Home heating automation

xckjoo

I'm still not fully getting my head around what I need to do for my heating. I've a Riello 40 G3B oil burner and an immersion. I've given up on getting a system to cover the two of them and just going to focus on the oil for now. Single zone and no TRVs or thermostats or anything fancy like that. The whole system needs an overhaul, but I'll probably leave it for now until we're doing a bigger job on the house.



I think I need the Tado Extension kit to handle the boiler interactions. Currently we've a Flash Immermat timer handling the on/off of the heat. Am I just going to be replacing the timer with the Extension kit or am I completely off the mark?

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm still not fully getting my head around what I need to do for my heating. I've a Riello 40 G3B oil burner and an immersion. I've given up on getting a system to cover the two of them and just going to focus on the oil for now. Single zone and no TRVs or thermostats or anything fancy like that. The whole system needs an overhaul, but I'll probably leave it for now until we're doing a bigger job on the house.


I think I need the Tado Extension kit to handle the boiler interactions. Currently we've a Flash Immermat timer handling the on/off of the heat. Am I just going to be replacing the timer with the Extension kit or am I completely off the mark?

When you have the oil on does it heat the HW.

xckjoo

deezell wrote: »

When you have the oil on does it heat the HW.

Yup

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

Yup

If the cylinder is plumbed by a gravity circuit from the oil boiler, firing the boiler without the circulation pump on can give you HW only, provided radiators are behind a one way valve which will prevent gravity heating of upstairs radiators. If this was the case, you could have a 1.5 zone system, HW only or HW and CH, without any extra plumbing. With such a system, the immersion would not be used, and provided there was oil heated water in the cylinder, the immersion stat would prevent it turning on.

deezell

At the minimum, you can just replace the timer with the Tado, wired back to the timer location or connected wirelessly using the ext. Kit. If you get the ext kit, it can be used to set up the previous gravity zone system.

xckjoo

deezell wrote: »

If the cylinder is plumbed by a gravity circuit from the oil boiler, firing the boiler without the circulation pump on can give you HW only, provided radiators are behind a one way valve which will prevent gravity heating of upstairs radiators. If this was the case, you could have a 1.5 zone system, HW only or HW and CH, without any extra plumbing. With such a system, the immersion would not be used, and provided there was oil heated water in the cylinder, the immersion stat would prevent it turning on.

That's interesting. I've a feeling we don't have one way valves though. It's an old set up that could do with an update.
I'll have to talk to my plumber. Unless there's an easy way to tell by looking at it?

deezell wrote: »

At the minimum, you can just replace the timer with the Tado, wired back to the timer location or connected wirelessly using the ext. Kit. If you get the ext kit, it can be used to set up the previous gravity zone system.

So the basic Tado would replace the timer I have? I had it in my head I'd need the extension kit but if I'm understanding you right it sounds like that would be to directly control the boiler and pump (independently) while the standard tado would do temperature monitoring and firing of boiler+pump?

deezell

Extension kit provides wireless connectivity of the Tado stat to a relay, and has an extra contact to control a HW zone valve, or to operate the circulation pump independently of firing the boiler. Stat on its own has just a relay to fire the boiler/power circulation pump, in place of the current timer. Ext kit might still be handy as you'll likely position the stat elsewhere from the timer, and it can be tricky routing cables back there.
You're right in your final analysis, so you have the idea. A plumber could tell if the cylinder is independently supplied by gravity from the boiler, and if the HW circuit has a non return valve on the CH flow after the circulation pump. The HW cylinder might just be tapped off the CH flow and return, meaning you have an absolute single zone system.

xckjoo

deezell wrote: »

Extension kit provides wireless connectivity of the Tado stat to a relay, and has an extra contact to control a HW zone valve, or to operate the circulation pump independently of firing the boiler. Stat on its own has just a relay to fire the boiler/power circulation pump, in place of the current timer. Ext kit might still be handy as you'll likely position the stat elsewhere from the timer, and it can be tricky routing cables back there.
You're right in your final analysis, so you have the idea. A plumber could tell if the cylinder is independently supplied by gravity from the boiler, and if the HW circuit has a non return valve on the CH flow after the circulation pump. The HW cylinder might just be tapped off the CH flow and return, meaning you have an absolute single zone system.

That's good to know. I might just grab the basic kit for now and replace the timer. I can always look at the extension kit again. I'm not a fan of the timer. I'll check the size and wiring before ordering. After I turn it off at the mains of course :pac:



Thanks a million deezell. Appreciate the help.

andydurnin

I have a Mitsubishi ecodan heating system. Dose anyone know if I can connect a nest system to it or a tado system to it. If so dose anyone know anyone who can install it for me.

deezell

andydurnin wrote: »

I have a Mitsubishi ecodan heating system. Dose anyone know if I can connect a nest system to it or a tado system to it. If so dose anyone know anyone who can install it for me.

Both Nest and Tado thermostats can control heat pump sources, but not generally for HW control, as this is better left to the ecodan system itself. For central heating control, assuming you have a room thermostat connected into the ecodan, it should be a simple matter of substitution for the Tado stat directly or the wireless receiver's relay of the Nest. If your ecodan is just operated for CH by a timer switch, the stat terminals can be wired into or in place of this timer. In this case you may have to run cables from the timer location to a suitable location for the static if using the wired Tado. Yo can get the optional wireless ext kit for the Tado, the Nest has this as standard. What is the model no of the ecodan you have.

dauhee

anyone ever go down the really cheapo route and keep their existing non-smart heating controller and use sonoff basic to trigger the signal connection to turn on a heating zone? It would be just to connect the live on the sonoff output side

I have a 3 zone setup but only need to automate 1 zone so its only 1 sonoff basic for 4.50Eur. Am going to hook it up to a zone on a h37xl heating controller, which has a lovely cutout panel on bottom for the wires to come out of.

For security, I block internet for my sonoff devices and control them on LAN from a raspberry pi which I can access from the internet

deezell

dauhee wrote: »

anyone ever go down the really cheapo route and keep their existing non-smart heating controller and use sonoff basic to trigger the signal .....
......I only need to automate 1 zone so its only 1 sonoff basic for 4.50Eur......
/QUOTE]

Oh yes, it's been done, plenty of tightwads and cheapskates on this thread. I know it's a stretch, but if you can afford the extra €1.50-€2.00 for the Sonoff with the temperature/humidity sensor, this one,

you'll have a thermostat, and a switch, that you can read and program with the Sonoff app, or your pi setup.

deezell

Cheap as chips.

dauhee

thanks for the advice deezel. its not about the money though, but the control, and sonoff is just perfect for my setup. my heating control panel is in a bad spot for monitoring temp so TH16 doesn't suit there. I have wemos d1 minis with DS18B20 probes where want to get temp (doing other stuff also), but might pick up a TH16 to mess around with and see about pulling back readings from it

dauhee

heating.jpg

Need to do some tidy up, but yeah Sonoff works perfectly for anyone considering. Just use Sonoff Basic, 1 per zone. Even if didn't get too technical and just used the eWelink app, can setup timers and inching - same as any "smart" controls.

ali-d1936

Hi all,
Recently bought a house, is a 2 story and was built in 2004, it has one heating zone that heats rads and water, and a immersion switch also. There are no sensors in the house heating when it's on heat seems to be regulated by the temperature of the water returning to the boiler.
Currently the oil boiler runs off a APT clock so heating. Can be timed or on continually. And we have manual thermostat valves on all radiators.

I really want to be able to knock on the heating if I am out of the house on the way home and if it can save on the heating bill it's a bonus 😠and the ability to turn on the immersion also.

I'm looking at the Google Nest but I'm worried by the reviews on Amazon and I feel I'm falling for it as it's flashy.

A electrician is comming in 2 weeks so I'm under pressure to find a solution and get it posted for him so need some solid advice.

Will the nest be the best at what I want bar the €200 price tag or do I need to look elsewhere.

2011

ali-d1936 wrote: »

Hi all,
Recently bought a house, is a 2 story and was built in 2004, it has one heating zone that heats rads and water, and a immersion switch also.

First of all I would get a plumber in and see if it can be split into 2 or better still 3 zones. This will make a huge difference regardless of what smart controls you select.

championc

ali-d1936 wrote: »

Hi all,
Recently bought a house, is a 2 story and was built in 2004, it has one heating zone that heats rads and water, and a immersion switch also. There are no sensors in the house heating when it's on heat seems to be regulated by the temperature of the water returning to the boiler.
Currently the oil boiler runs off a APT clock so heating. Can be timed or on continually. And we have manual thermostat valves on all radiators.

I really want to be able to knock on the heating if I am out of the house on the way home and if it can save on the heating bill it's a bonus 😠and the ability to turn on the immersion also.

I'm looking at the Google Nest but I'm worried by the reviews on Amazon and I feel I'm falling for it as it's flashy.

A electrician is comming in 2 weeks so I'm under pressure to find a solution and get it posted for him so need some solid advice.

Will the nest be the best at what I want bar the €200 price tag or do I need to look elsewhere.

I wouldn't agree with @2011 . TRV's are somewhat all individual zones. I feel you should seriously look at the Tado system. I have it about a month or so and I'm very impressed with it. It gives you control in abundance, per rad. Another excellent thing for me is that it turns the whole boiler off when not calling for heat, rather than it staying circulating..

Look back at posts #1942 and #1943

I got Quad packs on Amazon for £180 each and a starter kit with a Duo pack for £140 (I needed 10 TRV's). But I do believe that is slowly paying for itself. Temperatures are way more constant in rooms when the heating comes on in them.

paulgrogan.eu

championc wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with @2011 . TRV's are somewhat all individual zones. I feel you should seriously look at the Tado system. I have it about a month or so and I'm very impressed with it. It gives you control in abundance, per rad. Another excellent thing for me is that it turns the whole boiler off when not calling for heat, rather than it staying circulating..

Look back at posts #1942 and #1943

I got Quad packs on Amazon for £180 each and a starter kit with a Duo pack for £140 (I needed 10 TRV's). But I do believe that is slowly paying for itself. Temperatures are way more constant in rooms when the heating comes on in them.

+1 for me on this and I'm pretty much on the same timeline as this poster here. I'd echo all the points here and say that so far I'm super impressed.


Initially we were playing with it a little here and there, but at this stage we hardly ever touch it now.


Keep an eye on the bargains thread as there's plenty of discounts running for it at the moment, including a super one doing 44% directly on their website across all products.


P.

lucast2007us

ali-d1936 wrote:

Hi all, Recently bought a house, is a 2 story and was built in 2004, it has one heating zone that heats rads and water, and a immersion switch also. There are no sensors in the house heating when it's on heat seems to be regulated by the temperature of the water returning to the boiler. Currently the oil boiler runs off a APT clock so heating. Can be timed or on continually. And we have manual thermostat valves on all radiators.

When you say manual thermostat controls on the radiators, do you mean the old style +- symbols or the numbers on the knob?

2011

championc wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with @2011 . TRV's are somewhat all individual zones.

I am not against TRV’s, in fact I think they are great. However I believe that a system is best when they complement zone valves. Zone valves and TRVs are not mutually exclusive.

In the summer when you want to heat domestic hot water only and not radiators. Even if all of the TRVs are closed it is wasteful and inefficient to circulate hot water to the radiators. For the quickest response time and minimum use of fuel is if as much heat as possible is directed from the boiler to the hot water cylinder. If some of this heat is unnecessary diverted anywhere it will result in reduced heat transfer.


You also need to consider that sometimes you may want to heat the house quickly and not slow the process down by needlessly heating domestic hot water. A TRV will be of no use in this case where as a zone valve will deal with this perfectly.

Another excellent thing for me is that it turns the whole boiler off when not calling for heat, rather than it staying circulating..

Yes, always important to turn the boiler off when set points are achieved. Zone valves can of course shut the boiler off with hard wired interlocks / permissives. This can be achieved by using the auxiliary wiring that is standard on zone valves. These wire are normally colored orange and grey. Easy, peasy!

championc

2011 wrote: »

I am not against TRV’s, in fact I think they are great. However I believe that a system is best when they complement zone valves. Zone valves and TRVs are not mutually exclusive.

In the summer when you want to heat domestic hot water only and not radiators. Even if all of the TRVs are closed it is wasteful and inefficient to circulate hot water to the radiators. For the quickest response time and minimum use of fuel is if as much heat as possible is directed from the boiler to the hot water cylinder. If some of this heat is unnecessary diverted anywhere it will result in reduced heat transfer.


You also need to consider that sometimes you may want to heat the house quickly and not slow the process down by needlessly heating domestic hot water. A TRV will be of no use in this case where as a zone valve will deal with this perfectly.



Yes, always important to turn the boiler off when set points are achieved. Zone valves can of course shut the boiler off with hard wired interlocks / permissives. This can be achieved by using the auxiliary wiring that is standard on zone valves. These wire are normally colored orange and grey. Easy, peasy!

I think you are possibly unaware of one of the main features of the Tado. Tado can setup all of the TRV's (well, up to 10) into a group, which can talk to the boiler via the Smart Thermostat, enabling any one TRV to turn the boiler on or off. So every TRV in a Tado is basically turned into it's own Zone.

Of course, it depends where the split off the pipework is for the immersion loop. But if all zones are closed, then nothing can circulate.

So after the system is setup, you then need to contact Tado support to get the TRV's linked up to the Smart Thermostat. Only they can do this.

2011

championc wrote: »

I think you are possibly unaware of one of the main features of the Tado. Tado can setup all of the TRV's (well, up to 10) into a group, which can talk to the boiler via the Smart Thermostat, enabling any one TRV to turn the boiler on or off. So every TRV in a Tado is basically turned into it's own Zone.

I understand that and I think it is great.

Of course, it depends where the split off the pipework is for the immersion loop.

My point is that radiators are plumbed on a loop (for want of a better word). Hot water from the boiler is pumped around that loop. This hot water passes through the radiators when the TRV's are open. If all TRV's are closed and there are no zone valves this loop will have hot water circulated around it even when the TRV's are closed anytime DHW (domestic hot water) is required. This is wasteful and the boiler will not be shut off by the TRV's as the boiler is required for DHW.

But if all zones are closed, then nothing can circulate.

By "zones" do you mean TRV's? If so depending on how it is plumbed water may still circulate. Hot water may still be able to circulate around the circuit that the radiators are on even if it can't enter the radiators.


Also you have not explained how you would prevent DHW from being heated when only radiators are required with Tado (I do not believe this is possible with your proposal). A zone valve is the only viable solution for this.

This diagram illustrates my point:

https://www.theunderfloorheatingstore.com/media/wysiwyg/landing-pages/confused/water-diagram-single-zone.jpg

deezell

Wha diageram ?

Clareman

deezell wrote: »

Wha diageram ?

https://www.theunderfloorheatingstore.com/media/wysiwyg/landing-pages/confused/water-diagram-single-zone.jpg

This 1 I assume, if an image doesn't appear just quote the post and get the link to the pic, I think there's an issue with pictures from some sites embedding here for some reason

Clareman

Actually I think that site is blocking direct linking, might have to refresh for it to display

deezell

ali-d1936 wrote: »

Hi all,
Recently bought a house,....
.....I really want to be able to knock on the heating if I am out of the house on the way home.....
.... An electrician is comming in 2 weeks so I'm under pressure to find a solution and get it posted for him so need some solid advice.....Will the nest be the best at what I want bar the €200 price tag or do I need to look elsewhere.

Nest will work, so will this at a bargain price, £120. Sparks will wire it in a jiffy to interrupt APT timer, plus you can automate manual TRVs later, no plumbing required. Nest has no smart TRV option.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B088GRDKG1/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_wflbFbEGR3JXT

championc

2011 wrote: »

By "zones" do you mean TRV's? If so depending on how it is plumbed water may still circulate. Hot water may still be able to circulate around the circuit that the radiators are on even if it can't enter the radiators.

Also you have not explained how you would prevent DHW from being heated when only radiators are required with Tado (I do not believe this is possible with your proposal). A zone valve is the only viable solution for this.

You would never have an open loop right at the end of the pipe run. It will always be right at the boiler itself, or the first rad will not have a TRV

99% of the time, the immersion link will either be a T off the rads pipework, or a Zone valve. Tado can handle operating one zone valve

2011

championc wrote: »

You would never have an open loop right at the end of the pipe run. It will always be right at the boiler itself, or the first rad will not have a TRV

Ok, amateur plumber here! I was under the impression that it was open at the end of the pipe run. I stand corrected. However if the first radiators has no TRV then I take it this will be heated anytime DHW is being heated with is not ideal.

99% of the time, the immersion link will either be a T off the rads pipework, or a Zone valve. Tado can handle operating one zone valve

You still have not explained how you can heat the radiators without heating domestic hot water with no zone valve.

I see you state that Tado can deal with one zone valve, so are you suggesting this should be used? Or have you another suggestion for isolating the hot water cylinder so that the radiators can be heated independently ?

championc

2011 wrote: »

Ok, amateur plumber here! I was under the impression that it was open at the end of the pipe run. I stand corrected. However if the first radiators has no TRV then I take it this will be heated anytime DHW is being heated with is not ideal.

I see you state that Tado can deal with one zone valve, so are you suggesting this should be used? Or have you another suggestion for isolating the hot water cylinder so that the radiators can be heated independently ?

I am an amateur too, and my wife would say too much of a DIYer !!! Yes, once the boiler is on, that first rad would heat up and continue doing so. Generally, the Lockshield valve will be well closed down, but nevertheless, will always be "on". My system has a simple bridge between the flow and return pipes, located right at the boiler. It has a screw tap type valve, just barely open. So with all TRV's closed, the water goes across this bridge back into the boiler, which then shuts down when it sees incoming water the same temperature as the outgoing water.

For the immersion, the Tado could control a simple valve leading into the cylinder inlet or alternatively, I'm sure a simple temperature operated valve could be on the inlet pipe, to close off once a particular temperature in the cylinder is hit.

However, when it comes to the immersion and cylinder, the Tado is simply only able to control an On or Off. So it cannot monitor the water temperature or anything like that.