Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

optimal · 07-11-2018 11:02pm

DesperateDan wrote: »

I'm going to try and find someone to install a Zappi based on what I'm hearing here on boards it's worth it even without a solar right now.

None of the other chargers seem to have this load balancing so paying a bit more is worth it. An extra priority switch install seems to be a good €100. Can anyone recommend any Zappi installers?

Any competent electrician should be able to install this, there’s no magic needed.

Batesy · 07-11-2018 11:06pm

I bought last November so not eligible for a grant so looking to get one installed as cheap as possible.

If one was to buy all the materials for the install and just ask a sparks to install what would I need?
The distance from my fuse board is approx 20ft and there is no electric shower to contend with.

1. Zappi
2. 20ft 6mm2 cable?
3. ???

What else?
Would a sparks not have all the required cabling / trunking etc?

DesperateDan · 07-11-2018 11:20pm

optimal wrote: »

Any competent electrician should be able to install this, there’s no magic needed.

I think any electrician around here is going to look at me like an alien if I tell them I need a Zappi and I need it to not require a priority switch, and I need to stick it at the other side of the house :pac:

Will ring around the local ones tomorrow though but it does sound like a lot less hassle to find someone that just knows what they are doing.

Batesy · 07-11-2018 11:25pm

I think even electricians who have never installed one have the misconception that it's more complicated than it actually is.

n97 mini · 08-11-2018 1:36am

DesperateDan wrote: »

None of the other chargers seem to have this load balancing so paying a bit more is worth it.

Evbox
SmartEVSE
OpenEVSE

There are probably others too. YMMV depending on requirements.

I've an OpenEVSE, which can be sent RAPI commands to adjust charge current.

deadduck · 08-11-2018 9:48am

Hi all,

Possibly a silly question, but if I source a 2nd hand charger and parts (RCBO and wiring) for approx €300, and a sparks say charges €200 for final fitting and sign off, he’ll only bill me the €200 and that’s all my grant will cover, correct. Because if he was to bill me €500 to cover me for his labour (and my parts) he’d be liable for Tax on the €500, which he didn’t receive. What am I missing here? it seems if you’re eligible for the grant, sourcing parts yourself (second hand) makes no sense?

jarrieta · 08-11-2018 10:22am

deadduck wrote: »

Hi all,

Possibly a silly question, but if I source a 2nd hand charger and parts (RCBO and wiring) for approx €300, and a sparks say charges €200 for final fitting and sign off, he’ll only bill me the €200 and that’s all my grant will cover, correct. Because if he was to bill me €500 to cover me for his labour (and my parts) he’d be liable for Tax on the €500, which he didn’t receive. What am I missing here? it seems if you’re eligible for the grant, sourcing parts yourself (second hand) makes no sense?

The application form has two separate fields for electrician charges and others iirc (might be components), so he can fill his charges and you the charger and parts in the other field, and both will be covered

deadduck · 08-11-2018 10:41am

jarrieta wrote: »

The application form has two separate fields for electrician charges and others iirc (might be components), so he can fill his charges and you the charger and parts in the other field, and both will be covered

Cool, thanks for the info and the speedy reply

jarrieta · 08-11-2018 10:56am

deadduck wrote: »

Cool, thanks for the info and the speedy reply

Btw you should apply and receive the letter before doing anything, so do it as soon as you can for your peace of mind, then you will be able to see how the form looks like

https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/electric-vehicle-home-charger-grant/

denismc · 08-11-2018 11:34am

Batesy wrote: »

I bought last November so not eligible for a grant so looking to get one installed as cheap as possible.

If one was to buy all the materials for the install and just ask a sparks to install what would I need?
The distance from my fuse board is approx 20ft and there is no electric shower to contend with.

1. Zappi
2. 20ft 6mm2 cable?
3. ???

What else?
Would a sparks not have all the required cabling / trunking etc?

Even if you bought the charger last November you can avail of some the grant, just leave the charger out of the cost of materials, you can still use the grant to cover the labour and any materials the electrician uses.

Also you could just sell the charger for close to what you paid for it and buy a new one.

jarrieta · 08-11-2018 11:40am

denismc wrote: »

Even if you bought the charger last November you can avail of some the grant, just leave the charger out of the cost of materials, you can still use the grant to cover the labour and any materials the electrician uses.

Also you could just sell the charger for close to what you paid for it and buy a new one.

I thought he was referring to the car, not only the charger

denismc · 08-11-2018 11:57am

jarrieta wrote: »

I thought he was referring to the car, not only the charger

If that's the case then he can fully avail of the grant for the charger, it doesn't matter when you buy your car, the charger is a totally separate grant.

DrPhilG · 08-11-2018 1:54pm

denismc wrote: »

If that's the case then he can fully avail of the grant for the charger, it doesn't matter when you buy your car, the charger is a totally separate grant.

Not sure if I'm picking you up correctly.

SEAI wrote:

Eligibility Criteria Applicant

Any private owner who buys an eligible EV in 2018 or later is eligible to apply for this grant.

denismc · 08-11-2018 1:58pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not sure if I'm picking you up correctly.

Oops, I am at work, so I don't have the paperwork in front of me, apologies!:o

stimpson · 08-11-2018 1:59pm

He could always "sell" it to the Mrs.

Batesy · 08-11-2018 8:22pm

denismc wrote: »

If that's the case then he can fully avail of the grant for the charger, it doesn't matter when you buy your car, the charger is a totally separate grant.

The €600 grant for 2nd hand purchases only came into effect from Jan 2018.
I purchased my 2nd hand Leaf in Nov 2017 so just missed out.

Prior to that, the free charger was only for brand new EV purchases.

Unfortunely I'll have to foot the total bill for my home charger.

Batesy · 16-11-2018 9:27pm

Anyone foresee any Black Friday deals on home charger units??

rolion · 16-11-2018 10:51pm

Batesy wrote: »

Anyone foresee any Black Friday deals on home charger units??

No matter what deal you get on the charger itself...the Labour going to offset any savings...once you mention about the grant and signature, suddenly the installation price doubles.

Been asked to pay e200 just to finish a DIY charger install by the way of connecting the endpoints of the cable...

icom · 17-11-2018 12:44am

Batesy wrote: »

Anyone foresee any Black Friday deals on home charger units??

Sale on the Rolec Type 2 wallpod 16 or 32 amp
https://evonestop.co.uk/collections/wall-mounted-chargers/products/wallpod-ev-commercialcharge-type-2-socket

rolion · 18-11-2018 3:06pm

Trying to make sense of some posts above...
Lets assume that owner have PV solar and a EV.
Why go with a zappi unit so that to "detect" energy generation as the car will not be at home most of the time !?

I like charging the car whenever I want or as I need (I know preferable night time) but I don't see the point made about PVs.
You will need a good size array to push 3kwh in to the car without diverting "involuntarily" in to home appliances .

I went with a JuiceBox Pro32 and get dual tariff on the electricity meter charges.
Lots of automation built-in the charger and / or the car to deal with time versus charges, I think.

KCross · 18-11-2018 4:07pm

rolion wrote: »

Trying to make sense of some posts above...
Lets assume that owner have PV solar and a EV.
Why go with a zappi unit so that to "detect" energy generation as the car will not be at home most of the time !?

Some people have the EV at home while the sun is shining and it will suit them.

Some wont, but the Zappi is still worth the money as it has other important features that set it apart from other EVSE's... load limiting and load balancing primarily.

Nedved85 · 18-11-2018 5:58pm

rolion wrote: »

Trying to make sense of some posts above...
Lets assume that owner have PV solar and a EV.
Why go with a zappi unit so that to "detect" energy generation as the car will not be at home most of the time !?

I like charging the car whenever I want or as I need (I know preferable night time) but I don't see the point made about PVs.
You will need a good size array to push 3kwh in to the car without diverting "involuntarily" in to home appliances .

I went with a JuiceBox Pro32 and get dual tariff on the electricity meter charges.
Lots of automation built-in the charger and / or the car to deal with time versus charges, I think.

Zappi plus solar plus a battery to store the excess solar during the day so you can charge when you get home.

Cost is expensive to put in a battery now, but give it time and it'll be financially beneficial.

DesperateDan · 18-11-2018 6:07pm

It's about allowing you to make sure the car only uses solar if you have the time. It's a pretty nice feature.

Peatys · 18-11-2018 6:35pm

As it's a company car I'll be buying, can the company can buy solar panels and power wall to charge it?

The company office/registered address is where the car will be charged overnight.

stimpson · 18-11-2018 6:54pm

I recently bought a Zappi as it seemed to be a reasonable cost regardless of the features. As regards using PV panels, I need to do the sums but I think the break even will be a long time when compared to night rate electricity. I’m thinking 10 years+. I may wait and see if panel costs drop over the next couple of years.

Stealthirl · 18-11-2018 8:38pm

KCross wrote: »

Some people have the EV at home while the sun is shining and it will suit them.

Some wont, but the Zappi is still worth the money as it has other important features that set it apart from other EVSE's... load limiting and load balancing primarily.

That was my main thing along with me being a night worker so my home charging is on day rate mostly

denismc · 18-11-2018 11:03pm

Peatys wrote: »

As it's a company car I'll be buying, can the company can buy solar panels and power wall to charge it?

The company office/registered address is where the car will be charged overnight.

There is a thing where the company can write off the cost of energy efficient products against corporation tax thus reducing the cost of installing car chargers, solar panels etc. by 12.5%.

The link below explains it pretty well.

https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/accelerated-capital-allowance/

TOLLOT · 19-11-2018 4:11pm

Peatys wrote: »

As it's a company car I'll be buying, can the company can buy solar panels and power wall to charge it?

The company office/registered address is where the car will be charged overnight.

If it’s a company car and the company is buying the unit you could look at another option , it costs more than the Zappi though , it’s an Andersen A2 but the company will get the VAT off at point of sale ( , they are UK based )
Has the load balancing and the solar option , app & three phase option if you can use it . Cable is tidied away too .Nice looking unit .
I got one recently. I’ve zero connection with them btw , just adding another option to the discussion.

RonnieL · 20-11-2018 1:14pm

Hi folks,

I'm awaiting delivery of my first EV, a second hand 2014 leaf. I've just gotten my grant approval letter from the SEAI, and I've arranged for a couple of local (SAFE registered) electricians to call to my house to provide a quote for a charger installation.

The dealer I am buying the car off sells Zappi charge points and will give me a 10% discount on the price (full price is 585 euro I believe).

Any thoughts on the best (and most economical) approach?

I understand the Zappi does fancy things with Solar power, but I live in Galway, and the way my house is oriented, I doubt I'll ever have and solar power source. Another factor is I was already thinking of getting an outdoor socket installed for Christmas lights, so I'm wondering if it would make sense to do both in one if possible?

So, really I'm looking for advice/recommendations on home chargers. I'd like to be future proof to a degree i.e. if I decided to buy the latest model leaf in a couple of years.

Apologies for the newbie nature of my question. I have read a number of threads on here, but I'm thrown by a lot of the jargon.

Thanks,

Ronan

DesperateDan · 20-11-2018 1:32pm

I'm getting a Zappi purely because of the load balancing and the fact that it negates the need for a priority switch. Not even considering solar right now. All chargers at that price are pretty future proofed, it just needs a Type 2 connection and a 32A feed. If there is a possibility you will have a second car and second charger then both Zappis will make sure they won't trip the fuse board.

You can update the software on the Zappi as well.

I would definitely get an outdoor socket installed at the same time, it's basically the same job.

TheChizler · 20-11-2018 2:10pm

My mother is the same now with a Kona arriving in January. I've started reading this thread from the start but if anyone has any tips as to what's suitable. Ideally single phase 32 A tethered type 2 and pole mounted (I'm sure we could build some sort of plinth if it had to be wall mounted). Have asked for a quote for Zappi from myenergi, there's no PV but I like the load balancing feature, also got on to EVBox but I know nothing about them. Ideally won't go over the SEAI grant.

We think this is the only place we can put it in the garden really, anywhere else cables would be trip hazards or it would be too difficult to bring a connection to. Maybe a little closer to the ground. We'll probably bring the cable under the path/between the grout ourselves and get the electrician to connect the ends. Excuse my terrible editing skills.

6034073

RonnieL · 20-11-2018 5:41pm

DesperateDan wrote: »

I'm getting a Zappi purely because of the load balancing and the fact that it negates the need for a priority switch. Not even considering solar right now. All chargers at that price are pretty future proofed, it just needs a Type 2 connection and a 32A feed. If there is a possibility you will have a second car and second charger then both Zappis will make sure they won't trip the fuse board.

You can update the software on the Zappi as well.

I would definitely get an outdoor socket installed at the same time, it's basically the same job.

I certainly wouldn't rule out a second EV at some point.

Anyone care to suggest an alternative to the Zappi? If not, I might just go with it.

PS: Do people do anything to secure their charging units? To protect from theft/weather/young lads messing.

rolion · 20-11-2018 6:35pm

I dont get the beauty with Zappi in relation to load balancing and load limiting.
Too late for me to change it now but i love / like to know what is it and how will you use it in a typical working environment .

I dont believe in the thing with PV panels,thats a nice marketing bonus feature that works if you have over 5Kw PVs installed power so that you can use 2kw for appliances and 3kw for charging the car over daytime.And that if Sun allows....and the car at home.

I stand to be corrected on any features AND hate to be brought as the last one major advantage being the price... i consider you buy it once along with the expensive car and a very decent grant.

Thanks in advance.

KCross · 20-11-2018 7:47pm

rolion wrote: »

I dont get the beauty with Zappi in relation to load balancing and load limiting.
Too late for me to change it now but i love / like to know what is it and how will you use it in a typical working environment .

load limiting - most houses have a 64A limit on their consumer unit. If you are running an electric shower (35A+) and you then add a 32A car charger you blow the fuse..... unless you have a priority switch or unless you have a load limiting charge point like the Zappi.

A priority switch to buy and install is about €200 so its a very useful feature if you have an electric shower and want to add car charging.

load balancing - Somewhat similar to load limiting but it's future proofing your install for the case where you have 2 EV's some time down the road. Two EV's charging at the same time will again blow the fuse but load balancing will share the load across the 2 EV's to ensure they are both fully charged overnight without blowing fuses.

Your typical dumb charge point is basically all or nothing. It delivers the full 32A or nothing, nothing in between.

The Solar PV bit is also a bit more useful than you suggest. It does of course require the car to be at home and plugged in while the sun is shining, which will be useless to you if the car needs to be at work during the day but in the case where the car is at home... even 6pm on a summers evening.... it will take whatever excess is available. If there is 4kW excess it will send 4kW to the car, if you then turn on the kettle and you now have only 2kW excess it will reduce what it sends to the car while the kettle boils and then ramp the car up again once the kettle is boiled.... the idea is to only take the excess rather than sending it to the grid for free.

You decide based on your own personal circumstances which, if any, of those features are useful to you.

Ush1 · 20-11-2018 8:32pm

Hey lads,

I bought the zappi and got a local electrician to install it. Seemed to do a good job and said 100 quid should cover it however he didn't fill in his part of the grant form and he said the reason is that a form 3 has been added that he didn't know about so will have to get a panel test done and a cert but he can't give the certs himself so now he's saying the cheapest he can get one for me is 300 quid!

Does this sound right to you lads? Can I submit the grant form just for the costs of the Zappi and leave it at that?

KCross · 20-11-2018 9:32pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Hey lads,

I bought the zappi and got a local electrician to install it. Seemed to do a good job and said 100 quid should cover it however he didn't fill in his part of the grant form and he said the reason is that a form 3 has been added that he didn't know about so will have to get a panel test done and a cert but he can't give the certs himself so now he's saying the cheapest he can get one for me is 300 quid!

Does this sound right to you lads? Can I submit the grant form just for the costs of the Zappi and leave it at that?

That depends on what the agreement between the two of you was.

Is he a local lad you met in the pub and he said he'd do it for mates rates or did you agree up front that he would install it and complete the grant forms?

The grant has always been the same. You need an official electricians cert to claim the grant.

If you didnt agree the grant element with him up front then it would be fair game for him to charge you more for that as he now has to get someone to certify the house (not just the charge point) and submit a cert. That costs time and money.

My guess is you didnt agree it or he didnt understand your request since he isnt able to provide the cert himself so he was never going to be able to fill the grant forms for you.

And no, you cant just submit the zappi receipt. You need the cert to prove it was done properly.

TheChizler · 20-11-2018 9:34pm

KCross wrote: »

load limiting - most houses have a 64A limit on their consumer unit. If you are running an electric shower (35A+) and you then add a 32A car charger you blow the fuse..... unless you have a priority switch or unless you have a load limiting charge point like the Zappi.

Is there a sensor to attach near the meter to sense the total load or something?

Ush1 · 20-11-2018 9:51pm

KCross wrote: »

That depends on what the agreement between the two of you was.

Is he a local lad you met in the pub and he said he'd do it for mates rates or did you agree up front that he would install it and complete the grant forms?

The grant has always been the same. You need an official electricians cert to claim the grant.

If you didnt agree the grant element with him up front then it would be fair game for him to charge you more for that as he now has to get someone to certify the house (not just the charge point) and submit a cert. That costs time and money.

My guess is you didnt agree it or he didnt understand your request since he isnt able to provide the cert himself so he was never going to be able to fill the grant forms for you.

And no, you cant just submit the zappi receipt. You need the cert to prove it was done properly.

I found him on a local Facebook page and he agreed to fill in his part of the grant form beforehand. If he can't provide the cert would that mean he isn't an electrician at all?

n97 mini · 20-11-2018 10:52pm

If he's RECI he's a registered electrician.

But for the grant a whole pile of indirectly related checks have to be done... making sure earths are up to current regs etc. Afaik this means (among others) making sure all your taps are earthed etc.

KCross · 20-11-2018 11:18pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Is there a sensor to attach near the meter to sense the total load or something?

Yes, exactly.

Ush1 wrote: »

I found him on a local Facebook page and he agreed to fill in his part of the grant form beforehand. If he can't provide the cert would that mean he isn't an electrician at all?

He probably is a trained electrician just not a certified one so he cant give you a cert for work completed.

He now has to find a certified electrician who is willing to signoff on his work. Thats easier said than done because the guy who has to come and sign it off is going to have to inspect work from another electrician that he doesnt know or didnt supervise and has no idea what he actually did onsite.

If the house burns down its the guy who signs the cert has to stand over the job not your local guy.

If the agreement between the two of you was clear and he said he was going to signoff on the grant forms then its his bad and he should rectify it but you need to be realistic... the job was €100 and now its going to cost €300 more for the cert. Clearly he isnt going to stump up the €300 for your benefit. He is more likely to cut his losses and forego the €100.

That leaves you with two choices...
- claim the grant and get someone in to certify the job and pay them their €300 or whatever you can negotiate and possibly have to do more work as well if they find any issues with other things in the house like earthrods, insufficient tails, earthing issues etc. i.e. They might refuse to give you a cert until you do more work to bring the house up to regulation!

- forego the grant and chalk it down to experience as it is clearly laid out in the T&C's of the grant that you have to use a registered electrician. Cold comfort now.

n97 mini wrote: »

If he's RECI he's a registered electrician.

Op said the local guy cant give the certs himself so that means he's not a RECI.

Ush1 · 20-11-2018 11:26pm

Thanks for that.

Problem is he did say he could fill out his part of the grant form beforehand.

Would I have any comeback here legally?

Just to add my wife has already paid him the 100 quid. The other thing is if I was to forgo the grant, how do I know the installation is safe at all?

KCross · 20-11-2018 11:34pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Problem is he did say he could fill out his part of the grant form beforehand.

Would I have any comeback here legally?

Maybe. Would it be worth it to sue your local spark and have him bad mouthing you in the pub to his mates... your call!

It is mainly his fault, from what you've described, but its also somewhat your fault too as you didnt read the T&C's of the grant.
I know the small print can be hard to decipher and if you dont know what a certified electrician is, how can you know what you dont know.

Next step is to have a conversation with him and see what he can do and see if you can negotiate that €300 down on the basis it was his own fault.

If you have a big bust up with him and he walks away it will be harder for you to get someone to certify his work than if he gets someone himself to do it.

It depends on what kind of a character he is really. Maybe he's decent and will put his hand up and admit he got it wrong. Maybe he wont and leave it to you to sort it out.

KCross · 20-11-2018 11:42pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Just to add my wife has already paid him the 100 quid. The other thing is if I was to forgo the grant, how do I know the installation is safe at all?

Well that doesnt give you any wriggle room now so.

As for whether its safe or not.... thats down to trust. He is local, so do you trust his expertise or not?

It sounds like it would be in the back of your mind so maybe get a certified electrician in and pay the €300 if you think he is any way shady.

YOu probably paid about €550 for the Zappi, €100 for the local guy and another €300 now for the cert and then get the €600 back so thats a net €350 you need to pay for piece of mind (assuming there are no issues with your house wiring... which there could very well be if its an old house)

Or forego the grant and it will have cost you €650.

Do you trust his work or not is the thing.

n97 mini · 21-11-2018 12:29am

KCross wrote: »

Op said the local guy cant give the certs himself so that means he's not a RECI.

Ush1 wrote: »

Problem is he did say he could fill out his part of the grant form beforehand.

That sounds like he's RECI. The rest of it doesn't though...

OP, as regards being RECI or not could be the difference between being having paid his membership dues, or not. He could still be a qualified electrician (or not). It does sound like you'd be winning financially though if you paid the extra and got the grant.

KAGY · 21-11-2018 12:43am

n97 mini wrote: »

That sounds like he's RECI. The rest of it doesn't though...

OP, as regards being RECI or not could be the difference between being having paid his membership dues, or not. He could still be a qualified electrician (or not). It does sound like you'd be winning financially though if you paid the extra and got the grant.

Is your electrician on this list: https://safeelectric.ie/find-an-electrician/

BTW, my install cost 150 inc cert and about 7 m of 6 sq cable

KCross · 21-11-2018 12:12pm

KAGY wrote: »

BTW, my install cost 150 inc cert and about 7 m of 6 sq cable

Thats interesting. So, maybe the €300 being quoted is excessive then but its alot easier for a RECI to provide a cert for his own work at a decent rate.

Having to retrospectively provide a cert for someone else's work is going to cost more.

Batesy · 22-11-2018 3:43pm

Is there a particular spec of cable to use to future proof?

Is 6mm2 enough?

stimpson · 22-11-2018 3:54pm

Batesy wrote: »

Is there a particular spec of cable to use to future proof?

Is 6mm2 enough?

6mm2 is enough for 32A/7.2KW. Even if your car will only charge at 16A it will be futureproofed.

rolion · 22-11-2018 5:07pm

My spark has recommended 10sq mm but with some sort of metalic shielding,like H E R E .
My charger 32A came with 6sq mm cable out of factory.

stimpson · 22-11-2018 5:25pm

rolion wrote: »

My spark has recommended 10sq mm but with some sort of metalic shielding,like H E R E .
My charger 32A came with 6sq mm cable out of factory.

Is your cable running underground? Mine is straight out through the wall near the fuse box.

Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

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