organic farming

Yes, I put a bit of tillage in. It was the opinion of advisors that it would assure getting into organic. From what I heard on my training course, they were expecting all applicants to be accepted.
We were to know in Sept.

endainoz wrote: »

Thanks, will see how I get on. The scheme was only opened for a short time for applications at the end of last year. Priority was given to tillage and dairy guys though so I'm not overly confident of getting in but who knows? Teagasc told me the the scheme is likely to open fully again in early 2021.

There won't be a scheme opened until the new CAP is sorted and it's looking now like it will be 2022 or even early 2023 before its sorted and a scheme opened up.

Did the Trust not tell you to put in some amount of tillage just to get some extra points for the marking scheme?

Water John wrote: »

I think 220+ applied. Not many dairy and tillage from what Iv'e heard. Would be hopeful for all applicants. Many in my training group were sheep farmers.

224 people applied and not all will get in.

blue5000 wrote:

How do organic farmers grow cereals in this country? Min-till AFAIK won't work and ploughing releases CO2. How do you control weeds?

Big focus on soil prep, fertility, rotation and cover crops. No dig systems will be in more usage in the future on a larger scale I reckon.

Have just been told from a fairly reliable source that we will know by next week when department letters go out of were in the scheme or not. So either way, we'll all hopefully know by next week.

Water John wrote: »

See the Green Party alt budget makes a big allocation to organic farming, Creed take note.

They might have to shift that way for next year's budget if whoever gets elected forms a coalition with the greens. Majority of farmers will be against the greens going in though. Or maybe that's just the same angry ejits that have to comment of every farming article going on about carbon tax.

I think the greens made a pretty fatal error last time they were in power by encouraging people to buy diesel cars. Seems like that failed policy won't go away. In fairness when the car manufacturers were lying about the emmisions from diesels yet somehow it's the Green's fault?

I'd agree with you on the wolves thing though, a pretty stupid idea. There are enough things to kills lambs already than to be adding them lads to the mix. I'd also disagree with the compulsory planting. I'd be all for making it voluntary though, assuming farmers would get paid yearly for it.

endainoz wrote: »

I think the greens made a pretty fatal error last time they were in power by encouraging people to buy diesel cars. Seems like that failed policy won't go away. In fairness when the car manufacturers were lying about the emmisions from diesels yet somehow it's the Green's fault?

I'd agree with you on the wolves thing though, a pretty stupid idea. There are enough things to kills lambs already than to be adding them lads to the mix. I'd also disagree with the compulsory planting. I'd be all for making it voluntary though, assuming farmers would get paid yearly for it.

It was fairly common knowledge that Diesel's were dirty at the time. But they decided to look only at the co2 emissions and ignore everything else.

Every country in Europe has higher carbon emissions from electric cars due to how their electricity is produced except France because of the amount of nuclear power they use. That combined with the environmental and human damage caused by Cobalt and lithium mining to produce batteries I wonder are we seeing the same mistake happening all over again?

emaherx wrote: »

It was fairly common knowledge that Diesel's were dirty at the time. But they decided to look only at the co2 emissions and ignore everything else.

Every country in Europe has higher carbon emissions from electric cars due to how their electricity is produced except France because of the amount of nuclear power they use. That combined with the environmental and human damage caused by Cobalt and lithium mining to produce batteries I wonder are we seeing the same mistake happening all over again?

Can the cobalt and lithium from batteries not be recycled?

Water John wrote: »

The batteries have a second life as energy storage and can then be recycled. To any one, be careful picking up these type of landmines laid by pro fossil fuel lobbyists. Not having a go at you Emaherx, we all indeed fell for the diesel scam.

Who ever laid the landmines I don't know.
But there is still a lot of lithium and Cobalt to be mined if we are to replace the near billion internal combustion engines on the road. Lithium poisons the ground water in areas where it is mined and most Cobalt is mined in the Congo under horrendous conditions using slave labour including child labour it's not an issue that should just be ignored to have so called zero emissions cars especially not if producing the required electricity has high emissions anyway. Being able to recycle the batteries is great but what is the cost of producing enough in the first place?

No, news to me that IFA have an Organic Section. Looks like green washing to me.

_Brian wrote:

How will that work if there isn’t a market for the produce. Currently insufficient market for organic beef, maybe someone has more recent figures but from last numbers I saw 60% of organic beef was being killed at commercial rates.

_Brian wrote:

That’s not sustainable

Hadn't heard those figures, you could be right. From what I gather the Organic sales in Drumshambo does very well. And (according to Teagasc) the organic market is increasing a lot in recent years, particularly in export markets. I don't have exact figures though.

As for the 60% killed commercially? I wouldn't be inclined to believe it, a certain percentage not good enough would be killed conventionally for sure, but 60% sounds a bit unrealistic to me.

Any active organic people here have an opinion on this?

Buford T. Justice VI wrote:

Three years ago, the figures were between a quarter and a third of organic beef and lamb were sold into conventional markets.

Yes I remember your post from the start of this thread, a lot more believable than 60%.

Buford T. Justice VI wrote:

People can dress it up any way they like but the demand for organic meat is being successfully supplied, milk and tillage much less so.

That makes sense seen as priority was given to dairy and cereal farmers when they opened the scheme late past year.

I still think it would be worthwhile in the long run for me if I hopefully get in. The top up on the entitlements coupled with the lack of a fertilizer bill makes it worthwhile, along with a 60% grant for certain machinery and modifications to farm buildings etc. The cost of bedding and doing dung samples would be added in of course, but overall it would be better for me.

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Three years ago, the figures were between a quarter and a third of organic beef and lamb were sold into conventional markets.

People can dress it up any way they like but the demand for organic meat is being successfully supplied, milk and tillage much less so.

France alone imports €3-4bln worth of organic food every year...it reeks of lazy marketing that Irish organic beef is dumped into conventional markets.

Organic Cote du bœuf (charolais) aged for 42days is €44/kg in the local supermarket. Organic Cote du bœuf (Angus), aged for 40days is €79/kg.

Organic Irish milk would be tricky enough to market here because it needs to be processed into delicious cheeses etc.

Organic tillage won’t take off until there’s a demand from the organic livestock sector. Ireland’s climate doesn’t lend itself too well for producing organic food for humans...chickpeas, quinoa, maize (cornflakes), soya etc etc.

I’d go organic in a heartbeat but I’m too long in the tooth to take on such a huge investment without an enthusiastic lad/lass behind me.

Water John wrote:

Good Herdsman main market is Germany TMK. The Germans wouldn't have a record of being very discriminating foodies. Our main problem again is probably year round production. Everyone can finish cattle with a little, dear ration, in the back end of the summer. the rest of the year is the problem. This requires a change of attitude and farming practices.

Autumn calves would be a better option? I'm looking to get an Angus bull if I get into the scheme but not overly sure if there would be a decent market for weanlings, I haven't finished cattle before but if I started I'd be growing loads of red clover silage. The price of organic meal is crazy.

Mooooo wrote:

Don't buy the probably healthier part tbh. If going organic you need to know your market, and who they are selling to. Red clover, less fert etc also means more reseeding and in some cases much lower stocking rates also.

A well maintained red clover crop can last up to 7 years. Soil fertility is key for organic, animals are generally more healthy too as it preventative care rather than dosing. Lower stocking rates for sure but I'd argue with your other points.

Good point, but oats to Flahavan's would be my aim and have my own straw.
Not sure of the price this year but was €380/ton last year, 2 ton per acre.

Yeah ended up with whole crop this year as it was set too late. We're learning. Will look at winter oats. Might reseed after crop then.

Mooooo wrote:

7 years would be more often, and if used for silage i heard it was closer to every 5 years. Majority of farmers try and use as much preventative care as possible and with amr regs coming in most will have little choice, not to mention the cost of treatment these days. Prob spend close to 20 euro a cow on vaccines here. Fert and sprays would be the biggest difference between organic and conventional in terms of feed for stock I would have thought. Weed management can be a larger issue unless on the driest of ground when it comes to grazing in the shoulders or inclement weather. Not knocking organic once there is a market for it but claims it's inherently healthier or better than conventional aren't always the case

You make good points for sure, but if you can grow a crop that you have to resow every 5 or so years with up to 70% DMD instead of buying meal, it's still a hell of a lot cheaper.

Agreed on weed management too, topping of course is encouraged but yeah has to be on suitable ground.

Panch18 wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

I wouldn't bank on red clover more than 4 years, from what I've read. I intend to rotate that with a bit of tillage. Five paddocks moving forward one each year. Under or oversowing one with clover/grass. Two oats, three red clover. Any advice well appreciated.

I'm not in organic so far from an expert, but i read a bit about it and from what i have seen you have a good rotation there

You could try combi crop in the rotation as well - great feed for your own cattle and easy to sell

Edit: just to say wouldn't you be better with the oats after the red clover?

That's what we do here 2 years red clover followed by 3 years oats hopefully, the theory is that the nitrogen from the clover will power on the following crops. I have only 4 years of the rotation done here so I'm toying with the idea of combi crop for the final year under sown back to the red clover and wrap the straw for feeding but I'm not sure if I'm brave enough for that.

Water John wrote: »

From my reading, I was afraid of 3 years oats, from a disease POV.
Three years for each crop would make the rotation very simple. Just reseed oats the third year.
The reason I oversowed, that is, sat the clover when the oats was well up, instead of undersowing was to give the oats a chance, could be wrong.

Anyone have experience with winter oats?

Don't be afraid to be creative. Lots of other options, you could go winter oats+ vetch, crimson clover cover crop etc

Water John wrote: »

Good point, but oats to Flahavan's would be my aim and have my own straw.
Not sure of the price this year but was €380/ton last year, 2 ton per acre.

Yeah ended up with whole crop this year as it was set too late. We're learning. Will look at winter oats. Might reseed after crop then.

I’ve a few friends that are organic cereal farmers, in fact I’m going harvesting sunflowers for one of them this afternoon. He’s getting brilliant results with planting Lucerne as a base crop. Plant the cereal crop directly into the lucerne, and after the harvest graze/mow the lucerne, then DD the cereal back into it again.
The lucerne aids weed suppression and won’t compete with the cereal crop.

His milling wheat yielded 4.7t/ha @ €480/t. Beats the crap out of conventional wheat.