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Bloody Sunday soldier to be charged with murder

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Comments

  • #252
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    maccored wrote: »
    no. i meant one ends up fighting due to external influences on the environment of their upbringing
    But surely one has a choice to join a para-military group or not? During the troubles the SDLP was the biggest nationalist group (and indeed some Catholics voted for other parties eg Alliance etc etc ) so most Catholics did not "end up fighting due to external influences on the environment of their upbringing"?
    maccored wrote: »
    and one chooses to get paid to be told who to kill.
    If you are an 18 year old working class lad in Sunderland or Hull there may not have been many other options in the 70's or 80's. Would you accept most of the over 300,000 who served in the B. army in N. Ireland did not kill, and those who did not kill got paid too?
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have never 'defended' any violence. .

    See post 872. You said for example " 'Most' IRA soldiers obeyed the law too and engaged with the British Army, only a few bad apples did stuff they shouldn't have. i.e. Kingsmill, Jerry McCabe etc. "

    You were caught out yet again.


  • #253
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    You're either lying or just don't have a clue. One way or another it's simply wrong.

    It's a simple fact that Republicans killed more Catholics than the Security Forces.

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/

    boy-with-his-fingers-in-his-ears-picture-id103732652


  • #254
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have never 'defended' any violence.

    Then why do you excuse the PIRA Kingsmill massacre as well as others as just a few bad apples in among a group of normal honorable Republicans?

    Both the Irish government and the British (primarily) were the responsible ones. Both of them recognised what was happening (read your history) and both of them to varying degrees relinquished their responsibilities and allowed the lid to come of decades of strife and community division.
    Everyone has responsibility for what happened after, but those who allowed it to happen, knowingly are ultimately responsible. They eventually took responsibility in the GFA and sorted it.

    So, the British and Irish governments had a crystal ball and knew in advance the cycle of violence the North was going to into?

    I do know my history, probably better than you, and what we see throughout the world in various conflict zones are innocuous events that spark off something much more serious and sinister.

    Who knew that the fall of the Shah of Iran would spark 50 years of Islamic conflict with the West?
    Who knew when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot and killed that it would spark off a conflict which not only resulted in WWI but also the rise of Nazism, Communism, WWII and the Cold War...
    Who knew that when the British Army was deployed (at the request of the Catholic population mind you), that it would have escalated the situation.


    But No.10 Downing street knew all along what was going to happen in the North, so they are more responsible, I guess. :pac:


  • #255
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    zapitastas wrote: »
    It will have to take place in the north, so probably Belfast

    That is if it ever happens

    A trial by jury?


  • #256
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    A trial by jury?

    I wouldn't have thought so


  • #257
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    markodaly wrote: »
    Then why do you excuse the PIRA Kingsmill massacre as well as others as just a few bad apples in among a group of normal honorable Republicans?




    So, the British and Irish governments had a crystal ball and knew in advance the cycle of violence the North was going to into?

    I do know my history, probably better than you, and what we see throughout the world in various conflict zones are innocuous events that spark off something much more serious and sinister.

    Who knew that the fall of the Shah of Iran would spark 50 years of Islamic conflict with the West?
    Who knew when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot and killed that it would spark off a conflict which not only resulted in WWI but also the rise of Nazism, Communism, WWII and the Cold War...
    Who knew that when the British Army was deployed (at the request of the Catholic population mind you), that it would have escalated the situation.


    But No.10 Downing street knew all along what was going to happen in the North, so they are more responsible, I guess. :pac:

    Quick the British state is being criticized for the cold blooded murder of civilians. Divert and distract and get this thread closed like the last one was


  • #258
    howiya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭howiya


    markodaly wrote: »
    It's a simple fact that Republicans killed more Catholics than the Security Forces.

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/

    That's not what you said when you were initially called out on it. The link you provided will tell you that you were wrong.


  • #259
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    zapitastas wrote: »
    Quick the British state is being criticized for the cold blooded murder of civilians. Divert and distract and get this thread closed like the last one was

    Not at all.

    Soldier F and the rest of them, including the immediate commanders, should face the courts and have the book thrown at them. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key.

    My beef is with the mindset displayed by the likes of FrancieBrady where on one hand the British are 'infinitely more' to blame for the situation while the Republicans perpetrators of terrorism, were by the most part law-abiding and honorable, with just a few bad apples perpetrating things like Kingsmill and Omagh. Odd logic.

    Not only this, the British knowingly knew what would happen when they deployed soldiers to the streets of NI? Some clairvoyant $hite right there. It is a fact that the Catholic population wanted British soldiers to be deployed but we all knew how that worked out.


  • #260
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    markodaly wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Soldier F and the rest of them, including the immediate commanders, should face the courts and have the book thrown at them. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key.

    My beef is with the mindset displayed by the likes of FrancieBrady where on one hand the British are 'infinitely more' to blame for the situation while the Republicans perpetrators of terrorism, were by the most part law-abiding and honorable, with just a few bad apples perpetrating things like Kingsmill and Omagh. Odd logic.

    Not only this, the British knowingly knew what would happen when they deployed soldiers to the streets of NI? Some clairvoyant $hite right there. It is a fact that the Catholic population wanted British soldiers to be deployed but we all knew how that worked out.

    You do know that not all Republicans were terrorists right?


  • #261
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    markodaly wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Soldier F and the rest of them, including the immediate commanders, should face the courts and have the book thrown at them. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key.

    My beef is with the mindset displayed by the likes of FrancieBrady where on one hand the British are 'infinitely more' to blame for the situation while the Republicans perpetrators of terrorism, were by the most part law-abiding and honorable, with just a few bad apples perpetrating things like Kingsmill and Omagh. Odd logic.

    Not only this, the British knowingly knew what would happen when they deployed soldiers to the streets of NI? Some clairvoyant $hite right there. It is a fact that the Catholic population wanted British soldiers to be deployed but we all knew how that worked out.

    The British state created a sectarianism statelet and then facilitated 50 years of discrimination and oppression. When the natives got restless they deployed measures that were effective in other colonies to subdue the population which culminated in Ballymurphy and the bogside massacre. Their grubby dirty war involved widespread collusion with loyalists who almost always killed innocent civilians. state actors that are tasked with protecting a population begin to kill them


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  • #262
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,862 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The British state created a sectarianism statelet and then facilitated 50 years of discrimination and oppression. When the natives got restless they deployed measures that were effective in other colonies to subdue the population which culminated in Ballymurphy and the bogside massacre. Their grubby dirty war involved widespread collusion with loyalists who almost always killed innocent civilians. state actors that are tasked with protecting a population begin to kill them

    That may be a great soundbite for An Poblacht. However, the reality of the formation of the state of NI and its history is a lot more complicated than that.

    The public record of the debate that happened in the HoC is quite clear on the matter that most MP's and Lords wanted Ulster to eventually be subsumed into the Free State. Of course, it never happened that way.


  • #263
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    John Hume (imo a statesman, but a darling of those with no solutions) said after Bloody Sunday that a United Ireland was the only solution. We are still facing (if you are a Unionist) or waiting (if you are a republican/nationalist) for that question being asked. The guns are silent, but can Britain luxuriate in games with the EU and expect that to remain the same?

    John Hume above anybody else on this Island was responsible for the GFA. Your no solutions comment is typical of Sinners trying to rewrite history.


  • #264
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Then why do you excuse the PIRA Kingsmill massacre as well as others as just a few bad apples in among a group of normal honorable Republicans?

    I condemned Kingsmill and all acts like it. The fact are the facts about those acts.
    I also have no problem accepting (and have) that actions on Bloody Sunday were carried out by rogue officer and soldiers of the British state and that it was subsequently whitewashed by that state too.

    So, the British and Irish governments had a crystal ball and knew in advance the cycle of violence the North was going to into?

    I do know my history, probably better than you, and what we see throughout the world in various conflict zones are innocuous events that spark off something much more serious and sinister.

    Who knew that the fall of the Shah of Iran would spark 50 years of Islamic conflict with the West?
    Who knew when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot and killed that it would spark off a conflict which not only resulted in WWI but also the rise of Nazism, Communism, WWII and the Cold War...
    Who knew that when the British Army was deployed (at the request of the Catholic population mind you), that it would have escalated the situation.


    But No.10 Downing street knew all along what was going to happen in the North, so they are more responsible, I guess. :pac:

    You know nothing of the history of the north...you THINK you do. If you read the papers of the time you would find this:


    "History demonstrates the failure of English intervention in Irish affairs... The situation is explosive; civil war is not impossible."
    There is much more detailed analysis elsewhere but it is all littered by the very clear fact that the British knew the implications of what they were doing and NOT doing.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/01/northernireland.freedomofinformation


  • #265
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    John Hume above anybody else on this Island was responsible for the GFA. Your no solutions comment is typical of Sinners trying to rewrite history.

    :rolleyes: I said Hume was a 'statesman' - conferring on him, praise for his role.(He was pivotal, no doubt, but 'responsible above' anybody else is typical of a comment by those who are terminally biased)

    I said he is the 'darling' of those who have no solutions and who fail again and again to give credit to all of those who evolved the GFA into the representative agreement it was.


  • #266
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The British state created a sectarianism statelet and then facilitated 50 years of discrimination and oppression. When the natives got restless they deployed measures that were effective in other colonies to subdue the population which culminated in Ballymurphy and the bogside massacre. Their grubby dirty war involved widespread collusion with loyalists who almost always killed innocent civilians. state actors that are tasked with protecting a population begin to kill them

    It is quite clear that the British knew not only what was going on in the statelet they created but who was in the wrong.
    There was supposed to be a version of PR to prevent Unionists setting up a sectarian state but they stood by and watched as the Unionists changed that and the gerrymandering vote rigging that followed.

    Labour were nice and understanding and all that but ineffectual when in power and it is no surprise at all that the Tories ruled the roost when it inevitably went up in flames.


  • #267
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    janfebmar wrote:
    Nobody is sullying their reputations. They should not have been shot. As the Saville report you mention says:


    Do you accept 14 innocent civilians were murdered by the Paras? You seem to have a problem acknowledging what took place on Bloody Sunday was state sanctioned murder.


  • #268
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Do you accept 14 innocent civilians were murdered by the Paras?

    Of course innocent people were killed that day by the Paras. In this picture taken minutes before the firing on Bloody Sunday you can see all of the stones / rocks / missiles on the road, but that does not justify the firing or murders that took place after that. If if some of the Paras were suffering ptsd or whatever from one of their own being killed previously (like the soldier killed by the petrol bomb in Derry the previous year), that is no excuse for the behaviour of some of those Paras that day.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bloody-sunday-paras-were-the-wrong-regiment-in-the-wrong-place-1.2424550


  • #269
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    British government are rushing an act through parliament that will have anybody prosecuted for anything that happened before 1973 can also get early release. This case will never get to court they will find something to protect their own.

    I see there is a call for ex army men to desend on Derry which if happens will not end well

    ******



  • #270
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It is quite clear that the British knew not only what was going on in the statelet they created but who was in the wrong.
    There was supposed to be a version of PR to prevent Unionists setting up a sectarian state but they stood by and watched as the Unionists changed that and the gerrymandering vote rigging that followed.

    Labour were nice and understanding and all that but ineffectual when in power and it is no surprise at all that the Tories ruled the roost when it inevitably went up in flames.

    The original concept was fine with Sir Edward Carson who was a relatively moderate Unionist. It was the mob that followed - the fascist Craig, and senile Beaverbrooke. They stood by and administered an incredibly nasty right wing fascist statelet.

    The cracks began in the aftermath of the second world war, and the various social revolutionary reforms that followed, from Health, to Education, to Housing and more besides.

    Terence O'Neill became Prime Minister and saw things could'nt carry on as they were. He tried to build bridges and reconcile. But the festering wounds of resentment, polarisation, and much more besides were too much. It exploded. It did'nt take much, but once it exploded, it was demon released which could'nt be slain so easily.

    Those demons are'nt dead. They are sleeping,


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  • #271
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    janfebmar wrote:
    Of course innocent people were killed that day by the Paras. In this picture taken minutes before the firing on Bloody Sunday you can see all of the stones / rocks / missiles on the road, but that does not justify the firing or murders that took place after that. If if some of the Paras were suffering ptsd or whatever from one of their own being killed previously (like the soldier killed by the petrol bomb in Derry the previous year), that is no excuse for the behaviour of some of those Paras that day.

    Sweet Jesus you can't even admit 14 people were murdered by the Para's without trying to link some justification. Disgusting.


  • #272
    rapul
    Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭rapul


    I agree with the above post, disgraceful making up excuses or justifying it somehow


  • #273
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    this thread is nothing more than the picking at a scab, in the vain hope of getting it to heal over.
    there's people on here who will never agree on this topic.

    it is a complete waste of time. we all know what happened on that bloody day.

    sometimes in life you have to accept that **** happens, and move on.
    i'm not saying we should forget, but perpetuating hatred is ultimately self-defeating & self-destructive.


  • #274
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote:
    sometimes in life you have to accept that **** happens, and move on. i'm not saying we should forget, but perpetuating hatred is ultimately self-defeating & self-destructive.


    Easy to say if none of your family were victims.


  • #275
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Easy to say if none of your family were victims.

    i agree. they will carry this to their graves. their dignity has been admirable, but i dont know where they go from here.


  • #276
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    this thread is nothing more than the picking at a scab, in the vain hope of getting it to heal over.
    there's people on here who will never agree on this topic.

    it is a complete waste of time. we all know what happened on that bloody day.

    sometimes in life you have to accept that **** happens, and move on.
    i'm not saying we should forget, but perpetuating hatred is ultimately self-defeating & self-destructive.

    Listen to the guy on RTE radio right now, 'It doesn't go away, until it is dealt with'.

    I can understand why some want it to go away, those who wanted to ignore it, hoping it would go away have been around for years sadly.


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  • #277
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    from my own experience, the details of which i do not wish to share, i have come to understand that justice and truth are often highly elusive.
    it's not nice, but you come to accept it.

    as for those wishing it away. can you really blame them? sadly life goes on. ask anyone who has ever suffered grief. the victims of Bloody Sunday have no monopoly on this crap.


  • #278
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    from my own experience, the details of which i do not wish to share, i have come to understand that justice and truth are often highly elusive.
    it's not nice, but you come to accept it.

    as for those wishing it away. can you really blame them? sadly life goes on. ask anyone who has ever suffered grief. the victims of Bloody Sunday have no monopoly on this crap.

    Nobody said they had a monopoly. Although this is a familiar unionist/loyalist complaint.

    The same Unionist/Loyalists who complain about one-sided justice and then point blank refuse to take part in a process of truth finding and campaign for an amnesty for serving security forces.
    As usual speaking with forked tongues, you couldn't actually make it up.


  • #279
    Wheres Me Jumper?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Wheres Me Jumper?


    i dont think we'll resolve this injustice here. if only.
    my heart genuinely goes out to those poor families that suffered this murder.
    as it does to all those in NI who suffered murder during those dark days.

    i'm out of here.


  • #280
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    janfebmar wrote: »
    I agree and respect your point of view. However Francis thinks

    Obviously his definition of a Republican is different to yours, and he also forgets about those caught but not imprisoned.

    And we're back to the whole "It was the Republicans" mantra.

    You have chosen to ignore the obvious. All Republicans are not the same. Neither are all Nationalists. Why, then, would you equate all of them as having "questionable morals"? I also note your lack of apology for that statement.

    Would you care to answer the two questions I asked.

    1: What is morally questionable about preferring a Republic to a Monarchy?

    2: Will you wear your poppy with pride in memory of those British soldiers who murdered innocent civilians?


  • #281
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I'm going to have to say I'm loosing a lot of respect for Britain as a country since this Bloody Sunday debacle. The amount of people in England defending them is unreal.


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  • #282
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »
    i dont think we'll resolve this injustice here. if only.
    my heart genuinely goes out to those poor families that suffered this murder.
    as it does to all those in NI who suffered murder during those dark days.

    i'm out of here.

    Unfortunately, not everyone had or has the luxury of closing a browser window and it all goes away.


  • #283
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    janfebmar wrote: »
    It was in the interest of the government for it not to go up in flames ...having it go up in flames cost them a hell of a lot of money, not to mention thousands of people killed including their own politicians. They tried very hard for it not to go up in flames and according to reports even flew Adams and others to London for talks in the early seventies, but the Sinn Fein attitude was the armed struggle would continue until the British government left. Do not forget the Army came in to try to keep peace between the extremists on both sides.

    Cold blooded murder is not, and can never be, a peacekeeping "solution".

    Particularly when those who were murdered by the Paras were not extremists in any sense of the word. Those particular paratroopers who selected, pursued, and cold bloodedly murdered innocent civilians......hmmm.


  • #284
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And we're back to the whole "It was the Republicans" mantra.

    You have chosen to ignore the obvious. All Republicans are not the same. Neither are all Nationalists. Why, then, would you equate all of them as having "questionable morals"? I also note your lack of apology for that statement.


    You are mixing me up with another poster. I never said "it was theRepublicans", I never said all Republicans are the same, I never equated or mentioned all Republicans as having "questionable morals"etc.


  • #285
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I'm going to have to say I'm loosing a lot of respect for Britain as a country since this Bloody Sunday debacle. The amount of people in England defending them is unreal.

    Britain got its respect back for me around 1997/1998, although I'm no fan of Tony Blair, that Labour administration was a breath of fresh air.

    It lost it with Brexit. I've never seen a population so clueless, so ignorant, and they are actually PROUD of this ignorance.

    I say this to the British of today on the forums, and on social media:

    Look lads, the world does'nt give a damn that your Grandad was in the Normandy Landings. Its 75 effing years ago mate, and the world has moved on and is looking to a brighter and better future. Thanks, but that sacrifice was your Grandad's sacrifice, NOT yours, and you have no right to be riding around on the coat tails of his achievements. He risked death, you did'nt.

    As for Northern Ireland, I'm not from it, I can't judge it beyond arcane theories. Its for the people of Northern Ireland to decide what happens to Northern Ireland, and its safer for a lot of us to stay the hell away from it, because of its volatile nature.

    Its no wonder that the most dreaded office when cabinet seats were being assigned in the British Cabinet was:

    "Secretary of State to Northern Ireland".

    (You can almost see the wailing, the weeping, the gnashing of teeth).

    Now - closure is needed. Soldier F is a distraction, a token 'throw under the bus' soldier, an expendable commodity. Having read through all the reports of Bloody Sunday, he HAS to go down. Whether thats sufficient is another matter entirely. Having observed the fractured chaotic nature of Northern Irish politics and discourse over the decades, I'm afraid it won't be. Indeed, the risk is that it could do much more harming than healing.


  • #286
    mattser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭mattser


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Cold blooded murder is not, and can never be, a peacekeeping "solution".

    Particularly when those who were murdered by the Paras were not extremists in any sense of the word. Those particular paratroopers who selected, pursued, and cold bloodedly murdered innocent civilians......hmmm.

    Agreed. Something the good people of Warrington know to their cost also.


  • #287
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    mattser wrote:
    Agreed. Something the good people of Warrington know to their cost also.

    As do the people of Ballymurphy. The Paras were state sponsored murderers.


  • #288
    mattser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭mattser


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    As do the people of Ballymurphy. The Paras were state sponsored murderers.

    Murder is murder.


  • #289
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    mattser wrote: »
    Agreed. Something the good people of Warrington know to their cost also.

    In what sense was Warrington 'peacekeeping'? In what sense were the perpetrators of Warrington the armed forces of a government responsible for the equal administration of law and order?


  • #290
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    mattser wrote:
    Murder is murder.


    True but worse when the state engages in it as it did through the use of the paras on Bloody Sunday.


  • #291
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dermo888 wrote: »
    The original concept was fine with Sir Edward Carson who was a relatively moderate Unionist. It was the mob that followed - the fascist Craig, and senile Beaverbrooke. They stood by and administered an incredibly nasty right wing fascist statelet.

    The cracks began in the aftermath of the second world war, and the various social revolutionary reforms that followed, from Health, to Education, to Housing and more besides.

    Terence O'Neill became Prime Minister and saw things could'nt carry on as they were. He tried to build bridges and reconcile. But the festering wounds of resentment, polarisation, and much more besides were too much. It exploded. It did'nt take much, but once it exploded, it was demon released which could'nt be slain so easily.

    Those demons are'nt dead. They are sleeping,

    I hope to God they stay asleep!

    Considering the appalling lack of ministerial knowledge (or, indeed, interest) in Northern Ireland displayed during the Brexit debate, together with their idealistic defence of soldiers, I fear there is a very real risk to the peace process.


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  • #292
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I fear there is a very real risk to the peace process.

    The only risk to the peace process; which is dead and buried in truth, is from republicans. The only people who are mentioned when it comes to a return to violence is them. If republicans want to try democracy, they can have it. There is no appetite for border, violence etc from the British.


  • #293
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Berserker wrote: »
    The only risk to the peace process; which is dead and buried in truth, is from republicans. The only people who are mentioned when it comes to a return to violence is them.

    Until you mention a border poll.


  • #294
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    In what sense was Warrington 'peacekeeping'?
    I do not think anyone said or suggested
    Warrington was "peacekeeping".


  • #295
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,928 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    I do not think anyone said or suggested
    Warrington was "peacekeeping".

    The poster he/she was answering was talking about crimes committed during peacekeeping.


  • #296
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Until you mention a border poll.
    The loyalists did not use or threaten violence during the last border poll in N. Ireland which was in 1973


  • #297
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Until you mention a border poll.

    Might as well start talking about banshees. Republicans are by far the biggest threat. The security forces in the UK and the RoI will tell you that. Violence from Unionism doesn't even get mentioned.


  • #298
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The poster he/she was answering was talking about crimes committed during peacekeeping.
    During the decades of peacekeeping , Warrington (seeing as someone else mentioned it) was a crime that was committed. Most of the over 300,000 whose responsibility was to go to keep the peace in N. Ireland did not kill or break the law.


  • #299
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,311 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Berserker wrote: »
    Might as well start talking about banshees. Republicans are by far the biggest threat. The security forces in the UK and the RoI will tell you that. Violence from Unionism doesn't even get mentioned.

    The myopia is strong with this one.


  • #300
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,262 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The myopia is strong with this one.

    You would think Loyalist have done nothing in recent years




    *apart from kill others in different Loyalist groups

    ******



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  • #301
    dermo888
    Site Banned Posts: 160 ✭✭dermo888


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I hope to God they stay asleep!

    Considering the appalling lack of ministerial knowledge (or, indeed, interest) in Northern Ireland displayed during the Brexit debate, together with their idealistic defence of soldiers, I fear there is a very real risk to the peace process.

    Don't we all?

    The thing is, that Unionism still exists. Is it is militant as before? Is it potentially as violent?
    Nationalism - I get the distinct impression that the Nationalist segment have 'calmed' a lot over the past two decades and are'nt as 'bolshie' as before.

    The Republic of Ireland is a completely different type of social and economic identity to that of 1921 when partition commenced, to that of 1969 when the troubles commenced, and even that of the 1995 ceasefire, and that of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement.

    Bloody Sunday is a ticking bomb of pain that the British establishment did'nt know how to diffuse no matter how much we wanted them to find people accountable. I think a 'waiting game' took place.

    Both the Catholic and Protestant communities are much less marginalised than before, although the peace walls still stand, the reality is that partition has done grave harm to the province. It is unable to compete economically, it is heavily dependent on state sector employment, and nobody, North, South, British or Irish quite knows how to solve it.

    Its a Palestinian type puzzle, where if you aim to please everybody, you'll end up annoying everyone. Anywhere else, you could safely shrug your shoulders and say something slightly daft and insensitive like 'thats politics'. In Northern Ireland - its a different matter entirely - lives get lost with that type of nonsense.

    - Whats different now? Technology. The Provisional IRA was secretive and incredibly well organised, to a point it was almost inpenetrable. The UK security services are also 'razor sharp', far more so than their American counterparts, and possibly only Israel's MOSSAD can compete in terms of Pound per person capability.


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