the latter than the former. That was the crux of my point.
Nobody doubts that the potential exists for him to bounce back but it’s not overnight and will take longer at 31 than 21 just like it would take longer at 35 than 31.
However it’s not simply about weight gain, those players who lead a given lifestyle have a shorter career and the trajectory of that career is often more precipitous
He likely will return to an extremely high level but to me it’s not instantaneous as you suggest nor guaranteed. Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »If you’re going to indirectly reply to the opinions of people you should try leave the condescending attitude and use of words such as stupid at the door.
My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden because the previous version was not the one they were bargaining with.
As I said, MVP Harden in an open market is different than this Harden in a limited market. The package receives need to be weighed more against the latter than the former. That was the crux of my point.
Nobody doubts that the potential exists for him to bounce back but it’s not overnight and will take longer at 31 than 21 just like it would take longer at 35 than 31.
However it’s not simply about weight gain, those players who lead a given lifestyle have a shorter career and the trajectory of that career is often more precipitous
He likely will return to an extremely high level but to me it’s not instantaneous as you suggest nor guaranteed. Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong
You’re almost talking like he’s a has been and he’ll never play well again. It’s a few weeks since he - even overweight - put up 44 and 17.
Bottom line for me is they got pennies back on the dollar for him and some picks, when they had an opportunity to have a young All NBA Level Player to build around. I personally don’t believe they’ll get a player at Simmons’ level from those picks as statistically the odds are against it, but sure, they could. No one will really know for years.0 -
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ButtersSuki wrote: »You’re almost talking like he’s a has been and he’ll never play well again. It’s a few weeks since he - even overweight - put up 44 and 17.
Bottom line for me is they got pennies back on the dollar for him and some picks, when they had an opportunity to have a young All NBA Level Player to build around. I personally don’t believe they’ll get a player at Simmons’ level from those picks as statistically the odds are against it, but sure, they could. No one will really know for years.
I’m not talking like he’s a has been. I’m talking as though he’s not MVP Harden right now and won’t be overnight. The assets they received can’t be weighed against his MVP level ability IMO which is what Buyer and many others are failing to comprehend.
I’m not suggesting they’re weighed against his shape and form in recent weeks but must be considered in light of his age/attitude
He had the Rockets over a barrel and you’re right they got pennies on the dollar if he returns to MVP form but not on current form when you only have 2-3 teams competing for him.
I think he will return to a very high level perhaps not his previous best but it’s not guaranteed and less likely given his lifestyle.
The comment that his return will be effectively instantaneous is ludicrous.
FWIW I agree I’d prefer Simmons too but I still don’t believe the Rockets lost, they just didn’t get as much as they could get. Also there’s a trend in the NBA now whereby draft picks are now being undervalued after being overvalued for so long. Russillo, Simmons & McMullan discussed that yesterday.
You mention statistically they’re odds against to get a player of Simmons standard? Can you share where you read that or how you concluded it?0 -
Anyone think the Nets might try to offload Kyrie now that he'll soon be the third best player on the team and has questionable behaviour and commitment? Try and get some defence in a trade?0
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Anyone think the Nets might try to offload Kyrie now that he'll soon be the third best player on the team and has questionable behaviour and commitment? Try and get some defence in a trade?
I think that’s an interesting idea if they were to have serious issues moving forward but what could you get for Kyrie now?
The Nets are 0-5 when they score <120 points. They have a rookie coach who has acknowledged that he wasn’t brought in as a tactician but as someone who knows Durant & Kyrie. He stated it’s managing ego.
The goal is to live and die by 120+ pts per game with 70-75% coming from Durant/Harden/Kyrie. Pick up whoever is available off waivers and that’s effectively the game plan0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »I’m not talking like he’s a has been. I’m talking as though he’s not MVP Harden right now and won’t be overnight. The assets they received can’t be weighed against his MVP level ability IMO which is what Buyer and many others are failing to comprehend.
I’m not suggesting they’re weighed against his shape and form in recent weeks but must be considered in light of his age/attitude
He had the Rockets over a barrel and you’re right they got pennies on the dollar if he returns to MVP form but not on current form when you only have 2-3 teams competing for him.
I think he will return to a very high level perhaps not his previous best but it’s not guaranteed and less likely given his lifestyle.
The comment that his return will be effectively instantaneous is ludicrous.
FWIW I agree I’d prefer Simmons too but I still don’t believe the Rockets lost, they just didn’t get as much as they could get. Also there’s a trend in the NBA now whereby draft picks are now being undervalued after being overvalued for so long. Russillo, Simmons & McMullan discussed that yesterday.
You mention statistically they’re odds against to get a player of Simmons standard? Can you share where you read that or how you concluded it?
I think Harden returns to his best pretty quickly . I cant wait to watch the Nets now0 -
Sweet.Science wrote: »I think Harden returns to his best pretty quickly . I cant wait to watch the Nets now
Perhaps he will, it's been a long time since a team wasn't built around him though.
I'd be interested to know what people view "returning to his best" actually looks like on this team?
20-25 pounds lighter I assume is a given but what sort of production constitutes his best now.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Perhaps he will, it's been a long time since a team wasn't built around him though.
I'd be interested to know what people view "returning to his best" actually looks like on this team?
20-25 pounds lighter I assume is a given but what sort of production constitutes his best now.
Its obvious his stats wont be as good . So are you saying because his stats will drop his level will drop ? He will still be the same James Harden . He just wont be shooting the ball or handling the ball as much . We all know that0 -
Sweet.Science wrote: »Its obvious his stats wont be as good . So are you saying because his stats will drop his level will drop ? He will still be the same James Harden . He just wont be shooting the ball or handling the ball as much . We all know that
I know that hence why I'm asking the question?
For example, does 25PPG, 10 assists, 50% FG%, 38% from deep and some improved defense constitute success?
I tend to think that does but it's a big change in efficiency, curious how others might measure his value.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »I know that hence why I'm asking the question?
For example, does 25PPG, 10 assists, 50% FG%, 38% from deep and some improved defense constitute success?
I tend to think that does but it's a big change in efficiency, curious how others might measure his value.
I think now i would just constitute a ring as success . KD, KI and JH could/would have better individual stats elsewhere . They want a ring though .0 -
I think Harden can still look like a good/bad trade irrespective of whether they do/don't win a title.Sweet.Science wrote: »I think now i would just constitute a ring as success . KD, KI and JH could/would have better individual stats elsewhere . They want a ring though .
That can't be the only measure of his success, Chris Herring mentioned that their title chances went from 2% to 14% in 538's model which is largest single player jump he has seen.
Caveat being that he felt model underrepresented Nets pre trade chance and corrected too much after the trade.
He feels it likely sits somewhere in-between.0 -
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LeVert seems to be stuck at Houston.
Oladipo would rather go to Miami and the deal is apparently stalling. Neither team has issued any statement regarding Oladipo.0 -
LeVert seems to be stuck at Houston.
Oladipo would rather go to Miami and the deal is apparently stalling. Neither team has issued any statement regarding Oladipo.
Oladipo lives in Miami and has been flirting with them for some time. Can't see who Miami would give up though that would make it attractive for Indiana.0 -
Anyone think the Nets might try to offload Kyrie now that he'll soon be the third best player on the team and has questionable behaviour and commitment? Try and get some defence in a trade?
In theory I'd say they'd be better for it and it may create a better fit of a roster but Jesus if they offloaded kyrie now they'd get a massive backlash from nba players in general0 -
ButtersSuki wrote: »Oladipo lives in Miami and has been flirting with them for some time. Can't see who Miami would give up though that would make it attractive for Indiana.
Herro would surely have to be part of that deal. But are Miami going to give up Herro who at times looks like a potential star?0 -
He looks decent but I think his value has been a tad overstated off the back of their playoff run.Herro would surely have to be part of that deal. But are Miami going to give up Herro who at times looks like a potential star?
If they don't give him up for Oladipo assuming Oladipo is agreeing or has agreed to an extension then I think that would be a mistake.
He's compares relatively favorably to guards in his class outside of Morant but I think Oladipo would do really well under Spoe0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »He looks decent but I think his value has been a tad overstated off the back of their playoff run.
If they don't give him up for Oladipo assuming Oladipo is agreeing or has agreed to an extension then I think that would be a mistake.
He's compares relatively favorably to guards in his class outside of Morant but I think Oladipo would do really well under Spoe
I get the point you're making . But I dont think the Heat are winning anything this year even if they trade for Oladipo . So makes more sense to keep Herro IMO0 -
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Sweet.Science wrote: »I get the point you're making . But I dont think the Heat are winning anything this year even if they trade for Oladipo . So makes more sense to keep Herro IMO
It’s definitely extension depending no matter what. Simmons made the point that Oladipo is playing bad basketball but looks really healthy.
Perhaps a little bit of holding back for his own agenda too0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »If you’re going to indirectly reply to the opinions of people you should try leave the condescending attitude and use of words such as stupid at the door.
My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden because the previous version was not the one they were bargaining with.
As I said, MVP Harden in an open market is different than this Harden in a limited market. The package receives need to be weighed more against the latter than the former. That was the crux of my point.
Nobody doubts that the potential exists for him to bounce back but it’s not overnight and will take longer at 31 than 21 just like it would take longer at 35 than 31.
However it’s not simply about weight gain, those players who lead a given lifestyle have a shorter career and the trajectory of that career is often more precipitous
He likely will return to an extremely high level but to me it’s not instantaneous as you suggest nor guaranteed. Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong
It was not mean to be an indirect reply, it was meant as a reply to your post. I thought I'd clicked reply, so that's my bad. It was pretty clear from my post that I was responding to you I would have thought. Anyway...
Stupid is the word I chose to describe the argument. Maybe ill-conceived would be a better choice of words, apologies. Healthy debate and a difference of opinions is what makes things interesting.
But your assertion that Harden's weight gain and in intentionally below par performances hampered his trade value is not one I agree with. This is not a player whose ability has fallen off a clip, he simply disengaged completely on the court (A pretty shiitty thing to do I might add, I am no Harden apologist and the way he handled the whole thing is arguably worse than the manner in which Vince Carter orchestrated his exit from Toronto to the Nets all those years ago) Harden made it clear that he would only entertain offers from Brooklyn or Philly, other teams made calls (widely reported that Portland, Miami and Denver all expressed interest but were rebuffed.
So you say "My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden " - I say that teams knew Harden quit, and that did not enter the thinking of other teams. 4 terrible performances by Harden to get himself out of Houston does not equate to any kind of regression or drop in standard. Yes he may need a few weeks to play himself back in to shape, but you do know you are getting James Harden the unstoppable scorer and amazing passer.
"Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong"
Your point is that Houston did not get as much as they should is it? I disagree with that also if that is what you are getting at. I actually think by getting that many picks, they control the Nets’ next seven drafts, netting another first from the Cavs ( they have set themselves up very nicely for a rebuild. Best case scenario this Nets team is a contender for 3-4 years, but those last 3 draft picks could well be very high. All those picks are unprotected also which is obviously huge. One year of Oladipo to kick the tyres on him and seeing where he is at before having to offer him a contract is a very good deal imo.
Star players never get traded for full value, that is a truism borne with literally dozens of examples. Kyrie Irving went Boston for Isiah Thomas and Jae Crowder Dwight Howard coming off a few MVP runs and a Finals appearance went to LA for Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington and a few other nobodies,
James Harden(albeit not quite the Harden he became) For Kevin Martin And Jeremy Lamb. Go back in history, Kareem was traded away by Milwaukee to the Lakers for a couple of players who never did anything for the Bucks. I could keep going . I think the Rockets front office got a very very good return.0 -
It was not mean to be an indirect reply, it was meant as a reply to your post. I thought I'd clicked reply, so that's my bad. It was pretty clear from my post that I was responding to you I would have thought. Anyway...
Stupid is the word I chose to describe the argument. Maybe ill-conceived would be a better choice of words, apologies. Healthy debate and a difference of opinions is what makes things interesting and fun around here, so no hard feelings.
But your assertion that Harden's weight gain and in intentionally below par performances hampered his trade value is not one I agree with. This is not a player whose ability has fallen off a cliff, he simply disengaged completely on the court (A pretty shiitty thing to do I might add, I am no Harden apologist and the way he handled the whole thing is arguably worse than the manner in which Vince Carter orchestrated his exit from Toronto to the Nets all those years ago) Harden made it clear that he would only entertain offers from Brooklyn or Philly, other teams made calls (widely reported that Portland, Miami and Denver all expressed interest but were rebuffed.
So you say "My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden " - I say that teams knew Harden quit, and that did not enter the thinking of other teams when judging what Harden could do on a new team. 4 terrible performances by Harden to get himself out of Houston does not equate to any kind of regression or drop in standard. Yes he will need a few weeks to play himself back in to shape, but you do know you are getting James Harden the unstoppable scorer and amazing passer.
"Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong"
Your point is that Houston did not get as much as they should is it? I disagree with that also if that is what you are getting at. I actually think by getting that many picks, they control the Nets’ next seven drafts, netting another first from the Cavs ( they have set themselves up very nicely for a rebuild. Best case scenario this Nets team is a contender for 3-4 years, but those last 3 draft picks could well be very high. All those picks are unprotected also which is obviously huge. One year of Oladipo to kick the tyres on him and seeing where he is at before having to offer him a contract is a very good deal imo.
Star players never get traded for full value, that is a truism that has literally dozens of examples. Kyrie Irving went Boston for Isiah Thomas and Jae Crowder Dwight Howard coming off a few MVP runs and a Finals appearance went to LA for Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington and a few other nobodies,
James Harden(albeit not quite the Harden he became) For Kevin Martin And Jeremy Lamb. Go back in history, Kareem was traded away by Milwaukee to the Lakers for a couple of players who never did anything for the Bucks. I could keep going. I think the Rockets front office got a very very good return.
It will undoubtedly be fun to watch how it all plays out anyway!
Stupid is fine to use if you wish, its use says more about your inability in discourse than it does about my opinion.
Of course his conditioning hampered his trade value as did his attitude. That is not really up for debate, that’s effectively ubiquitously agreed upon by all pundits. The difference in value may be up for debate but it’s not non-zero.
As I said in all likelihood he returns to full form but it’s also not guaranteed and the weight he has gained is not lost overnight while also being more difficult to lose as one ages.
You seem to be confusing yourself, perhaps you didn’t fully read my posts. Given I am clearly questioning Hardens value I find it hard how you could conclude the above, that might be a little bit of an illogical argument. I repeatedly suggested that The Rockets received more than fair value so I guess we agree there.
Your examples of stars for pieces is rather selective, there are a wide range of recent examples where the opposite is true and or looks likely to be true moving into the future. The Nets/Boston trade being a rather salient example.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Stupid is fine to use if you wish, its use says more about your inability in discourse than it does about my opinion.
Of course his conditioning hampered his trade value as did his attitude. That is not really up for debate, that’s effectively ubiquitously agreed upon by all pundits. The difference in value may be up for debate but it’s not non-zero.
As I said in all likelihood he returns to full form but it’s also not guaranteed and the weight he has gained is not lost overnight while also being more difficult to lose as one ages.
You seem to be confusing yourself, perhaps you didn’t fully read my posts. Given I am clearly questioning Hardens value I find it hard how you could conclude the above, that might be a little bit of an illogical argument. I repeatedly suggested that The Rockets received more than fair value so I guess we agree there.
Your examples of stars for pieces is rather selective, there are a wide range of recent examples where the opposite is true and or looks likely to be true moving into the future. The Nets/Boston trade being a rather salient example.
And I contend that his conditioning and attitude did not hamper his trade value.The Rockets did not have a better offer on the table 2 months ago when Harden first made clear his unhappiness. They ended up with 2 very good offers and went with the picks and Oladipo. Time will tell whether Simmons would have been the better trade to make. I think Simmons is a brilliant player, but he is hard to build an entire team around, and I see him more as a very good number two (if he ever develops a consistent jump shot that all changes.) Give me an example of a better trade that you believe the Rockets could have made, with a fully fit and engaged Harden? Because I don't think it's out there.
If you are referring to the trade where the Nets traded away every pick they had for a 37 year old Kevin Garnett and a 36 year old Paul Pierce, that was probably the worst trade deal ever made and is the exception that proves the rule. There are tonnes and tonnes of examples, recent and in the past of star players being traded for way below their value. Look at A.D's trade to the Lakers. In 2017 a prime and pre injury Boogie Cousins went to the Pelicans for a whole bunch of nothing. A year later Kawhi Leonard was traded to Toronto for DeMar DeRozan though undoubtedly the Spurs were in a weak position as Kawhi was holding out from playing with that phantom injury. In 2013 the same year as the Nets Boston trade you referenced,a prime Z-Bo was traded to Memphis for Quentin bloody Richardson. in 2014 Kevin Love joined LeBron and Kyrie in Cleveland. At the time Love was considered a top 15-20 player, and the Cavs gave up almost nothing. The long and the short- It is very hard to get 100 cents on the dollar for your superstar, as usually when you are trading then you are doing it from a position of weakness not strength.
It's championship or bust for the Net and they have essentially two years to accomplish that task. The shelf-life for this core is a shorter than for most superteams that get assembled, which makes me very confident that the Rockets will be very happy with this trade down the line.0 -
And I contend that his conditioning and attitude did not hamper his trade value.The Rockets did not have a better offer on the table 2 months ago when Harden first made clear his unhappiness. They ended up with 2 very good offers and went with the picks and Oladipo. Time will tell whether Simmons would have been the better trade to make. I think Simmons is a brilliant player, but he is hard to build an entire team around, and I see him more as a very good number two (if he ever develops a consistent jump shot that all changes.) Give me an example of a better trade that you believe the Rockets could have made, with a fully fit and engaged Harden? Because I don't think it's out there.
If you are referring to the trade where the Nets traded away every pick they had for a 37 year old Kevin Garnett and a 36 year old Paul Pierce, that was probably the worst trade deal ever made and is the exception that proves the rule. There are tonnes and tonnes of examples, recent and in the past of star players being traded for way below their value. Look at A.D's trade to the Lakers. In 2017 a prime and pre injury Boogie Cousins went to the Pelicans for a whole bunch of nothing. A year later Kawhi Leonard was traded to Toronto for DeMar DeRozan though undoubtedly the Spurs were in a weak position as Kawhi was holding out from playing with that phantom injury. In 2013 the same year as the Nets Boston trade you referenced,a prime Z-Bo was traded to Memphis for Quentin bloody Richardson. in 2014 Kevin Love joined LeBron and Kyrie in Cleveland. At the time Love was considered a top 15-20 player, and the Cavs gave up almost nothing. The long and the short- It is very hard to get 100 cents on the dollar for your superstar, as usually when you are trading one you are doing it from a position of weakness not strength.
It's championship or bust for the Net and they have essentially two years to accomplish that task. The shelf-life for this core is a shorter than for most superteams that get assembled, which makes me very confident that the Rockets will be very happy with this trade down the line.
You’re probably 1 of X who contends that, always worth being a contrarian to some extent I guess.
Again you seem really confused, I simply suggested a fully fit James Harden had the ability to garner a greater return, I never said that would come from another team but it’s a widely held opinion that his attitude/conditioning was a deterrent.
It’s outlandish to think otherwise but that’s your opinion.
Multiple pundits have mentioned that Ainge was put off by his attitude and perhaps is a reason why a Boston offer never surfaced.
I’m not going to trawl through previous trades to make my argument but to suggest the Nets trade is the exception which proves the rule is hyperbole. It’s was a poor trade, one of the worst but certainly not the only one.
Again we seem to agree which is what is confusing for me. I believe the Rockets won the trade. The Nets probably overpaid for Harden but you seem to be content on arguing that both the Nets & Rockets won? I think? Agreed, it’s not always zero sum but your points seem quite juxtaposed and inconsistent.
Succinctly, in order to avoid you becoming confused again, my position is
1. Harden needs to proof he can regain his previous form and I don’t believe that will happen overnight.
2. Hardens conditioning hurt his trade value, perhaps The Rockets can convince the Sixers to part with Simmons & Maxey or Nets give up another asset such as Harris to appease Rockets further
Additionally a 3rd team may come in but his value undoubtedly dropped.
3. In light of the conditioning/attitude of Harden along with sub standard market conditions the Rockets did incredibly well. Either the Nets or Simmons centered Sixers deal was a win.
We’ll agree to disagree or won’t, not really sure but either way it’ll be interesting.0 -
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Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »You’re probably 1 of X who contends that, always worth being a contrarian to some extent I guess.
Again you seem really confused, I simply suggested a fully fit James Harden had the ability to garner a greater return, I never said that would come from another team but it’s a widely held opinion that his attitude/conditioning was a deterrent.
It’s outlandish to think otherwise but that’s your opinion.
Multiple pundits have mentioned that Ainge was put off by his attitude and perhaps is a reason why a Boston offer never surfaced.
I’m not going to trawl through previous trades to make my argument but to suggest the Nets trade is the exception which proves the rule is hyperbole. It’s was a poor trade, one of the worst but certainly not the only one.
Again we seem to agree which is what is confusing for me. I believe the Rockets won the trade. The Nets probably overpaid for Harden but you seem to be content on arguing that both the Nets & Rockets won? I think? Agreed, it’s not always zero sum but your points seem quite juxtaposed and inconsistent.
Succinctly, in order to avoid you becoming confused again, my position is
1. Harden needs to proof he can regain his previous form and I don’t believe that will happen overnight.
2. Hardens conditioning hurt his trade value, perhaps The Rockets can convince the Sixers to part with Simmons & Maxey or Nets give up another asset such as Harris to appease Rockets further
Additionally a 3rd team may come in but his value undoubtedly dropped.
3. In light of the conditioning/attitude of Harden along with sub standard market conditions the Rockets did incredibly well. Either the Nets or Simmons centered Sixers deal was a win.
We’ll agree to disagree or won’t, not really sure but either way it’ll be interesting.
I am not sure why you think I am confused? You say a fully fit Harden could have garnered a greater return. I said above that Harden was fully fit 2 months ago and the Rockets did not get that better offer which you insist was out there. The Celtics were put off Harden for one reason, because Houston wanted Jaylen Brown to be a part of any deal that was made. Brown has come out of the gate in superb form, and I am sure this played into why Ainge felt that he was untradeable. Where are you getting (beside idle gossip on some podcast) that Ainge was put off by is attitude. I'll give you a quote from Ainge today
“We had numerous talks, but the price really wasn’t changing,” Ainge told 98.5 The Sports Hub’s “Toucher & Rich” in the interview. “The price was really high for us, and it was something we really didn’t want to do. I’m not sure there was anybody — even the people within our organization that respected him and wanted him more than me, but I think unanimously, we decided it wasn’t the time for us and it wasn’t the price.” Source
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2021/01/15/celtics-james-harden-trade-package-report
I think Ainge was dead right not to part with Browne by the way. Harden could have made Boston a short-term title contender, but as the Celtics are right now with their young core, they are set to be a title contender for years.
My contention is that the Rockets have done incredibly well to get the haul they did. I think it has the potential to be a trade that works out for the Nets, but the stakes are much higher. They will need to pick up a few buy out guys to round out the squad, and try and shore up that defense. I think they can win the East, but ultimately will fall to the Lakers this year. But one injury to LeBron or AD changes everything. All three of Durant, Irving and Harden possess player options for 2022-23, meaning the Nets only have two guaranteed playoff runs with this trio. So it is truly a high wire move by Sean Marks.
Also you can't give examples of superstars being traded for their value because they aren't their. It literally never happens. Teams end up taking a punt that the picks they get back will turn into something coupled with a few decent role players. It simple does not happen.0 -
I am not sure why you think I am confused? You say a fully fit Harden could have garnered a greater return. I said above that Harden was fully fit 2 months ago and the Rockets did not get that better offer which you insist was out there. The Celtics were put off Harden for one reason, because Houston wanted Jaylen Brown to be a part of any deal that was made. Browne is this year living up to the promise he has shown and has come out of the gate in superb form, and I am sure this played into why Ainge felt that he was untradeable. Where are you getting (beside idle gossip on some podcast) that Ainge was put off by Hardens attitude. I'll give you a quote from Ainge today
“We had numerous talks, but the price really wasn’t changing,” Ainge told 98.5 The Sports Hub’s “Toucher & Rich” in the interview. “The price was really high for us, and it was something we really didn’t want to do. I’m not sure there was anybody — even the people within our organization that respected him and wanted him more than me, but I think unanimously, we decided it wasn’t the time for us and it wasn’t the price.” Source
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2021/01/15/celtics-james-harden-trade-package-report
I think Ainge was dead right not to part with Browne by the way. Harden could have made Boston a short-term title contender, but as the Celtics are right now with their young core, they are set to be a title contender for years.
My contention is that the Rockets have done incredibly well to get the haul they did. I think it has the potential to be a trade that works out for the Nets, but the stakes are much higher. They will need to pick up a few buy out guys to round out the squad, and try and shore up that defense. I think they can win the East, but ultimately will fall to the Lakers this year. But one injury to LeBron or AD changes everything. All three of Durant, Irving and Harden possess player options for 2022-23, meaning the Nets only have two guaranteed playoff runs with this trio. So it is truly a high wire move by Sean Marks.
With all due respect, you're drawing a false equivalence between the toxicity of the situation now and that which existed 2 months ago?
Yes, ESPN senior writer Zach Lowe, The Ringer owner Bill Simmons, Senior NBA writer Jackie McMullan & 538 senior writer Chris Herring, all idle gossip.
I'm sure Ainge will divulge everything in that interview
No relationship exists between value & price though of course :rolleyes:
No need to edit your post, I'll share some examples
The Los Angeles Clippers traded superstar forward Blake Griffin to the Detroit Pistons on Monday in exchange for Tobias Harris, Avery Bradley, Boban Marjanovic, a 2018 protected first-round pick and a 2019 second-round selection.
Thunder receive: Paul George
Pacers receive: Victor Oladipo, Domantas Sabonis
Debatable but two all stars for one.
Historically I agree that superstar trades have favoured those receiving the star but in recent years packages have been more favourable to those getting pieces.
This is likely to occur in the CP3 + picks for Westbrook, arguably, it has already.
Again feel free to check my previous posts, I mention explicitly that it is recent years that are changing the balance between these trades.
I'll add this one for posterity as I feel it'll age well for OKC
Thunder traded George to Clippers in a deal that netted Oklahoma City Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, first-round Clippers picks in 2022, 2024 and 2026, first-round Miami Heat picks in 2021 and 2023, and the right to swap first-round picks in 2023 and 2025.0 -
Potentially a not too distant future NBA finals tonight between Mavs & Bucks.
One takeaway that is worrisome:
I understand Giannis is continuing to build out his shot and as a result, his FT shooting appears to be suffering.
Prior to tonight he was shooting less than 62% from the line which is his career low. Tonight he goes 1/10 in a tight game.
The playoffs last year indicated he doesn't appear to simply be able to turn it on shooting 58% from the line.
I wonder at what point does the focus on technique become counterproductive to his development and success especially in the playoffs.
It's a difficult rope to walk while also having sights on an NBA finals.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Potentially a not too distant future NBA finals tonight between Mavs & Bucks.
One takeaway that is worrisome:
I understand Giannis is continuing to build out his shot and as a result, his FT shooting appears to be suffering.
Prior to tonight he was shooting less than 62% from the line which is his career low. Tonight he goes 1/10 in a tight game.
The playoffs last year indicated he doesn't appear to simply be able to turn it on shooting 58% from the line.
I wonder at what point does the focus on technique become counterproductive to his development and success especially in the playoffs.
It's a difficult rope to walk while also having sights on an NBA finals.
I was watching it also as it happens. What worried me most from a Bucks point of view was their inability to execute decent offensive sets in the last 2 minutes. It's still all iso with very poor ball movement. This is what undid them more than anything else in the playoffs. It's clear Giannis feels huge loyalty towards Budenhozer, but I have my doubts about his ability to put this team in a position to go all the way.
As you say they were fortunate not to get caught tonight with Giannis having such a poor night from the line. Middleton hitting 2 pull up 3s in a row saved them.
Mavs will certainly be contending in the West. Porzingis working his way back, and if he can stay healthy (a huge if) they will be a serious team. Doncic is starting to play himself into better shape also.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Potentially a not too distant future NBA finals tonight between Mavs & Bucks.
One takeaway that is worrisome:
I understand Giannis is continuing to build out his shot and as a result, his FT shooting appears to be suffering.
Prior to tonight he was shooting less than 62% from the line which is his career low. Tonight he goes 1/10 in a tight game.
The playoffs last year indicated he doesn't appear to simply be able to turn it on shooting 58% from the line.
I wonder at what point does the focus on technique become counterproductive to his development and success especially in the playoffs.
It's a difficult rope to walk while also having sights on an NBA finals.
Side note, I remember watching Giannis playing his first or second year at oracle, I had court side tickets through a friend of mine, first and last court side, I remember looking at him close up and being like holy crap but never thought he would turn into this type of player0 -
Carcharodon wrote: »Side note, I remember watching Giannis playing his first or second year at oracle, I had court side tickets through a friend of mine, first and last court side, I remember looking at him close up and being like holy crap but never thought he would turn into this type of player
Are you Reggie Evan's? :eek:
I sometimes think a basketball version of Cristiano Ronaldo, all the raw tools and potential.
He managed to bring so much of it together, testament to his next level work ethic.0 -
I like Bill Simmons mention of LeBron as an outside bet for MVP. Averaging 25/8/8 and may very well ramp it up another level as we move closer to spring time.0
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I like Bill Simmons mention of LeBron as an outside bet for MVP. Averaging 25/8/8 and may very well ramp it up another level as we move closer to spring time.
I actually flirted with Harden @ 40/1 for MVP when I saw Wall back at the start but thought better of it.
For MVP -outside of Russ's first triple double year- you effectively need home court in your conference to win it which is why people being so high on Luka doesn't make much sense to me.
Outside of Russ, I dont even know the last time an MVP has won without home court.
My only bet was Tyrese Maxey @50s for ROY, he's a big outside shout but numbers aren't dissimilar enough from Melo & Halliburton to justify the difference.0 -
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ButtersSuki wrote: »They will not trade Herro for Oladipo, not a chance.
Oladipo is a big upgrade on Herro right now but Herro is only owed 4.5-5m over the next 3 seasons so he certainly represents better value than the 20m or so you'd have to pay Oladipo.
I think we'd see Oladipos production up under Spoe and Herros drop almost anywhere else so some unknown element too.
For me it depends; if they genuinely felt they had real championship aspirations I could get on board with them moving in opposite directions as I think it's a good fit for the Heat.
That said, imo you're right that Herro straight up on his contract for Oladipo on his or what he'd garner isn't a play I can see Miami making.
Miami would need more but Herro just isnt someone I'd take off the table if the right deal featuring Oladipo + player/picks came along.0 -
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