Bloody Sunday soldier to be charged with murder

steddyeddy

Edgware wrote: »

.
No one is denying the link but Italians, Germans, English, Chinese etc had as important a part to play in the development of the U.S. Just study the immigration figures
"We built America" is wheeled out every year at this time to try and get Visas

Immigration figures VS contributions? Name an Italian American or Chinese president? Several of the names of the declaration of independence are Irish.

RandomName2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

13 people murdered, only one out of 18 named paratroopers to be tried. British justice at its best. He'll probably die before he faces the dock.

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

FrancieBrady

RandomName2 wrote: »

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

Any republican caught was tried and imprisoned.

If you committed murder as a soldier or an officer, you faced no penalty even 40 years after your crime and even when your PM is forced to apologise for your actions.

RandomName2

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any republican caught was tried and imprisoned.

And released.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you committed murder as a soldier or an officer, you faced no penalty even 40 years after your crime and even when your PM is forced to apologise for your actions.

One can't help but think of Mai Lai.

Fann Linn

RandomName2 wrote: »

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

The British Army & RUC could have availed of the same terms regarding amnesty etc as laid down in the GFA. However, for some reason they didn't want to be equated with paramilitaries/ terrorists.

Some of us I suppose have always equated them in the same vein and this event just highlights it.

janfebmar

steddyeddy wrote: »

Immigration figures VS contributions? Name an Italian American or Chinese president? Several of the names of the declaration of independence are Irish.

Indeed no fewer than seventeen Presidents of America can trace their ancestry back to the 6 counties which became N. Ireland (they were " Scotch- Irish" ) .
Then of course we have Kennedy and the greatest Irishman of them all, Barack Obama.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_of_Irish_descent#Presidents
So the Irish have made a big contribution to the States.

FrancieBrady

RandomName2 wrote: »

And released.



One can't help but think of Mai Lai.

I don't really care if these old men spend actual time in jail, the fact they are tried is the important point.

janfebmar

RandomName2 wrote: »

let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

That was the spirit of the time, people were released from both sides and was well known. What apparently was not well known was the "On the Runs" (OTRs) scheme,where letters were sent to more than 200 republican paramilitary suspects.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

That was the spirit of the time, people were released from both sides and was well known. What apparently was not well known was the "On the Runs" (OTRs) scheme,where letters were sent to more than 200 republican paramilitary suspects.

Plenty of British Army killers roaming free. For 50 years almost, in the case of Bloody Sunday.

Wheres Me Jumper?

RandomName2 wrote: »

A number of those paratroopers should have faced life imprisonment. Mind you, let us not forget the number of murders who, convicted, roam free and immune to prosecution due to Good Friday concessions.

spot on!

a well balanced point of view.
as with all conflicts, there have been many wrongs/injustices committed by and against all sides.

a truth & reconciliation commission similar to South Africa was probably the best way to proceed, but getting all sides to commit has proven impossible. personally i've always felt the british state had more to hide than the terrorists, probably 'cos they like to see themselves as "the good guys"

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plenty of British Army killers roaming free..

Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

FrancieBrady

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

spot on!

a well balanced point of view.
as with all conflicts, there have been many wrongs/injustices committed by and against all sides.

a truth & reconciliation commission similar to South Africa was probably the best way to proceed, but getting all sides to commit has proven impossible. personally i've always felt the british state had more to hide than the terrorists, probably 'cos they like to see themselves as "the good guys"

The only 'sides' that say NO to this are the British and Loyalist/Unionist side. Preferring to spin that the RA would not tell the truth.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Those that killed.

Fann Linn

janfebmar wrote: »

Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Probably more than will ever be convicted.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those that killed.

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Much too early to say.

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

Well we know that soldier F and the regiment involved in Bloody Sunday was the catalyst for the troubles. So their presence that day and the subsequent cover up sparked the whole war.

Plumbthedepths

janfebmar wrote:

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

What's the relevance? We know 18 Paras were implicated in the Bloody Sunday murders which is the subject matter of this thread.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only 'sides' that say NO to this are the British and Loyalist/Unionist side. Preferring to spin that the RA would not tell the truth.

Do they? In the case of just one murder, that of Jean McColville for example, did they not tell her abandoned kids that she ran off with a British soldier? Yet when her remains were accidentally discovered due to beach erosion in Co Louth decades later, and did not her post-mortem results point to torture?

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well we know that soldier F and the regiment involved in Bloody Sunday was the catalyst for the troubles. So their presence that day and the subsequent cover up sparked the whole war.

I was a boy and remember it vividly, our town on the border shut down for 3 days. My dad reckoned it changed the entire course of events, and as an Enniskillen man himself, reckoned there would be no return to normality after it. It profoundly changed the course of events and why wouldn't it in all honesty.

Wheres Me Jumper?

janfebmar wrote: »

You still have not answered the question. Of the over 300,000 of them who served in N. Ireland, what % of them do you think were killers?

i accept the vast majority of them were not murderers, but there is no question there were murderers and people who aided & abetted murder amongst their ranks.

those murderers & their accomplices should face justice, but i doubt they ever will.

that's why we disparagingly refer to it as "british justice".

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

Do they? In the case of just one murder, that of Jean McColville for example, did they not tell her abandoned kids that she ran off with a British soldier? Yet when her remains were accidentally discovered due to beach erosion in Co Louth decades later, and did not her post-mortem results point to torture?

The ICLVR have expressed satisfaction with the participation of the IRA in trying to locate the remains. Those events happened at a time of pure chaos in northern Ireland (Watch 71, which captures it well) and I don't think anyone is proud of what happened, including the British, whose PM has apologised for some of their action, under 40 years of duress mind you.

janfebmar

steddyeddy wrote: »

So their presence that day and the subsequent cover up sparked the whole war.

What happened that day escalated matters, there is no doubt about that. I think the "war" as you call it was sparked before that, and was underway for example 3 days before Bloody Sunday when the 2 policemen (one Catholic and one Protestant) were killed in Derry.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

What happened that day escalated matters, there is no doubt about that. I think the "war" as you call it was sparked before that, and was underway for example 3 days before Bloody Sunday when the 2 policemen (one Catholic and one Protestant) were killed in Derry.

So the innocent marchers deserved it, they should have known war had been declared?

Your attempts to dilute responsibility is worthy of Widgery.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

hose events happened at a time of pure chaos in northern Ireland (Watch 71, which captures it well) and I don't think anyone is proud of what happened, including the British, whose PM has apologised for some of their action, under 40 years of duress mind you.

Most law abiding people are proud of those who upheld the law and who acted within the law. Same as the Irish army and Gardai, most were law abiding.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So the innocent marchers deserved it,

No, I said earlier in the thread innocent people were killed that day. That was very wrong.

Plumbthedepths

janfebmar wrote:

Most law abiding people are proud of those who upheld the law and who acted within the law. Same as the Irish army and Gardai, most were law abiding.

So do you feel the 18 ( one deceased) Paras found by the Saville inquiry to have wrongfully killed 14 innocent people should face justice? A Yes or No without whataboutery would be a pleasant change.

FrancieBrady

janfebmar wrote: »

No, I said earlier in the thread innocent people were killed that day. That was very wrong.

So why do you continually try to dilute the crime that day and on other days. The British were the 'responsible government', their crimes were automatically infinite times bigger.

Berserker

Berserker wrote: »

It may be sullied in the eyes of the nationalist community on the northern part of island and the republican community south of the border, two communities who have questionable morals as is but the rest of the people on the island understand what it stands for. It'll be worn and celebrated with pride later this year, as usual.

Really? I'm a Republican who has never committed a single act of violence. Furthermore, I'm a Republican who condemns any and all murders, irrespective of who commits them.
If you can explain to me what exactly is morally questionable about believing a Republic is preferable to a Monarchy, I'd be interested in listening to your "logic".

As a matter of interest, will you also wear and celebrate the poppy "with pride" in the actions of those British soldiers who murdered innocent people?

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

Indeed no fewer than seventeen Presidents of America can trace their ancestry back to the 6 counties which became N. Ireland (they were " Scotch- Irish" ) .
Then of course we have Kennedy and the greatest Irishman of them all, Barack Obama.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_of_Irish_descent#Presidents
So the Irish have made a big contribution to the States.

Indeed over 23 Irish presidents. We're doing great for such a small island.