Home heating automation

Louisemurp wrote: »

Its a new rapid recovery stainless steel one, well insulated.

If it's one of the ones that has a metal external casing it likely has a pocket for a thermostat probe to be placed inside to pick up the temp.

Our one calls it an "aquastat pocket" and it's used to report the temp back to the control unit.

However I have noticed a down side to these, in that they wouldn't be able to detect the immersion heating the water only the boiler due to the immersion coil is placed higher than the pocket on ours.

We got a quote recently for full heat genius system around 3.5K after grant. That was for about 15 rads and the hot water control. On a gas system I think it is hard to make the economics work on some of the quotes around. Possibly a different equation with oil.

no. But i understood in particularly the water setup would require addition of things like expansion vessel, which some didn't quote.

It seemed excessive, but electric Ireland's quote for the honeywell setup was close to 3 from recollection too. In any event, here i am looking at TADOs and their sale!

poker--addict wrote: »

We got a quote recently for full heat genius system around 3.5K after grant. That was for about 15 rads and the hot water control. On a gas system I think it is hard to make the economics work on some of the quotes around. Possibly a different equation with oil.

Were you adding a stove to your existing system? You mention an additional expansion tank. If the gas circulation system is not already sealed, it would not need to be sealed retrospectively. If the gas boiler circulation is vented, then both stove and boiler can be combined with a mixing manifold or equaliser tank. The heat genie is just a heat exchanger to transfer heat from a vented circulation to a sealed circulation system, plus it has an extra heat exchange circuit to drain off hot flow in the event of stove overheat. See their diagram for vented stove to sealed gas. It's design purpose is to facilitate the introduction of a SF stove into a controlled boiler heating system, gas/oil vented/unvented with the minimum of charges to the existing system. It does not require replacement of the HW cylinder, as it precludes gravity feed of HW from the stove. As there is no gravity heat sink, rad or cylinder coil, in the event if power failure with a burning stove the only method of heat dissapation is via the thermal valve which pours hot water down a drain. If your current gas system is unvented, then you will need a heat exchanger of some sort to combine both circulation systems. If the gas circulation system is vented (you mention some quotes which include an expansion chamber, indicating conversion to unvented circulation), then both stove and gas can share the same circulation, you can use a manifold tank to combine the flows, and its possible to connect this manifold in a manner that would permit gravity heat sinking to the hw cylinder. The heat genie can save on floor excavations required for gravity flow to same floor HW cylinders, but there will still be substantial pipework to combine the systems, in particular the safety stove overheat drain in the event of a power cut while the stove is burning.
It might be simpler and more economical to just install a smaller non boiler stove, what with the push against solid fuel burning. it's currently barely economical to heat from stove coal/ wood compared to gas and actually more expensive than oil. Unless you have a cheap supply of timber, or perhaps you are using lpg and not mains gas, three grand sounds like a lot of money for the occasional boost a modest stove would give to a 15 rad system. A SF stove that could actually heat 15 rads unaided would need a barrow of fuel nightly, and a bucket for the ashes the next day.

https://www.systemlink.ie/heat-genie.html

poker--addict wrote: »

I thought you were joking about the price with reference to a stove :-) no stove. Gas boiler (not a combi), you may be right though as there was also something about auto by pass and vents.

Ah, I'm on the wrong track altogether. I reread your previous posts, I misread Heat Genius as Heat Genie, two completely different things. Heat genius is a hub and TRV system. similar to Tado, Drayton. Self install for 15 rads and HW control running around £1050 for the parts, about €1250. Do you need to get TRV valves fitted to all the rads? You must. There's no plumbing required otherwise, so €3500 plus grant leaves a lot of change for what is a DIYable install. Bypass not necessary as the boiler won't fire if all the rads are off, but it wouldn't harm to leave one rad or a towel rail open.

poker--addict wrote: »

I am thinking to leave a utility or unused en-suite rad open as having the towel rails under control may be useful, however also need to check if it’s possible to add TADO to the rails. I will have to change all the rad fittings. Do you think it would fall under the grant?

The job as a whole would, as multizoning control. The grant is still €700 AFAIK, so the quote you have is €4200 gross, leaving about €2700 for installation, assuming that materials runs to about, €1500. €2700 would swap a lot of rad valves. You can see why lads like Clareman above done it himself. What would be an honest price of labour for swapping out rad valves by 15, leaving aside the valve cost of €6-7 each. After that it's all techie fitting of TRV heads, configuration, and wiring a controller to fire boiler/open HW valve.

Clareman wrote: »

All this speak of grants has me curious, I picked up 9 TRVs and the relay not too long ago, would I be able to claim anything back for them? Energia installed a Netamo for me years ago so I assumed they used the grant on that.

As long as it's fitted by someone registered with the seai, you can source the components yourself. Shouldn't be any issue unless the grant has already been claimed. Though the grant can only be claimed if a BER assessment was done afterwards, so if Energia supplied one after the fitting very likely it was claimed.

I purchased the honeywell controller and TRVs myself and got a plumber & electrician to fit them. Though I had the plumber and electrician in to do other work around the heating system and moving some electrics around, so it wasn't just a case that they were just fitting the system for me.

Another wee Drayton Wiser question...

I have 3 rads in the hallway. All 3 are using wiser a rad TRVs and all 3 are located in the "Hallway" room in the app.

Currently 1 is piping, 1 is hot and one is stone cold. They're all in the same heating zone.

Does each rad operate independently for related to the temperature at its own location? Or should the app take an average of the 3 and turn on all 3 til the average hits target?

Or would I need a room stat to act as Master for that to work?

poker--addict wrote: »

is there not an option for you to dictate the master?

Not that I can see.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Another wee Drayton Wiser question...

I have 3 rads in the hallway. All 3 are using wiser a rad TRVs and all 3 are located in the "Hallway" room in the app.

Currently 1 is piping, 1 is hot and one is stone cold. They're all in the same heating zone.

Does each rad operate independently for related to the temperature at its own location? Or should the app take an average of the 3 and turn on all 3 til the average hits target?

Or would I need a room stat to act as Master for that to work?

That's strange, what does the temperature of the room say? Can you see the individual rad temps? We have a seperate temp sensor in any rooms with multiple rads (just cause they came with the kit)

DrPhilG wrote: »

Another wee Drayton Wiser question...

I have 3 rads in the hallway. All 3 are using wiser a rad TRVs and all 3 are located in the "Hallway" room in the app.

Currently 1 is piping, 1 is hot and one is stone cold. They're all in the same heating zone.

Does each rad operate independently for related to the temperature at its own location? Or should the app take an average of the 3 and turn on all 3 til the average hits target?

Or would I need a room stat to act as Master for that to work?

Even with a room stat as master, I think all 3 TRV will operate to the room schedule, but variations in the temperature gradient of the hall will likely cause one stat to close first, then it might not open at all if heat from the other rads kick in because their sensors are reading a cooler local temperature. The real question should be, is the hall air temperature correct at the location of the rad which never comes on? If that area is cold yet the rad is off, then you have a problem. Ifits fine, then its just that the other rads are raising its sensor temperature past the set temperature.
You could experiment, create rooms 'Hall1, 2 and 3' a tad in each. Three identical schedules,then you can read the app temperature for each, see which one is doing all the heavy lifting, maybe use the locks holed valves to retard it balance the heat load.

deezell wrote: »

If you buy a Tado, during the registration process you are given the option of self install or professional install. I'd like to know what options are presented with the professional install. I'd imagine a straight replacement install for an existing stat should be a quick job for an electrician/plumber. How much they charge is another story, but it cant be any more than changing a light switch. Different story if you expect them to deal with the registration, pairing, app installation etc. In the case of the other stats, I'm not sure how much work the installers do to get your app up and running etc. The nest can be installed and running locally without the app connected, or even the wifi back to the nest connected. Does the installer do all this? connect to your router, open an account for you, install the app on your phone etc?

deezell - old post of yours from 2017, but I noticed you were looking at professional install of tado. wondering if you went ahead with that option?
I am looking for the same in Dublin and 1) only 3 heating plumbing services have anything about smart heating on their website. 2) 2 out of 3 said they don't do tado. 3rd is yet to get back.
so, I am searching for tado professional installers.
and given the great deals going on with tado right now, thought the earlier I get get someone to confirm what I should buy, the more likely I can benefit from the deals on tado and amazon.

also, I talked to tado and they don't do professional installs anymore, so they did not offer any recommendations for who can do a professional install.

Clareman wrote: »

There's nothing to the install, the relay can be done by an electrician or by yourself, on the radiators if you have TRV's on your radiators you can just put on Tado and you're good to go. I'd recommend if you looking for an installer that instead of asking for a smart installer, ask for someone to change the relay and/or valves.

Thanks Clareman.
to do that ...
how would I get to know whether I should go with the wired or wireless module of tado? and whether I need the extension kit of tado for heating water?
as I understand, if I know whether tado can work in that house + these questions, then your suggestions is to go for a normal plumbing heating guy and ask to change the relay and valves, right?
thanks again

Clareman wrote: »

Do you have separate zones and/or heating controls? Does your heating already have a wired relay? My heating didn't so I just got the main relay and the TRVs.

it can heat water and house separately apparently. how would I figure out the wired relay aspect? it is just the whole house as one heating unit right now so I wanted to change it to multi-zone using tado TRVs.

side confusion - i noticed that dryser wise and netatmo also seem comparable as per this forum but couldn't find an actionable pros/cons so was hoping heating guy would know, but I'm probably hoping for a lot.

I don't have TRVs on my rads- just standard open/close valves - does this impact the install of the Tado TRVs?

deezell wrote: »

1. How many wall thermostats do you have.
2. Do you have a timer, digital or notch clock type.
3. If digital, how many zones ( e.g., 2 CH, 1HW)
4. Do you have TRV valves on your radiators.
5. What Tado control had you in mind ( single CH right up to CH multi room with HW timing
6. Photos of existing kit, description of operation, e.g, HW only possible, timed only CH or timed and thermostat, CH without HW possible, zone valves etc.

Replacing one or two wired wall stats with Tado stats and eating your current HW setup is child's play to install. Straight swap, 20 mins for a sparks or DIY you do all the Internet stuff. Replacing existing TRVS with tado equally simple.

Thanks deezell, thanks Clareman - those sound like questions I do not have much idea about.

1. - I think only one and it is not on the wall. there is some wireless unit that connects to the boiler. and then it can be controlled via eph ember.
2. AFAIK, eph ember just does timer type. so I guess that way
3. i think 1 CH / 1 HW i.e. heating the water and heating the house - those 2 zones.
4. don't think the valves are TRVs. they are manual. i just now read on tado's website that I should first replace the valves with TRVs and then their heads with smart TRVs.
5. I would like to achieve multi zone control i.e. some rooms heating some not at different times of the day or based on some other triggers. what would that require?
6. will get these and get back. the boiler is from Ideal and I don't see Ideal in tado's list of supported boilers though so probably I already need to start looking at netatmo or dryserwise.

ablelocks wrote: »

that's a plumber job for me. There's a couple of other things need to be checked out as well so will leave it for a while and just put in the wired starter kit for now + 2 extra wired thermo's when they go on sale.

step 2 then will be the TRV's

thanks

If you only have a single CH zone, and your current system is wireless stat to an Ember 2 zone receiver, you will need the Tado extension kit to replace the ember and to connect the Tado thermostat wirelessly, as there are no existing wires from a wall stat back to the boiler or ember.
You will have no need for two further wired stats as you don't have 3 CH zones to control, only one. If you later fit 2 or more TRVs this will give you room control for these radiators, but all other radiators will heat when a TRV radiator calls for heat, as you only have a single plumbed CH circuit. Adding just a few TRVs is most useful for turning off individual rooms during a CH cycle. You can install additional wireless wall stats (or the less expensive wireless sensor wall stats, no wired relay built in) to act as temperature sensors for any Tado TRVs you install, this is done to give more accurate readings of temperature than is available using the TRV's own sensor.

deezell wrote: »

Apologies, I thought your response was from the original query from Brio09, my fault reading in the sunshine. In your case, spot on, three wired stats, DIY simple job.

thanks for the tip deezell! i read through it and it helps :-)
i should look for wireless + extension kit + TRVs, if in tado.
now that i have also checked up tado compatibility, it seems it may not be compatible with my boiler, which is from Ideal. so hopefully these learnings help me figure out dryserwise vs netatmo.

Very little difference.
Have a read here,
https://www.homekitauthority.com/tado-smart-heating-v3-the-subscription-explained/

deezell wrote: »

Sorry about delayed reply. Ideal boilers used here are pretty much all straightforward switched live (SL) triggered, a simple relay contact from a stat or controll er wired into the boiler SL terminal is all that is needed to fire it on or off. Its how the rest of your system is plumbed/ wired (i.e, zone valves? Gravity fed HW TO the cylinder?) that determines how compatible it is with Tado control, but there's not much you can't do when installing a Tado to replace an existing 2 zone CH/HW controller, Tado can cover all the quirks of these, whither they are wired for pumped or gravity systems, or with motorised valves. As a DIY job it can be a little anxiety inducing, but at the end of the day its about transferring switching on /off of your existing boiler, pump and/or valves from the old ember receiver to the new Tado receiver. As you say, these "Electrical Learnings make benefit Glorious Heating of Brio09Stan", or something like that.

haha I like the quote, I see what you mean. i reached out to a plumber who claimed to have worked with tado installation before and he and I are talking to tado support to get more clarifications before we go ahead and purchase. it does seem that tado will at least work with the boiler.
unfortunately, the awesome deals from a few ago are gone.

Q - It seems tado cannot have wireless repeaters, nor a mesh network, nor multiple internet bridges. for a ~150 sq.m house spread across ground and first floor + converted attic (smart TRVs everywhere) + boiler in shed at the back, do you think tado's approach of a single RF hub will work? or will that constrain us and we will need to go an alternative like netatmo?

Clareman wrote: »

I have tado on a Google Mesh network, no problem at all

Oh oh, this is what Tado support wrote to me:

I will search more online I guess as this is conflicting info and will make or break the decision to go with tado for me.
your tado is connected via wifi and not via ethernet to google nest mesh and not the modem, right?

The Bridge connects to your local network by Ethernet only. All other Tado devices, stats, ext. kit, trvs, sensors, connect to the Bridge wirelessly, but not using WiFi. The connection is a low power wireless protocol, 6LoWPAN, an 'IPv6 over Low -Power Wireless Personal Area Networks'. The protocol supports mesh topology, device to device repeating, but afaik Tado only implement hub or star topology, it would probably strain devices such as TRVs in terms of processing and power consumption to act as repeaters. I've no knowledge as to how other mesh devices can be inserted into the Tado environment to act as repeaters, but anything is possible I suppose.