Home heating automation

xckjoo

deezell wrote: »

You have it right. Right also re. the parking terminals, but there should be enough space in one to push both N wires in, to park and link.

Cheers. Don't think the two wires will fit in one terminal, but should have some wago clips floating around. If I join the neutrals do I still need a common line running to the parking terminal? Can't see an obvious need for it but I'm more used to DC than AC circuits

Shefwedfan

Might be silly question, knowing me it is, so all the recommendations seem to be for Tado, is this the best on market?

In terms of smart radiator with smart heating controls

limnam

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Might be silly question, knowing me it is, so all the recommendations seem to be for Tado, is this the best on market?

In terms of smart radiator with smart heating controls

Tado were ahead of the game as far as feature sets IMHO.


But a lot of other houses have caught up now.



I think if you put everything together. The quality of the product, their support is excellent, they've also opened up the API to things like HA.


Pretty much the only negative aspect I've heard is the sub, which you may not even need.

xckjoo

limnam wrote: »

Tado were ahead of the game as far as feature sets IMHO.


But a lot of other houses have caught up now.



I think if you put everything together. The quality of the product, their support is excellent, they've also opened up the API to things like HA.


Pretty much the only negative aspect I've heard is the sub, which you may not even need.

The subscription is kinda a positive in my eyes. The company needs a continuing source of income from somewhere. Better this than them trying to entice people to buy new systems or going bust. And the fact they've open APIs means if they do go bust I'll still be able to use it with things like HA

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

Cheers. Don't think the two wires will fit in one terminal, but should have some wago clips floating around. If I join the neutrals do I still need a common line running to the parking terminal? Can't see an obvious need for it but I'm more used to DC than AC circuits

No, No need to use the park. Check there's enough room for the Wago. A single section of small terminal block will do also.

limnam

xckjoo wrote: »

The subscription is kinda a positive in my eyes. The company needs a continuing source of income from somewhere. Better this than them trying to entice people to buy new systems or going bust. And the fact they've open APIs means if they do go bust I'll still be able to use it with things like HA

Yeah I'm happy to pay it, fairly reasonable too for the year.

championc

limnam wrote: »

Yeah I'm happy to pay it, fairly reasonable too for the year.

Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

Clareman

championc wrote: »

Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

Geofencing is going to get harder and harder to do with a lot of the changes coming to iOS 14 and Android

limnam

championc wrote: »

Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

Happy to pay for the service. They offer excellent support, the software/hardware is top notch.

I'd much rather pay and have them around than not and they go out of business.

Servers/sapce/power/people to run them etc. It's not cheap.

xckjoo

Just wanted to say that I got this up and running and all's looking good. Feeling super fancy with my little white box on the wall instead of the clunky analog timer. Thanks to everyone for the help!

championc wrote: »

Or you could do what I did and buy a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay and get the Open Window Detection and the GeoFencing for free. Every other part of my system is V3+

I got a V3+ Internet Bridge with the starter kit, but sold it later on Adverts

Is Open Window Detection a paid feature? Seems to be just showing up as a option for me. Haven't looked at geofencing yet. Don't go anywhere these days to need it

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

Just wanted to say that I got this up and running and all's looking good. Feeling super fancy with my little white box on the wall instead of the clunky analog timer. Thanks to everyone for the help!






Is Open Window Detection a paid feature? Seems to be just showing up as a option for me. Haven't looked at geofencing yet. Don't go anywhere these days to need it

Open window is supposed to be part of the optional subscription, V3+ ? It
It was included in V2 along with Geofence. Open window is not really relevant with just a main stat in a central location, say hall, living or landing. I've only seen it alert once in years for a Tado TRV, and that was when, em, the window over it was left open.

championc

Another fantastic example of the versatility of the Tado. My wife needed a few bits of washing dried urgently on a radiator. So simply a matter of up'ing the temperature on the one rad, the boiler came on for about 3 mins at most, heated the single rad, went into circulation for a minute and then and shut down.

limnam

championc wrote: »

Another fantastic example of the versatility of the Tado. My wife needed a few bits of washing dried urgently on a radiator. So simply a matter of up'ing the temperature on the one rad, the boiler came on for about 3 mins at most, heated the single rad, went into circulation for a minute and then and shut down.

Tado's the job

deezell

Could be useful also when the cat wants her radiator hung cat bed heated. Time it for certain periods, see does she figure it out. Our belated cat preferred the gap in the double panel kitchen radiator, with the convection fins in between. She would squeeze between the panels, sitting on the fins, baking away. She knew it came on full in the mornings.

deezell

Just noticed my Tado phone app has updated to a new interface. V5.11.1. I presume this is the new app? Still have all my V2 stat skills as they are now calling them. I didn't pay the one off sub either, so they must be winding down the old app.

championc

deezell wrote: »

Just noticed my Tado phone app has updated to a new interface. V5.11.1. I presume this is the new app? Still have all my V2 stat skills as they are now calling them. I didn't pay the one off sub either, so they must be winding down the old app.

One change I noticed was that if I override the temperature of one rad (which I did and posted about yesterday), it runs that override until the next timed scheduled time, when it then reverts to your schedule again.

Toots

Would anyone be able to recommend some sort of smart heating controller alternative to Climote?

My parents are elderly and their heating controls are in an awkward spot under the stairs, and during the winter they're constantly in and out boosting it for an hour if the house gets cold. They were looking at the climote offer from Airtricity but I was wondering is there a simpler/cheaper alternative (I had the Airtricity climote in my old house, and while it worked great, I was waiting 4 months to get the thing installed, which isn't ideal) Basically what they want is a way to turn the heating on and off/set schedules with their phones. Also it needs to be compatible with Alexa. They don't have zoned heating, but they would like to be able to access the heating from outside the house (turn it on so the house is warm if they go out etc)

john_doe.

Hi

i was looking for some advice on attached logic diagram to see does it make sense

Current Set Up
3 zones:
• Zone 1 -9 Rads + 1 towel rail
• Zone 2 -2 Rads + 2 towel rails
• Zone 3 Hot water

Solid fuel stove
old boiler with no Switch Live
3 Analogue clocks that control the heating & hot water

14 Radiators List
1. Home Office
2. Spare Bedroom
3. Living Room
4. Hall
5. Towel Rail Main Bathroom
6. Kitchen 1
7. Kitchen 2
8. Back Bathroom
9. Play Room
10. Bedroom 2
11. Towel Rail – Bedroom 2
12. Main Bedroom
13. Towel Rail Main Bedroom
14. Basement


Picture of set up here : https://photos.app.goo.gl/RHi2Rx4zwunso5CW9

Proposed Set UP
Install Drayton 3 Channel controller with smart TRVS associated signal boosters and Manual Thermostats
Replace the Lex box with PLC and house all parts in small electrical box. Have a manual switch for override of hot water and heating incase the drayton fails.

1. Home Office (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
2. Spare Bedroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
3. Living Room (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
4. Hall (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
5. Towel Rail Main Bathroom
6. Kitchen rad 1 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted && Temp Sensor groups kitchen)
7. Kitchen rad 2 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted && Temp Sensor groups kitchen)
8. Back Bathroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
9. Play Room (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted)
10. Bedroom 2 (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted & Temp Sensor)
11. Towel Rail – Bedroom 2
12. Main Bedroom (Drayton Smart TRV Fitted & Temp Sensor)
13. Towel Rail Main Bedroom
14. Basement

Progress : Have installed the Smart TRVs , the boosters and the thermostats.
Progress: Have Purchased the Siemens PLC Logo Unit,its expansion block & designed logic but not installed

The Siemens PLC Unit comes with a Display and also an Ethernet port for checking Input and outputs statuses.

https://www.automation24.biz/siemens-logo-230-rce-6ed1052-1fb08-0ba0

(I4)Drayton Ch 1 = Channel 1 on the Drayton which is set to control Zone 1 ground floor heating
(I5)Drayton Ch 3 = Channel 3 on the Drayton which is set to control Zone 2 upstairs heating
(I6)Drayton HW= Channel on the Drayton that controls hot water.
I1= a manual switch which when on turns on allows the Drayton to call the boiler.
I2= a manual switch that is used to turn on heating manually incase the drayton fails, this is emergency use only, But in situation drayton goes down and dont want a cold house
I3= a manual switch that is used to trun on hot water manually incase the drayton fails.
I7= Stat on hot water cylinder
I8= Stat on the Stove , the stove is connected to radiators.

---

Q1= The Boiler
Q2= Pump for the boiler
Q3= Pump Zone 1 (ground floor heating)
Q4= Pump Zone 2 (upstairs heating)
Q6= Pump for the stove

deezell

championc wrote: »

One change I noticed was that if I override the temperature of one rad (which I did and posted about yesterday), it runs that override until the next timed scheduled time, when it then reverts to your schedule again.

If you override the rad manually, by turning the TRV knob, it runs for the time set in Settings/Rooms/Manual Control/Timer. If you override on the app, it goes to the next event, until you adjust the slider back to a fixed time, which becomes the default for subsequent app overrides.

deezell

Toots wrote: »

Would anyone be able to recommend some sort of smart heating controller alternative to Climote?

My parents are elderly and their heating controls are in an awkward spot under the stairs, and during the winter they're constantly in and out boosting it for an hour if the house gets cold. They were looking at the climote offer from Airtricity but I was wondering is there a simpler/cheaper alternative (I had the Airtricity climote in my old house, and while it worked great, I was waiting 4 months to get the thing installed, which isn't ideal) Basically what they want is a way to turn the heating on and off/set schedules with their phones. Also it needs to be compatible with Alexa. They don't have zoned heating, but they would like to be able to access the heating from outside the house (turn it on so the house is warm if they go out etc)

What does the heating control(s) under the stairs look like. Make, Model or even a photo.
Do they have a hot water cylinder. Is it controlled also from under the stairs.
Assuming the house has no wall thermostat, my initial suggestion is a wired smart stat located in hall on the higher stairs panelling, to be easily connected to the current controls wiring. Tado or Netatmo wired, ideal for this. Also cost effective are Hive and Drayton Wiser, which are wireless to their wired receiver, so the thermostat can be wirelessy mounted where they spend the most time. This would be a simple install for an electrician or competent handyman.

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

Hi

i was looking for some advice on attached logic diagram to see does it make sense..... [ \Quote]

it makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure it will work for you. Me, I would just have installed the Wiser receiver ( it is the Wiser 3 channel receiver/hub?) in place of the 3 timers, tested that the wireless stats controlled their zones, let the manual stove stat and cylinder stat continue to do their thing, and introduce the individual smart TRVs one a time, schedule, test and check if their associated zone pump ran and the boiler fired. I'd worry with full trv control that you haven't left some open rads (other than towel rails) to absorb stove heat. You had a well fitted manifold system, try not to introduce contradictory or crossed connections, which will have stuff on when it should be off and vice versa. E.g. your diagrams have multiple stove stat NO connections, but these all seem to be the same pair? It's not clear what anything does.
The bit about the boiler having no SL, I presume it's a basic mains controlled boiler, on or off, no permanent live for digital circuits or temperature displays or post purge or any of that modern pansy stuff. (I'm joking). The only issue wirh this boiler might be the current requirement via the contacts of the lex box relay, as it's powering the entire boiler which has a decent inductive start up surge. Still, lex box or it's replacement should be up to it, just check the boiler mains rating and the relays rating thats firing the boiler.
I think I've commented on all this before in this thread? Logically it's simple. Three pumps controlled by three relays for each zone call, CH1, CH2 and HW. Boiler is fired for any of these calls, except when the stove relay is closed, boiler should be cut and one or both CH zone pumps should be activated, even if the zone stat is not calling (herein lies the problem of all rads closed by TRVs). The HW pump to cylinder, and open towel rails may not be sufficient to sink the heat from a raging stove, besides which it should have a gravity feed from the stove, otherwise the stove has a closed loop until the pumps come on and open the non return valves on each zone. Again, I assume you have the Drayton Wiser controller, you mention of manual stats is at odds with the smart TRVs which require the wiser channel hub to fire the boiler. Perhaps you're not using the main stats at all? Keep at it and good luck.

Toots

deezell wrote: »

What does the heating control(s) under the stairs look like. Make, Model or even a photo.
Do they have a hot water cylinder. Is it controlled also from under the stairs.
Assuming the house has no wall thermostat, my initial suggestion is a wired smart stat located in hall on the higher stairs panelling, to be easily connected to the current controls wiring. Tado or Netatmo wired, ideal for this. Also cost effective are Hive and Drayton Wiser, which are wireless to their wired receiver, so the thermostat can be wirelessy mounted where they spend the most time. This would be a simple install for an electrician or competent handyman.

I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

deezell

Toots wrote: »

I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

It's just a case of getting a smart stat like Tado or the others wired in place of that little timer. Tado is a simple wire in job. Netatmo also. Hive and Drayton Wiser smart stats have a wireless receiver which replaces that timer, then a stat which can be placed anywhere. Netatmo also have a wireless version, Tado similarly with an optional receiver at extra cost. Any competent diy'er or sparks would fit one in in a jiffy. Plumbers tend to recommend more basic models like the EPH ember, which is not as capable as the others, but probably as easy to set as the existing timer. Honeywell Home is another Smart stat option, easy install, turms on heat as you get near the house etc.
They all cost €140-200, sometimes good discounts on amazon, or the power companies will stick one in free and claim your grant to (more) than cover their cost, plus you might have to change your plan and rates.

Good Amazon price for Tado this minute. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FZ3P393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_T6KdFb8PAWPK9

Energia will fit Netatmo free if you sign up their plan.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07FZ3P393/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_T6KdFb8PAWPK9

Shefwedfan

41% discount with Netatamo

https://onebigswitch.ie/offers/energy/?utm_campaign=energy_multi&utm_content=200713&utm_medium=email&utm_source=email_obsie&utm_term=cta1

Not sure if link will open but on OneBigSwitcch

championc

Toots wrote: »

I've attached pics of the control panel there, and also of the make/model details of the boiler.

They do have a cylinder/tank in the hotpress, which is an immersion heater and is controlled by a switch in the hotpress and one of those old-style rotary timers where you push little sections of the dial in for the time you want it on.

There actually is an old thermostat in the hall, but it's not connected to anything, it was from the old oil heating system that they had in the house about 30 years ago when the boiler was out in the shed. I don't think there's any functioning thermostat controls in the house at all now.

Or for £25 extra, you can get the Tado Starter Kit which includes 2 x Smart TRV's too. A pair of TRV's would normally cost about £100

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YCY3T1S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_5IRdFbCTTSHZB

xckjoo

championc wrote: »

Or for £25 extra, you can get the Tado Starter Kit which includes 2 x Smart TRV's too. A pair of TRV's would normally cost about £100

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07YCY3T1S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_5IRdFbCTTSHZB

I think if you don't already have TRVs on the radiators, they'll have to have the whole system drained to install them. Not the worst job but it would probably bring it from a DIY job to one you'd want a pro to do.

deezell

(S)he just wants a swap from the stairs cupboard timer to an accessible stat with an app. Any of the main brands are ideal, It's getting it installed quickly that's more important.

Toots

Thanks guys, I’ll have a look at those. I’m not sure about the thermostatic valves, that might be too much for the auld pair to take on board. My husband used to be a plumber, so if it came to having to drain the system, he could do it, although he’d prefer to avoid it because the plumbing is a bit temperamental in my parents house.

They like the look of the Hive. I had a quick look at the app and it looks nice and straightforward. Dad was looking on Amazon and saw this https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B088LTFQFW/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?pd_rd_i=B088LTFQFW&pd_rd_w=sX3fs&pf_rd_p=1055d8b2-c10c-4d7d-b50d-96300553e15d&pd_rd_wg=7rPMu&pf_rd_r=QFVB2SGC1T84A2VRN1JD&pd_rd_r=484fb03b-4f20-4682-b07a-c2bff08b27f2&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE1UDI2Ukg5WERIWTEmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA3MDA5ODk1WlNCQVg1WTZCQ0EmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDUzNTU2MjE1UVc2SldLTkZJVFcmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1 he likes the look of the brushed chrome (matches the light fittings) but I’m assuming that’s just the switch bit and they’d need some sort of receiver to go in where the timer is under the stairs? Also has anyone ever heard of that brand? It seems weirdly cheap and also has no reviews.

Toots

Sorry guys, just an update, the parents got confused yesterday when I was asking them about zones. Apparently when they turn on their heating it also heats the water. They can't turn on their heating without heating the water, but if they want hot water without heating they can use the immersion switch in the hotpress. Not sure if that makes a difference to the options suggested.

deezell

Toots wrote: »

Sorry guys, just an update, the parents got confused yesterday when I was asking them about zones. Apparently when they turn on their heating it also heats the water. They can't turn on their heating without heating the water, but if they want hot water without heating they can use the immersion switch in the hotpress. Not sure if that makes a difference to the options suggested.

The MoesGo is a cheap Chinese take on the smart stat market. Iirc, it and similar I've came accross requires mains power to the stat, which you already have to the timer. It's probably ok, you're on your own when it comes to setting up app access, but no reason why it should not perform the basic functions of temperature control, timing, and manual remote switching of the stat when away. It's worth a punt at £50.

Now to your HW. I guessed you had a single zone. I note on the image of the glow worm boiler there is a mode switch to enable CH or HW only mode, or both. This would imply either a three port valve internal to the boiler, and the appropriate plumbing, or an optional external valve. At the simplest, gravity heating of the cylinder can be achieved by turnimg off the CH circulation pump, assuming cylinder has a Seperate gravity feed from the boiler. Set your husband on this one. If 2 zone mode is plumbed, you can get a two zone smart stat with an extra terminal to control and switch the zones. Tado, Hive, Nest Drayton will all control CH and HW, wiring depends on what's already there. If that mode switch on the boiler actually works, I would just use that for the summer, HW without CH.