Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

penny piper · 30-03-2021 12:13pm

The state of minnieapolis allows the technique of knee to neck restraint....it's perfectly acceptable for police officers to use deadly force if a suspect presents imminent danger....chauvin was resisting arrest in the car....compressing of a person's neck to one or either side is allowed by neck/leg as long as there is no direct pressure to the trachea/airway...it's allowed in order to control someone with light to moderate compression or with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying direct pressure...the latter act is only allowed to protect police officer's lives with a suspect who is actively agressive and cannot be controlled by lesser methods....
His lawyer was terrible with the first few witnesses....the second witness who couldn't seemed very unreliable for the state....he gave up questioning her so quickly....

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Both those posters were calling for a fair trial, for all evidence to be heard and people not to be prejudiced because of the BLM mob.

What part of that do you disagree with?

I think the possibility of a fair trial is close to 0. he is a white police officer. Practically a get out of jail free card in the US. if it wasn't captured on film it wouldn't have got anywhere near a court.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Both those posters were calling for a fair trial, for all evidence to be heard and people not to be prejudiced because of the BLM mob.

What part of that do you disagree with?

Presumably all of it, as they want chauvin convicted by the mob.

seamus · 30-03-2021 12:15pm

ELM327 wrote: »

You or I have no idea what the fentanyl and other drugs would have done to his system.

Dodging the question I see. Because you know that the autopsies all conclude that he died from compression to the neck as a primary factor, with narcotics in his system a potential contributing factor.

Therefore we go back to my original assertion: Floyd was killed by Chauvin kneeling on his neck. That is basically a legal fact unless the defence tries to convince the jury that the doctors were all incorrect.

So, the fentanyl is for now, irrelevant. Floyd's history of drug abuse is for now, irrelevant.

The question is whether Chauvin's action of kneeling on Floyd's neck was reasonable and proportionate. And therefore whether the killing was murder or accident.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:15pm

penny piper wrote: »

The state of minnieapolis allows the technique of knee to neck restraint....it's perfectly acceptable for police officers to use deadly force if a suspect presents imminent danger....chauvin was resisting arrest in the car....compressing of a person's neck to one or either side is allowed by neck/leg as long as there is no direct pressure to the trachea/airway...it's allowed in order to control someone with light to moderate compression or with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying direct pressure...the latter act is only allowed to protect police officer's lives with a suspect who is actively agressive and cannot be controlled by lesser methods....

he was lying on the ground with his hands handcuffed. there were other police officers next to him. what imminent danger did he present?

30-03-2021 12:16pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I think the possibility of a fair trial is close to 0. he is a white police officer. Practically a get out of jail free card in the US. if it wasn't captured on film it wouldn't have got anywhere near a court.

I completely disagree with you and think that he won't get a fair trial BECAUSE he is a white police officer. He's practically been found guilty before any evidence for his defence was submitted.

pjohnson · 30-03-2021 12:16pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I think the possibility of a fair trial is close to 0. he is a white police officer. Practically a get out of jail free card in the US. if it wasn't captured on film it wouldn't have got anywhere near a court.

Just look at the Martens case officers/agents are above the law.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:17pm

seamus wrote: »

Dodging the question I see. Because you know that the autopsies all conclude that he died from compression to the neck as a primary factor, with narcotics in his system a potential contributing factor.

Therefore we go back to my original assertion: Floyd was killed because Chauvin was kneeling on his neck. That is basically a legal fact unless the defence tries to convince the jury that the doctors were all incorrect.

So, the fentanyl is for now, irrelevant. Floyd's history of drug abuse is for now, irrelevant.

The question is whether Chauvin's action of kneeling on Floyd's neck was reasonable and proportionate. And therefore whether the killing was murder or accident.

I did not dodge the question, I answered it.
I believe he was likely to have suffered a cardiac event as he had swallowed all of the narcotics he was carrying when the police arrived so as not to be caught.

As the state of MN advises officers (at the time) that neck to knee was an acceptable restraint to use I do not see a conviction happening.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I completely disagree with you and think that he won't get a fair trial BECAUSE he is a white police officer. He's practically been found guilty before any evidence for his defence was submitted.

+100000 to this.
White guilt assigned by the BLM mob and the white knights play a big factor here.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he was lying on the ground with his hands handcuffed. there were other police officers next to him. what imminent danger did he present?

You can't look at that in isolation. Look at his actions across the timeline and you see what danger he presented.
He resisted several times.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I completely disagree with you and think that he won't get a fair trial BECAUSE he is a white police officer. He's practically been found guilty before any evidence for his defence was submitted.

but he won't be found guilty. you can bet money on that.

penny piper · 30-03-2021 12:19pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he was lying on the ground with his hands handcuffed. there were other police officers next to him. what imminent danger did he present?

I presume they/he made that decision based on what had already happened ..maybe in the car who knows.....

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:19pm

ELM327 wrote: »

+100000 to this.
White guilt assigned by the BLM mob and the white knights play a big factor here.

You can't look at that in isolation. Look at his actions across the timeline and you see what danger he presented.
He resisted several times.

you can. you can look at the 9 minute span where he presented no imminent danger and chauvin continued to kneel on his neck.

30-03-2021 12:20pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but he won't be found guilty. you can bet money on that.

I have no idea. When all the evidence has been presented, I'll hopefully be clearer as to what happened.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:20pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but he won't be found guilty. you can bet money on that.

Because he is not guilty IMO of murder 2. Not because of his race or job.

Nozebleed · 30-03-2021 12:20pm

court tv have a you tube channel if anyone wants to get the facts.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea. When all the evidence has been presented, I'll hopefully be clearer as to what happened.

Agree. But on the currently available evidence it is pretty clear he is not guilty. Certainly of the charges levied.
They should have gone for a lower charge.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:21pm

penny piper wrote: »

I presume they/he made that decision based on what had already happened ..maybe in the car who knows.....

that argument doesn't hold water.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no idea. When all the evidence has been presented, I'll hopefully be clearer as to what happened.

we know what happened.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:22pm

Nozebleed wrote: »

court tv have a you tube channel if anyone wants to get the facts.

Live on youtube coverage too across all major networks, Fox, CNN etc, as well as on Sky channel 524. I have it on in the background (well, afternoon our time anyway) while I'm working. The joys of working from home!

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:22pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we know what happened.

Why bother with the trial so.

Quantum Erasure · 30-03-2021 12:22pm

Nozebleed wrote: »

court tv have a you tube channel if anyone wants to get the facts.

Facts? We've no need for facts here

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:22pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree. But on the currently available evidence it is pretty clear he is not guilty. Certainly of the charges levied.
They should have gone for a lower charge.

It is normal practice to prosecute a higher charge but giving the jury the option of finding them guilty of a lesser charge.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:23pm

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Facts? We've no need for facts here

White man guilty. ACAB.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:23pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Presumably all of it, as they want chauvin convicted by the mob.

Exactly what I spoke about early in the thread. Wow!

30-03-2021 12:23pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we know what happened.

There's plenty of facts that I am not privy to. I won't be making up my mind until I've seen them

LessOutragePlz · 30-03-2021 12:23pm

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Facts? We've no need for facts here

Yeah all the lawyers and legal experts are clearly in this thread:rolleyes:

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:23pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Why bother with the trial so.

we know the facts. it is up to the jury to decide where those facts sit in the legal framework that applies in that jurisdiction.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:24pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is normal practice to prosecute a higher charge but giving the jury the option of finding them guilty of a lesser charge.

IMO based on current evidence, something like involuntary manslaughter could be an option, but certainly murder 2 is not realistic.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There's plenty of facts that I am not privy to. I won't be making up my mind until I've seen them

really? what facts are you unsure about and how are they relevant?

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:24pm

ELM327 wrote: »

White man guilty. ACAB.

Do you dispute the findings of the autopsies? If so, why?

Muahahaha · 30-03-2021 12:25pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Let's see what the jury decide. Suffice it to say I agree to disagree with you on this one.

So why do you think that Chavin needed to put his knee on his neck for over 9 minutes, what purpose did it serve? Put it this way if you were in Floyds place and were face down on the ground, arms behind your back and wrists handcuffed do you think you could 1) get up to your feet and 2) outrun a cop, an armed one no less, whilst in handcuffs? What threat did Floyd pose to police in the position he was in, completely disabled and handcuffed? Bar spitting at them I cant see any threat

Nozebleed wrote: »

is the trial being televised? any links??

Court TV are live streaming it when its on, still early morning there so its probably not started yet
https://www.courttv.com/news/how-to-watch-chauvin-death-of-george-floyd-murder-trial/

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:25pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Exactly what I spoke about early in the thread. Wow!

Yes yes, you've placed a trigger on the word mob.
What would you like to call the groups of protestors that have already decided that officer chauvin is guilty?

KeepItLight · 30-03-2021 12:25pm

I've been choked before. The scariest thing about it is that I couldn't say anything because no air was being passed though my throat, so I'm doubting he was actually choked to death if he could say "I can't breathe" repeatedly. I'm sure the debate about the actual cause of death will be front and center of this trial and the sentencing. Manslaughter sounds about right.

Eric Cartman · 30-03-2021 12:25pm

Talk of lightening restrictions on protests today here. I have a feeling we’re in for a BLM superspreader event in dublin based on the outcome of this.... that late inclusion is awfully coincidental.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:26pm

ELM327 wrote: »

IMO based on current evidence, something like involuntary manslaughter could be an option,

So you admit Chavin killed Floyd.

No imaginary job needed!

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:26pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

So why would you think that Chavin needed to put his knee on his neck for over 9 minutes, what purpose did it serve? Put it this way if you were in Floyds place and were face down on the ground, arms behind your back and wrists handcuffed do you think you could 1) get up to your feet and 2) outrun a cop, an armed one no less, whilst in handcuffs?

If I had a 6 inch and 50 lb advantage over the cop, after resisting already, and off my face on narcotics, I'd rate my chances highly of getting to my feet and resisting some more.

30-03-2021 12:26pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

really? what facts are you unsure about and how are they relevant?

I won't know until the defence and prosecution present their evidence.

That's the point of a trial isn't it?

It would be profoundly ridiculous to assume I knew everything that is going to be presented.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:27pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Talk of lightening restrictions on protests today here. I have a feeling we’re in for a BLM superspreader event in dublin based on the outcome of this.... that late inclusion is awfully coincidental.

jeez, talk about paranoid. the irish government decide to lift restrictions just because a trial has started in a different jurisdiction. I know you normally post nonsense but that is exceptional.

seamus · 30-03-2021 12:27pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I did not dodge the question, I answered it.
I believe he was likely to have suffered a cardiac event as he had swallowed all of the narcotics he was carrying when the police arrived so as not to be caught.

Right so. You believe that you, an (unqualified?) individual several thousand KM away from the incident and with access only to third-hand reports of the situation, have sufficient insight into the case to dispute the findings of the medical professionals who performed autopsies and toxicology reports on Floyd?

Can you see how crazy that sounds?

Christy42 · 30-03-2021 12:28pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

I've been choked before. The scariest thing about it is that I couldn't say anything because no air was being passed though my throat, so I'm doubting he was actually choked to death if he could say "I can't breathe" repeatedly. I'm sure the debate about the actual cause of death will be front and center of this trial and the sentencing. Manslaughter sounds about right.

Given we have 2 autopsy reports giving the cause of death it seems likely they will be believed as the cause of death. Unless someone takes issue with how they were performed.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:28pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

So you admit Chavin killed Floyd.

No imaginary job needed!

"Killed" is a term that may or may not imply intent.

What happened is clearly a man died, another man took an action directly before his death, and could have somewhat contributed to the death

That to me is an involuntary consequence of an act not intended to cause what it did, and an act in line with MN police policy at the time.

Involuntary manslaughter is the most that officer chauvin could be guilty of.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:28pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

I've been choked before. The scariest thing about it is that I couldn't say anything because no air was being passed though my throat, so I'm doubting he was actually choked to death if he could say "I can't breathe" repeatedly. I'm sure the debate about the actual cause of death will be front and center of this trial and the sentencing. Manslaughter sounds about right.

doubt all you want but you're wrong.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:30pm

ELM327 wrote: »

"Killed" is a term that may or may not imply intent.

What happened is clearly a man died, another man took an action directly before his death, and could have somewhat contributed to the death

That to me is an involuntary consequence of an act not intended to cause what it did, and an act in line with MN police policy at the time.

Involuntary manslaughter is the most that officer chauvin could be guilty of.

Yes, so you agree that Mr Chavin killed Mr Floyd.

He should go to prison for it.

Mins or no mobs

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:30pm

seamus wrote: »

Right so. You believe that you, an (unqualified?) individual several thousand KM away from the incident and with access only to third-hand reports of the situation, have sufficient insight into the case to dispute the findings of the medical professionals who performed autopsies and toxicology reports on Floyd?

Can you see how crazy that sounds?

I am , like probably 100% of posters on this thread, "an (unqualified?) individual several thousand KM away from the incident and with access only to third-hand reports of the situation,"

I see fit to form an opinion based on first and third hand reports , same as everyone else. The fact that my opinion differs to yours is fine, and frankly based on your posting history is to be expected.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:31pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yes, so you agree that Mr Chavin killed Mr Floyd.

He should go to prison for it.

Mins or no mobs

I would be satisfied that an involuntary manslaughter charge, which carries a 6-8yr term AFAIK, is a harsh but fair application of the law.

If I were officer Chauvin, I would be aggrieved as I felt I followed the guidelines and training I was given.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:32pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Do you dispute the findings of the autopsies? If so, why?

The autopsies were clearly done based on the facts available at the time.

Death during police detention.

osarusan · 30-03-2021 12:33pm

I can see how it could be argued that he is justified in initially using his knee to restrain Floyd when he was conscious and agressive and dangerous, but I can't see how the defence can argue that continuing to restrain him in that manner even after he presented no imminent threat (because he was not even conscious) is still justified rather than reckless.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:33pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I am , like probably 100% of posters on this thread, "an (unqualified?) individual several thousand KM away from the incident and with access only to third-hand reports of the situation,"

I see fit to form an opinion based on first and third hand reports , same as everyone else. The fact that my opinion differs to yours is fine, and frankly based on your posting history is to be expected.

that your opinion is different to other posters here is not the issue. Your opinion also differs from the medical experts who performed the two autopsies. can you explain how you formed that opinion?

KeepItLight · 30-03-2021 12:33pm

Christy42 wrote: »

Given we have 2 autopsy reports giving the cause of death it seems likely they will be believed as the cause of death. Unless someone takes issue with how they were performed.

Several media publications incl. New York Times and Washington Post seem to concur that the trial will center on proving the cause of death.

KeepItLight · 30-03-2021 12:34pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

doubt all you want but you're wrong.

based on what, your intuition? The trial is still ongoing in case you haven't noticed. Or are you just trying to be snarky?

Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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