When will the college degree 'bubble' burst?

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 10:01am

FTA69 wrote: »

Lol Range Rover and Porsche, couldn’t think of two bigger twat models of car if I tried. Imagine having your chest puffed out over two youngones working in a coffee shop having gone to college.

why did you assume they were women ?

gmisk · 16-10-2020 10:03am

I think a college degree in a related and practical area to role you work in will always be useful.
There are a lot of nonsense degrees out there. Which are definitely a waste of time and they seem to be growing in number.
I did a bsc hons in computer science, it was hugely practical, I went onto do a masters in a related area. I have found them both really useful and its pretty hard to progress in some areas of work without specific qualifications.

gmisk · 16-10-2020 10:07am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why did you assume they were women ?

I don't think that poster did? I think they just said two young ones? That could be male or female probably?

FTA69 · 16-10-2020 10:07am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why did you assume they were women ?

There was me thinking you were anti the auld wokeness.

JimmyVik · 16-10-2020 10:09am

I have a nice sciency degree that i used to get me my job.
I think I am doing very well in it, and I wouldnt have got that without the degree.

Ive worked on many building sites with my brothers and my Dad on houses we bought and renovated together as side projects. Not able for it. Im much better at pointing than grafting

I couldnt get a job as a Barista.
I probably wouldnt get a job driving a train or a bus or a luas.
Horses for courses.

But something thats always bothered me.
I know a lot of people who have gone back to college in their late 20s early 30s.
Why do they always seem to do psychology? At least 90% of them that i know of do psychology when going back to uni.

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 10:12am

gmisk wrote: »

I don't think that poster did? I think they just said two young ones? That could be male or female probably?

a 'young wan' 'young one' would usually be slang to refer to a woman. If I'm mistaken then fair, in this case one of the lads behind the counter was definitely older than I was. I know not everyone wants to achieve as highly in their career but having a masters and working minimum wage in your mid 30s just doesn't sit right, he was sold a dream by career guidance teachers and a university when they should have realistically said 'this masters probably won't pay the bills'

the purple tin · 16-10-2020 10:13am

It's like Tom Baker said on the American version of Little Britain 'Before going to work at Starbucks, many Americans like to spend four years at college' :pac:

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 10:14am

JimmyVik wrote: »

I have a nice sciency degree that i used to get me my job.
I think I am doing very well in it, and I wouldnt have got that without the degree.

Ive worked on many building sites with my brothers and my Dad on houses we bought and renovated together as side projects. Not able for it. Im much better at pointing than grafting
I couldnt get a job as a Barista.
I probably wouldnt get a job driving a train or a bus or a luas.
Horses for courses.

But something thats always bothered me.
I know a lot of people who have gone back to college in their late 20s early 30s.
Why do they always seem to do psychology? At least 90% of them that i know of do psychology when going back to uni.

this, I've noticed this too, its the most over subscribed degree program I can think of, theres few career prospects in it relative to the amount of people qualified. I think its the most official/high ranking sounding arts degree so they can chat crap at parties about having it.

mariaalice · 16-10-2020 10:15am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id imagine not well, leaving those staff with degrees and masters out of pocket.

Degree inflation has really become a big issue these days, I think its sad that students are being told its the only path to success.

We need a robust strategy of welcoming more apprenticeships and not seeing it as a lesser way to go after school than college. We also need to start telling students that they're better off picking a degree with good career prospects rather than just giving colleges money for the ever longer list of 'passion project' degrees out there.

But also train kids in school in basic business skills and entrepreneurship, the way forward isn't always third level and I know myself I just wasted two years of my life in college because it was the done thing, not because it was what I wanted to do.

Luck and head down hard work, play the biggest part and personality does play a large part too.

Or else how come two individuals do some construction apprenticeship they are making a fortune working self-employed, one ends up a small property developer and does very well for themselves one partied and has very little.

They both have the same qualifications.

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 10:19am

mariaalice wrote: »

Luck and head down hard work, play the biggest part and personality does play a large part too.

Or else how come two individuals do some construction apprenticeship they are making a fortune working self-employed, one ends up a small property developer and does very well for themselves one partied and has very little.

They both have the same qualifications.

exactly. But nobody tells students that, the prospectus just says 'do a psychology degree , heres an example of somebody who did who now makes 60k a year and has a fancy title , guidance councillors 'you have to do a degree to not end up stacking shelves' , These people need to be honest with these kids and say 'here this is only a piece of paper that is helpful most of the time, required for a few things but you're still going to have to get experience, do professional certs and work quite hard to achieve the 'prospectus quoted sallary'

thomas 123 · 16-10-2020 10:20am

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Nowadays, people are still living with mommy and daddy up until 30. And the competition for jobs is enormous even with a degree.

I think you will find that is more to do with inflation and the lack of rise in wages to meet inflation, mostly in the prices of houses and land.

I see sheep · 16-10-2020 10:23am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anyone doing a gender studies/equality etc.. degree is only hurting their job opportunities, getting a non stem degree wont help you for anything anymore.

That said myself and the owner of a dublin coffee shop chain did have a laugh one day in one of the stores, talking with the staff and one of them had a masters in journalism, another a psychology degree, myself and himself without degrees, we laughed and drank coffee and left in our range rover and Porsche respectively.

Dickhead

PommieBast · 16-10-2020 10:35am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Degree inflation has really become a big issue these days, I think its sad that students are being told its the only path to success.

Dunno how things developed in Ireland but in my own country the policy of getting 50% of people into uni simply resulted in degree results being used as a HR tool for thinning out piles of CVs. I did CS for my first degree but my guess is that about half of us already had enough programming experience to go straight into industry.

galway_cowboy · 16-10-2020 10:39am

Too many people are being funneled into college. There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning a trade/apprecenticship etc etc. But then that doesn't swell the universities coffers nor play well with Government expectations of a "smart economy".

16-10-2020 10:41am

Tisn't easy for graduates when employers are looking for twenty years experience. Experience will always triumph over a degree.

A lot of jobs grossly overstate their difficulty.

aero2k · 16-10-2020 10:44am

Mules wrote: »

There's also a thing in Ireland where a degree is considered better than learning a trade, so maybe there's a bit of snobbery there too. It makes no sense to me.

That's always bothered me, along with the assumption (I'm talking late 70's early 80's) that less academically inclined kids should be sent to the "tech" with an apprenticeship as a follow-on while the rest went to the convent or CBS and on to university, or maybe into the civil service.

In many European countries, having a trade is much more appreciated than here - the title of master carpenter would be as prestigious as teacher, engineer or scientist. In Germany I believe there are over 600 different apprenticeships. I visited one medium sized company a few years back and they had partnered with a local college to develop qualifications specific to their workplace which were a mix of practical and theory. Seemed like an eminently sensible approach.

That said I think education can be incredibly valuable - there's no harm in doing a degree for it's own sake if you can afford it. Expecting a piece of paper to be a passport to riches and an easy life can backfire though.

BrianD3 · 16-10-2020 10:45am

It should be obvious that the more people that have degrees, the less valuable a degree becomes and that it may be wise for an individual to consider not playing the education arms race game.

The most valuable degrees are those for which there are barriers to entry, that lead to professional status or are a legal requirement to work in a particular area. i.e. pharmacy, medicine, veterinary, dentistry.

Things are a bit more open now but it's not too long ago that there was one pharmacy degree in Ireland with 50 places each year. There were also various rules designed to protect the status and income of the profession e.g. not being allowed to open a pharmacy within a certain distance of an existing one and legally discriminating against graduates from UK institutions

Degrees in software eng/computer application etc. can currently lead to good careers but which are subject to the influence of globalisation and the free market.

Other STEM areas - I am a scientist and would not encourage anyone to do a science degree in the areas of chemistry, physics or biology I have done fairly well for myself but know far too many good people who have struggled for years. There is a huge amount of hyped up bulls*t in the media from vested interests (IBEC, the universities, the pharma industry) regarding STEM degrees and careers. Then you have the university professors on 100k+ who think something like Biochemistry is a great degree/career and are too stupid/detached/blinkered to consider their own survivorship bias or to consider that the world may be very different now than when they completed their PhD..

Mules · 16-10-2020 10:46am

What I don't get is why there's such a big push to get women in to stem subjects. There isn't the same push to get men in to nursing and teaching. What's the problem with people doing what they are interested in. Sometime people's interests do confirm to gender stereotypes.

I know a woman who was very ambitious for her daughters, she had them all do engineering and they hated it. They retrained to become teachers and doctors.

Mules · 16-10-2020 10:49am

That's another thing about a psychology degree. You need it to become a psychologist. Although lots of people dont go on to the the phd and you need that too.

gmisk · 16-10-2020 11:01am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

a 'young wan' 'young one' would usually be slang to refer to a woman. If I'm mistaken then fair, in this case one of the lads behind the counter was definitely older than I was. I know not everyone wants to achieve as highly in their career but having a masters and working minimum wage in your mid 30s just doesn't sit right, he was sold a dream by career guidance teachers and a university when they should have realistically said 'this masters probably won't pay the bills'

Ah ok I had no idea tbh thought it was just a slang term for a younger person.
I agree with what your saying tbh.
Little point in working your ass off not to mention the cost to get a degree and masters and be working a minimum wage job

JustAThought · 16-10-2020 11:04am

Most banks, multinationls and big brand names have as a requirement a degree to
get in the door. Many have a
‘milkround’ system where a wide variety of degrees are welcome and open doors to be trained for a role or grant access to management training programmes. Without a dergree all
these options are doors shut against you for life.

Being educated in Ireland and paying your way os very different to in the US where the annual fees are astronomical and by the time you finish could be the equivalent of having bought a house - so there is a big difference. Not so in Canada -
that generalisation dosn’t work.

As for buying your way into a private college Mr F or going the points race or doing nothing and touting a cv with the LC on it door to door for years - the choice is yours unless you have a specific skill and the knack to set
up a tax and HR compliant business and run it legally, learn a trade for 4 or 5 years, or open your own innovative business.

But I would say I look back on my college
days as being amongst my happiest - its a far cry from the pressure of school.
A university eduation is more than learning a business skill and the scope of people I met, subjects and ideas I was exposed to, opportunities I had and great people from all walks of life I met and became friends with will stay with me forever. I firmly believe that everyone regardless of points should have the experience of at least a year at a college or learning and exploring something they might love or be good at - whatever that is.

IMO 18 is too young after the awful study pressure year of the leaving cert to go into the harsh adult world of 9-5 offices and control, office politics, political correctness and corporate obedience - or more likely to be left beeping a till or sticking a warehouse with 40 year
olds who have totally different life perspective
and cynicism and life bitterness/status.

And while we cintinue to
open the doors of Iteland, easy visa -visa free, to the world we will continue to be competing not only with each other and our own degrees for
jobs but now are competing with people and degrees and experiences from all over the world to get the same foot in the door and starter business job - it is not going to get any easier. sadly. In america your degree might cost you 100k - but you have o good chance theouhh their protection policies on the workforce
of being able to recoup that through fair national
competition to get a job - in Ireland the degree may be ‘only’ 3k a
year for an undegraduate of Trinity or DCU but our government is now allowing access to
these undergrad starter jobs to basically anyone with a degree on the planet - not exactly a fair playing field.

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2020 11:07am

I'm in my thirties and considering a career change. Frankly, it's depressing seeing so many jobs where retraining would mean returning to University and the tens of thousands worth of debt that it entails.

Vocational training really needs to be better thought of and hugely expanded as a lot of adults are going to need it once automation starts happening on a grander scale.

John Hutton · 16-10-2020 11:07am

In my opinion one of the major problems with college is that it is nearly all solely geared towards "jobs" rather than forming rounded, knowledgable citizens. I don't see why we cant have a system where you do a degree in what you want, then do a year long "practical" masters type thing directly geared towards the type of job you want, with work experience etc, practical IT skill certs etc.

So say I do a degree in business, and decide I want to work in financial services. I then get funnelled into a year long financial services practical training course.

But as things stand I would recommend STEM, or Law (great idea even if you don't go down the route of being a barrister or solicitor, most businesses would look at a a law degree as an advantage )

JustAThought · 16-10-2020 11:18am

John Hutton wrote: »

In my opinion one of the major problems with college is that it is nearly all solely geared towards "jobs" rather than forming rounded, knowledgable citizens. I don't see why we cant have a system where you do a degree in what you want, then do a year long "practical" masters type thing directly geared towards the type of job you want, with work experience etc, practical IT skill certs etc.

So say I do a degree in business, and decide I want to work in financial services. I then get funnelled into a year long financial services practical training course.

But as things stand I would recommend STEM, or Law (great idea even if you don't go down the route of being a barrister or solicitor, most businesses would look at a a law degree as an advantage )

We have a system
where you can specialise - postgrad
or masters - buy I agree in principle with you - you can’t easily do generalised languages or science and then easily transition to do physio or medicine - which is ironic as it is your LC which compromises a mix of languages, history, sciences etc that allows you build the points to get
into that as an undergrad! Funny how it is allowed age 18 but not aged 21!

Some European countries still have the old classical system of education where a well
rounded person with multiple strains of knowledge is the desired end result - they study languages, history, geography, maths, the sciences, astrology, the environment, and do modules in personal
wellbeing and fitness (PR) as well as skills like cooking and nutrition. Then they choose what to study in college but even if they don’t they have a much broader skill base for life than outs where we are narrowing the field and perspective day by day.

You can see now with the state
funded second ‘degree’ courses that they do not allow you typically
to cross over subjects and do a masters postgrad in science ( eg environmental science) if your original degree was finance, or food technology if your original degree was law - for funding they are still thinking in fixed boxes and narrow paths based on what you thought or chosen when you were 18. Its the narrow mindedness and waste of it that galls - thinking like 1950’s Ireland in 2020
when the world and pace and freedoms make it a very different place.

Eric Cartman · 16-10-2020 11:22am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm in my thirties and considering a career change. Frankly, it's depressing seeing so many jobs where retraining would mean returning to University and the tens of thousands worth of debt that it entails.

Vocational training really needs to be better thought of and hugely expanded as a lot of adults are going to need it once automation starts happening on a grander scale.

The ramp up to a career change here now is expensive and time consuming , professional certs or a 1 year course should suffice for a lot of transitions

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2020 11:23am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The ramp up to a career change here now is expensive and time consuming , professional certs or a 1 year course should suffice for a lot of transitions

That's decent news. A one year course would be fine. Four years and University again would sap my will to life along with my savings.

JustAThought · 16-10-2020 11:26am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The ramp up to a career change here now is expensive and time consuming , professional certs or a 1 year course should suffice for a lot of transitions

Yes in principle but I remember asking my
chiropracter what his training was
and how he got into it and he told
me he did a degree in food science and an add on year course - I got
out of there quickly and went to a doctor and got a scan! Noone going to be cracking my bones and bending up my body when there are qualified people with 6 years starter experience to choose from!!!

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2020 11:27am

JustAThought wrote: »

Yes in principle but I remember asking my
chiropracter what his training was
and how he got into it and he told
me he did a degree in food science and an add on year course - I got
out of there quickly and went to a doctor and got a scan! Noone going to be cracking my bones and bending up my body when there are qualified people with 6 years starter experience to choose from!!!

For myself, I was thinking more about something in the financial services sector, IT or something similar. I wouldn't want a doctor or a dentist who'd qualified by a one-year FETAC (if that's still going on) course.

aero2k · 16-10-2020 11:28am

Some of it is down to lazy recruiting too. 1000 applications for a job - let's throw the ones with no degree in the bin. Still too many? We'll accept masters only.

I know someone who, many years ago, had been seconded into a fairly demanding role on a temporary basis. In a meeting to decide on the requirements for a permanent replacement, when someone suggested a degree was a must, all present were in a state of shock when the incumbent announced that they didn't have a degree.

My first job after college did have a degree as a minimum entry standard, however a wide range of science/technology degrees were acceptable, They just wanted to see evidence of being able to handle technical information - they sent us to boot camp for 3 months to teach us how to actually do the job.

Just noticing post #45 above with a similar sentiment.

TomTomTim · 16-10-2020 11:28am

John Hutton wrote: »

In my opinion one of the major problems with college is that it is nearly all solely geared towards "jobs" rather than forming rounded, knowledgable citizens. I don't see why we cant have a system where you do a degree in what you want, then do a year long "practical" masters type thing directly geared towards the type of job you want, with work experience etc, practical IT skill certs etc.

So say I do a degree in business, and decide I want to work in financial services. I then get funnelled into a year long financial services practical training course.

But as things stand I would recommend STEM, or Law (great idea even if you don't go down the route of being a barrister or solicitor, most businesses would look at a a law degree as an advantage )

As a recent law graduate with a good average score, I'm not seeing the worth of it as it stands. There is hardly any entry level legal jobs at the minute. Maybe it's purely a matter of how the market is at this minute, but getting a legal job at the moment seems like a tough task. If everything continues as is, I'll be seriously considering an apprenticeship in another field.

When will the college degree 'bubble' burst?

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