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Masks

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    #92
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Yes: valved
    blackbox wrote: »
    Me too - will also wear it if someone else in the household gets sick.

    They're only made of old t-shirts, but I reckone they will still significantly reduce the spread/inhalation of droplets.

    Not suggestiing they would be good enough for medical personnel, but must be better than nothing.

    I've made some with a pocket so I can put in a filter.


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    #93
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Yes: valved
    China has lifted the restrictions and everyone has to wear masks going out.


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    #94
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend
    Compulsory wearing masks every time when going outside in China is being decribed as one of the reasons how they manage to get ahead of the virus.

    "But masks do not help" argument is pretty old. They do. They make you concious of what you do and are a great tool how to stop people touching their mouth and pick their nose - when you are out shopping for example you may touch something which can be contaminated.


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    #95
    all about the mane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭all about the mane


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Compulsory wearing masks every time when going outside in China is being decribed as one of the reasons how they manage to get ahead of the virus.

    "But masks do not help" argument is pretty old. They do. They make you concious of what you do and are a great tool how to stop people touching their mouth and pick their nose - when you are out shopping for example you may touch something which can be contaminated.

    People touch their face more if they are wearing a mask


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    #96
    dublin99
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭dublin99


    Approximately 1 out of 4 doctors in the UK are sick or self isolating.
    Around 1 out of 5 confirmed cases in Ireland are health care workers.

    Very few healthcare workers in Hong Kong or Singapore or Macau have been infected.

    The difference is : masks are worn by everyone so it is less likely for asymptomatic or presymtomatic patients to infect healthcare workers.

    Everyone working in a hospital also wears a mask, not only those dealing directly with Covid or suspected Covid patients.

    Masks save lives:

    https://www.maskssavelives.org/?fbclid=IwAR0KelVof06IeUYkPiEC2jXh4inzYpSCmhH__JTSGRxllrpQOfvHKP38Yug


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    #97
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,429 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Yes: other
    all about the mane wrote: »
    People touch their face more if they are wearing a mask

    I find the opposite, mask and gloves and am a lot more conscious of any time my hand comes near my face and manage to stop it in time.


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    #98
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Yes: surgical
    v3imagesbinfdab37e84107990e3e6e75087526803f-w6cnjnq4joup67683u2_t1880.jpg


  • Options
    #99
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭McGiver


    No: I don't care enough
    cnocbui wrote:
    it wasn't masks I was talking about, it was the likely effectiveness of scarves.
    The same thing. Better than nothing. Stops some of the virus. Stops the physical phlegm etc.


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    #100
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Yes: valved
    I originally thought that masks were for sick people, I changed my mind. But probably won't go out buying masks because I don't like seeing doctors/nurses without them, so don't want to take them when there's already a shortage. I will be wearing masks that I've made myself. Some protection is better than nothing.


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    #101
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Away With The Fairies wrote: »
    China has lifted the restrictions and everyone has to wear masks going out.


    Yes - to prevent infected people (even if asymtomatic) spreading infection.


    There may be role for face masks now in public but only if they are promoted as a way (or even a responsibility) to help stop the spread of the infection in the community. The same way as we are told to social distance to protect others (though not everyone sees it this way).
    Telling the public a mask is to protect themselves is only likely to give a false sense of security.



    "George Gao, director-general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC):

    Q: What mistakes are other countries making?
    A: The big mistake in the U.S. and Europe, in my opinion, is that people aren’t wearing masks. This virus is transmitted by droplets and close contact. Droplets play a very important role—you’ve got to wear a mask, because when you speak, there are always droplets coming out of your mouth. Many people have asymptomatic or presymptomatic infections. If they are wearing face masks, it can prevent droplets that carry the virus from escaping and infecting others. "

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/not-wearing-masks-protect-against-coronavirus-big-mistake-top-chinese-scientist-says


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    #102
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,740 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I've seen a couple of articles suggesting that covering your mouth with something is still better than nothing. The virus may be very small but droplets expelled in coughs and sneezes are not, and reducing your overall exposure is still beneficial:

    https://twitter.com/SolNataMD/status/1244752499011092481


    https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894378441506816


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    #103
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Masks make a difference. It's basic logic here. If everyone wore one while outside around other people transmission rates would fall. The problem is supply. There aren't enough of them for those that really need them in the health service, so bodies who represent them have tried to mitigate against panic buying and hoarding so their members are protected. THe CDC in the US are pretty clear about that, as are our HSE. They're needed for frontline health workers. Korea and Germany have even banned their export to keep enough supply for their own health workers.

    This is the R0 number for the virus in the Czech Republic where they became compulsory on the 18th of March.

    679bc0cd97518aeef4134d962cbd03a4c046de3f.png

    In the Czech Republic supply issues were helped by the community starting to make their own. We could do that here. It would also help community morale.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #104
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Tucker on the issue, basically stop lying to us, it divides and causes cynicism

    https://twitter.com/maskthespread/status/1244828768813842432

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #105
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,740 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    re: supply problems, it would seem covering your mouth/nose with anything is better than nothing, I have a load of elasticated buffs I've been given at cycling events, conferences etc, might be time to dig them for shopping trips:


    https://twitter.com/jeremyphoward/status/1242894394396729344


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    #106
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,679 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    riffmongous wrote: »
    What's the actual source for that?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322931/


  • Options
    #107
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,679 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    When this dies down, I want to see every western country do an accounting of whether large quantities of PPE were bought and exported to China in January and February. I'm not talking about long standing contracts, but sudden out of the blue orders or buying up of existing stocks, particularly by resident Chinese nationals and companies who then exported them. I'll bet the 100 tonnes hosed from Australia, leaving shortages, is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The suspicion that Doctors and nurses and some citizens have likely died because of such outrageous practices, makes my blood boil.


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    #108
    machiavellianme
    Registered Users Posts: 12,400 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    cnocbui wrote: »
    When this dies down, I want to see every western country do an accounting of whether large quantities of PPE were bought and exported to China in January and February. I'm not talking about long standing contracts, but sudden out of the blue orders or buying up of existing stocks, particularly by resident Chinese nationals and companies who then exported them. I'll bet the 100 tonnes hosed from Australia, leaving shortages, is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The suspicion that Doctors and nurses and some citizens have likely died because of such outrageous practices, makes my blood boil.

    If the outbreak started in Ireland and we started placing large out of the blue orders to buy up all stock everywhere, would you have the same problem?


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    #109
    Living Off The Splash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Living Off The Splash


    Yes: homemade
    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's now compulusory in Austria to wear masks in supermarkets; you won't get in without one. Some of the Asian countries made it complusory to wear them on public transport months ago. Singapore issued 4 masks per household in January ... we get postcards..

    The authorities here told people that masks don't work.

    Couldn't agree more. Simon Harris said that he would be honest with the people of Ireland.....the fact of the matter is we don't have any masks for public use and only got masks for frontline staff at the weekend.


  • Options
    #110
    Living Off The Splash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Living Off The Splash


    Yes: homemade
    cnocbui wrote: »
    When this dies down, I want to see every western country do an accounting of whether large quantities of PPE were bought and exported to China in January and February. I'm not talking about long standing contracts, but sudden out of the blue orders or buying up of existing stocks, particularly by resident Chinese nationals and companies who then exported them. I'll bet the 100 tonnes hosed from Australia, leaving shortages, is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The suspicion that Doctors and nurses and some citizens have likely died because of such outrageous practices, makes my blood boil.

    Back in early February we went searching for P3 standard masks. The only outlets that had any were the building trade type outlets. We needed these for our son and his wife who live in China as there were none available there.

    We spent a couple of days going around the various outlets and were told that many Asian's were purchasing these to send back to family members who needed them.

    We managed to source about 30 different makes of masks and started sending parcels made up of about 5 masks every week to his address in China. Apparently some parcels were being lost in transit so we staggered the parcels being sent.

    Thankfully we held back about 10 and are now using these for ourselves.

    In the meantime our son in China has managed to source masks for us and family. We received his parcel this week.

    Every one of my family will wear a mask when we have to go to the supermarket or similar.

    We approached the Limerick company that manufactures them back in February, only to be told that all their production up to July had been sold. The question that keeps popping up in my head is "sold to who".

    The government of Ireland should be providing every household one mask per week so that one family member can use it when going to the supermarket.


  • Options
    #111
    all about the mane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭all about the mane


    gozunda wrote: »
    v3imagesbinfdab37e84107990e3e6e75087526803f-w6cnjnq4joup67683u2_t1880.jpg

    That graph has already been debunked


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    #112
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Did the weekly shop yesterday in Supervalu for my parents and i'd say 20% of people had masks and only one member of staff.


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    #113
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    all about the mane wrote: »
    That graph has already been debunked
    Indeed, the China curve for a start. However it doesn't mean the mass wearing of masks by the general public is a pointless exercise. It is demonstrably not and there are many studies on how masks reduce the spread of pathogens. They don't stop magically working at the hospital doors.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #114
    all about the mane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭all about the mane


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Indeed, the China curve for a start. However it doesn't mean the mass wearing of masks by the general public is a pointless exercise. It is demonstrably not and there are many studies on how masks reduce the spread of pathogens. They don't stop magically working at the hospital doors.

    The effect is negligible.


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    #115
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    all about the mane wrote: »
    The effect is negligible.
    How much evidence do you need or are you just parroting the HSE line unthinkingly? Are you in the health service? I note you have said you have access to masks hence the question.

    Earlier in the thread you said this:
    all about the mane wrote: »
    I have access to masks but wouldn’t wear them unless I am up close with a symptomatic covid19 person.

    OK.

    1) why would you wear one with a symptomatic individual? If their efficacy is so limited why bother?

    2) would you insist a symptomatic individual wear one? If their efficacy is so limited why bother?

    3) infected individuals are shedding virus for at least four days before becoming symptomatic. If everyone wore one while outside would their effectiveness be magically reduced in the case of asymptomatic individuals?

    4) if you are in a shop or supermarket you're close enough with members of the public and you have no clue which ones may be asymptomatic carriers.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #116
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    all about the mane wrote: »
    The effect is negligible.

    Not if someone coughs or sneezes it's not. You do know this right?

    Like iv'e said before once there is enough supply for everyone they will become mandatory for all citizens when leaving the home here.


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    #117
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    On the effect is negligible in community settings here is a much cited research paper on the SARS epidemic. To save clicking fingers here are the conclusions.

    Most cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have occurred in close contacts of SARS patients. However, in Beijing, a large proportion of SARS cases occurred in persons without such contact. We conducted a case-control study in Beijing that compared exposures of 94 unlinked, probable SARS patients with those of 281 community-based controls matched for age group and sex. Case-patients were more likely than controls to have chronic medical conditions or to have visited fever clinics (clinics at which possible SARS patients were separated from other patients), eaten outside the home, or taken taxis frequently. The use of masks was strongly protective. Among 31 case-patients for whom convalescent-phase (>21 days) sera were available, 26% had immunoglobulin G to SARS-associated coronavirus. Our finding that clinical SARS was associated with visits to fever clinics supports Beijing’s strategy of closing clinics with poor infection-control measures. Our finding that mask use lowered the risk for disease supports the community’s use of this strategy.

    Researchers tend to avoid words like "strongly protective" unless clear unambiguous evidence is found.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    We managed to source about 30 different makes of masks and started sending parcels made up of about 5 masks every week to his address in China. Apparently some parcels were being lost in transit so we staggered the parcels being sent.

    I wouldn't publicly boast about bulk-buying masks in Ireland and sending to China.

    Chinese nationals living here were doing this in droves in Jan/Feb. That's why there was none available when we needed them.


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    #119
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,679 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    machiavellianme wrote: »
    If the outbreak started in Ireland and we started placing large out of the blue orders to buy up all stock everywhere, would you have the same problem?

    Yes.


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    #120
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭Manion


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wouldn't publicly boast about bulk-buying masks in Ireland and sending to China.

    Chinese nationals living here were doing this in droves in Jan/Feb. That's why there was none available when we needed them.

    Who is we and who is them in this instance? People were buying masks in January and February to send to their families in China. It's what any decent person would do and if you say you wouldn't have done the same, then I don't believe you.

    The only reason we have masks and respirators in our household is because we had family members who were in china at the time of the outbreak warn us of the reality. The people who bought at the start of the year had a real need for them and it's not like you didn't have access to world news. You choose not to buy them because you decided this wouldn't affect you. Don't blame others for your own life choices. You're not entitled for these things to be held in reserve for you until such time as you decided to take things seriously.

    btw: I posted in work letting all my colleagues know I was buying respirators and they should do the same. I also told all my friends. No one did what I did. I think most thought I was a reactionary nut job and others felt "sure they do nothing anyway". No one is laughing now.


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    #121
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Manion wrote: »
    others felt "sure they do nothing anyway".
    Sadly too many still believe this and our own HSE isn't helping.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



This discussion has been closed.
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