Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

ELM327

I mean, if you don't get the work done and you want your house to be a 32a fire instead thats fine too.

denismc

eamondunphy wrote: »

just a follow up question if thats ok.

I had another electrician out over the weekend, and like previous ones, stated that i'd need to do thousands of euros of work to the house to get the it passed, which i cant afford, the house is nearly 40 years old.

I was wondering, is it compulsory to get all the work done before sending in for the grant?

Like can i get a cert saying the charger was put in successfully but that, the electrician stated that x,y,z in other parts of the house need to be updated and still claim the grant?

I'm aware that i should get the work done asap but i cant afford to right now.

If every house in the country was to try get a charger and the grant tomorrow, easily over 50% would need work done in order to get a cert and the 600e and in that case, instead of getting money back, it would actually end up costing much more

I don't think any electrician worth his salt is going to certify your installation if there are issues with your houses wiring.
If 2 electricians are saying the same thing then I think you should consider upgrading your house for your own safety.
Get a couple of quotes and go about getting finance maybe.

KCross

eamondunphy wrote: »

I had another electrician out over the weekend, and like previous ones, stated that i'd need to do thousands of euros of work to the house to get the it passed, which i cant afford, the house is nearly 40 years old.

I was wondering, is it compulsory to get all the work done before sending in for the grant?

Yes, is the simple answer, unless you can find an electrician willing to risk his livelihood for you.

eamondunphy wrote: »

I'm aware that i should get the work done asap but i cant afford to right now.

If every house in the country was to try get a charger and the grant tomorrow, easily over 50% would need work done in order to get a cert and the 600e and in that case, instead of getting money back, it would actually end up costing much more

If you cant afford it then it doesnt leave you with many options. I'd suggest two...

- Ask the electrician if you could get a 16A charge point installed without the need for the remdial works. The answer is probably still going to be the same but maybe that would be allowed..... any sparks on the forum know if that would change the answer (as opposed to a 32A)? Maybe he could fit the 16A chargepoint to an existing circuit and hence it would mean different rules apply?

- Forget the charge point, just use a granny cable to a 3-pin socket. It will be alot slower than a Zappi but it gets you passed the issue. Obviously no need for the grant in that case.

ted1

Electric Ireland may be offering a good deal on chargers , there one advertised on our internal website but it doesn’t state if it’s staff only.

Worth while calling them

unkel

Details?

ted1

unkel wrote: »

Details?

Less than 150 installed with added extras that brings it down more.

17larsson

On the electrical certificate for any new circuit there are tick boxes and readings that need to be filled in for it to be valid.
These include the size of the mains tails, the earth to the hot press, boiler and earth spike. These all have to be up to current regs before any new circuit regardless of size can be certified.

Any other problems in the house on any of the other circuits are not this electricians problem. If he sees any issues he could fill out a notice of hazard and give it to the owner (and one to safe electric) but that is just if he sees them or they are obviously dangerous, he doesn't need to test the rest of the house apart from the RCDs

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

Less than 150 installed with added extras that brings it down more.

W00t?

Any more info please!

ted1

unkel wrote: »

W00t?

Any more info please!

As I said it may just be a staff offer , but it doedn’t say it is
Just ring the home services team and ask about the home charger deal.

unkel

Eh yeah - checked it out. They charge €748 for an ABL 16A charger installed with just 4mm2 cable and just an 16A RCBO. Net of the subsidy that would be €148 - more or less what you were saying.

The ABL charger itself is excellent and can be flashed to 32A (I did it myself on my own free ABL charger) but not when 4mm cable and a 16A RCBO are used :rolleyes:

ted1

unkel wrote: »

Eh yeah - checked it out. They charge €748 for an ABL 16A charger installed with just 4mm2 cable and just an 16A RCBO. Net of the subsidy that would be €148 - more or less what you were saying.

The ABL charger itself is excellent and can be flashed to 32A (I did it myself on my own free ABL charger) but not when 4mm cable and a 16A RCBO are used :rolleyes:

Ok.
They were also offering some extras like 50% voucher and 10% off insurance.

The sparks installing would probably increase to 6 or 8mm. If asked.

Stealthirl

eamondunphy wrote: »

just a follow up question if thats ok.

I had another electrician out over the weekend, and like previous ones, stated that i'd need to do thousands of euros of work to the house to get the it passed, which i cant afford, the house is nearly 40 years old.

I was wondering, is it compulsory to get all the work done before sending in for the grant?

Like can i get a cert saying the charger was put in successfully but that, the electrician stated that x,y,z in other parts of the house need to be updated and still claim the grant?

I'm aware that i should get the work done asap but i cant afford to right now.

If every house in the country was to try get a charger and the grant tomorrow, easily over 50% would need work done in order to get a cert and the 600e and in that case, instead of getting money back, it would actually end up costing much more

What work are they saying you need to get done ?

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

The sparks installing would probably increase to 6 or 8mm. If asked.

I wouldn't count on that. Or at least I would make sure that was agreed before you do the deal with them

I had to have a robust conversation with a well known installer to convince him to use the 6mm2 cable that I bought myself (instead of using their own 4mm2 cable)

stimpson

Does anyone know if you need to have purchased the car before applying for the grant. I’m picking up an Outlander next week and would like to get a charge point in ASAP.

bonoman66

stimpson wrote: »

Does anyone know if you need to have purchased the car before applying for the grant. I’m picking up an Outlander next week and would like to get a charge point in ASAP.

From my own recent experience, you only need the SEAI Home Charger Grant ID from the paperwork - my garage gave me a copy of it etc...

I'm buying an EV, have the deposit paid & the paperwork filled out with the garage. I won't have the car until Jan.

I rang the SEAI Grant Office to ask about timelines & whether I could apply, as I want my charger at home in place before the car arrives (I know I've loads of time but just want it sorted).

I'm waiting for them to add the EV car model I'm buying to their site so I can apply online (or I was told I can just select another car from the manufacturer - its not critical as part of the process that the car is exact).

So there does not seem to be any issue with you applying for the grant before you fully purchase the car - you just need that Grant ID.

stimpson

bonoman66 wrote: »

From my own recent experience, you only need the SEAI Home Charger Grant ID from the paperwork - my garage gave me a copy of it etc...

I'm buying an EV, have the deposit paid & the paperwork filled out with the garage. I won't have the car until Jan.

I rang the SEAI Grant Office to ask about timelines & whether I could apply, as I want my charger at home in place before the car arrives (I know I've loads of time but just want it sorted).

I'm waiting for them to add the EV car model I'm buying to their site so I can apply online (or I was told I can just select another car from the manufacturer - its not critical as part of the process that the car is exact).

So there does not seem to be any issue with you applying for the grant before you fully purchase the car - you just need that Grant ID.

It’s a used car and has yet to be VRTed so not sure about the grant ID.

bonoman66

stimpson wrote: »

It’s a used car and has yet to be VRTed so not sure about the grant ID.

Ok thanks sorry - can't say what applies for used car etc..

I'm sure others here with more experience will help with advice..

Hope you enjoy your new purchase !

denismc

You can apply directly to SEAI for the grant, it's on their website.
There is no need for a car registration initially, just apply online and they will send you out the offer in the post. You then have 6 months to complete the application.

barneyrub

I applied couple weeks ago. No car yet. Got approval in this week. Dont need any id or that for it

bonoman66

barneyrub wrote: »

I applied couple weeks ago. No car yet. Got approval in this week. Dont need any id or that for it

I was told by my garage I needed the grant ID to properly submit my application.

When I rang the SEAI Grant Team, one of the first pieces of information they requested from my was my Grant ID.

When you are filling out their online form to apply for the grant there is a section called:

Electric Vehicle Grant Application ID

It also states

Step by step process
Complete our online Electric Vehicle Home Charger grant application form. You will need your Meter Point Reference Number (the full 11 digit number on the top of your electricity bill) and your home address Eircode. If you are buying a new EV here in Ireland and receiving an EV grant from SEAI, you will need to provide your application ID which will be available from your car dealer.


Maybe you had a different application process to follow for the grant (maybe its different for second hand versus new etc..) but this was my experience within the last few days etc..


- Just re-read the instructions - looks like the grant ID is really only for the new vehicle SEAI Grant - not specifically the Home Charger Grant. Sorry for my confusion.. You were right all along.. apologies..

barneyrub

Ya must only be for new cars.
ours is second hand

barneyrub

Ya must only be for new cars.
ours is second hand

Himselfe

I'll be bringing my newly purchased Leaf (30kw with 6.6kw charger) back from the UK tomorrow and was thinking I might be able to purchase a charger to install at home on the way (well, I'll get a sparky to install it obviously). Anyone know of any reputable sellers I could pay a visit to? I'll be driving from Milton Keynes to Holyhead, so anywhere in between would be ideal. Just on the off chance someone might know a place.
Thanks!

Ush1

Hi lads,

I'm collecting a 2013 leaf with 24kwh and 3.3kw charging on Saturday.

I'm interested in electric Ireland's offer for 750 installation. Would only be 150 quid on top of the grant.

They said its a Single Phase ABL eMH1 model. We are supplying it as untethered so it comes with a Type 2 socket rather than a cable and its a 3.6kw charge point.

No clue what any of that means but am I getting the right yoke and is there a cheaper way?

denismc

Ush1 wrote: »

Hi lads,

I'm collecting a 2013 leaf with 24kwh and 3.3kw charging on Saturday.

I'm interested in electric Ireland's offer for 750 installation. Would only be 150 quid on top of the grant.

They said its a Single Phase ABL eMH1 model. We are supplying it as untethered so it comes with a Type 2 socket rather than a cable and its a 3.6kw charge point.

No clue what any of that means but am I getting the right yoke and is there a cheaper way?

Nothing wrong with that charger but If you ever upgrade to something with a bigger battery that charger may seem a bit slow, if you charge overnight then it's fine.
I am getting a 7kw charger installed for 850 euro so there is probably better value out there.

Ush1

denismc wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that charger but If you ever upgrade to something with a bigger battery that charger may seem a bit slow, if you charge overnight then it's fine.
I am getting a 7kw charger installed for 850 euro so there is probably better value out there.

Can I ask where you got that quote?

unkel

Ush1 wrote: »

Can I ask where you got that quote?

A 7.2kW Zappi is probably one of the most desirable chargers out there. Costs about €550 incl VAT for the charger itself. The materials for a basic install (cable, RCBO, ducting) come to well under €100 incl VAT and it is about 1-2 hours work

So even a basic install with a high end charger should come in under €850 unless the installer is ripping you off

If you buy a cheaper (but still new) 7kW charger yourself, the install should come in under €600, so basically completely free after the subsidy

Ush1

unkel wrote: »

A 7.2kW Zappi is probably one of the most desirable chargers out there. Costs about €550 incl VAT for the charger itself. The materials for a basic install (cable, RCBO, ducting) come to well under €100 incl VAT and it is about 1-2 hours work

So even a basic install with a high end charger should come in under €850 unless the installer is ripping you off

If you buy a cheaper (but still new) 7kW charger yourself, the install should come in under €600, so basically completely free after the subsidy

Can you post a link where to get it at that price and an installer?

unkel

Zappi can be had from electricautos.ie

Any registered electrician can get all the other parts and do the install. It is pretty much exactly the same as installing an outside socket - a very basic job

DesperateDan

Are Zappis only very useful if you are installing solar panels?

DrPhilG

I've had a quote from a spark to replace my Rolec with the Zappi.

Getting the Zappi from Electric Autos for €585, spark quoted €180 to fit it. That's kinda expensive given that the wiring is already in place but he'll test and certify it so I'll qualify for the grant.

So the upgrade will cost me about €165, not bad since I'll be getting a new tethered zappi charger in place of an untethered 3.5 year old Rolec.

The Rolec will go up for sale which should recover a fair bit of that outlay.

unkel

DesperateDan wrote: »

Are Zappis only very useful if you are installing solar panels?

Yes. But seeing as the Zappi charger only costs marginally more then another charger, you might as well go for one to start with. Especially when it is almost fully paid for by a subsidy

If you don't have solar panels now, it is quite likely that you will in future. These also attract very generous subsidies since last month BTW

ted1

unkel wrote: »

Yes. But seeing as the Zappi charger only costs marginally more then another charger, you might as well go for one to start with. Especially when it is almost fully paid for by a subsidy

If you don't have solar panels now, it is quite likely that you will in future. These also attract very generous subsidies since last month BTW

But realistically does it make a difference? How many people will charge the car during day light hours as opposed to over night.

I think Zappi are fixing a problem that doesn’t exist.
Also if you have so much energy to spare during the day does it not indicate an incorrectly sized PV system?

unkel

Both good points, ted1.

It won't make a difference if you don't have PV or if you do, but don't have the car at your house much during the day. I for one do have my car at the house quite often during the day

Also I presume Zappi is smart so it can already (or can be easily modified to) work with multiple electricity rates and smart home meters. Dumb chargers can't. And about incorrectly sized PV system (I presume you mean a system that is too big), I don't really think you can have a solar PV system that is too big. We will use more and more electricity (and less other fuels) in the house. And I expect battery storage to become a lot cheaper over time. Zappi can work with home batteries too. And again presumably it will be able to cater for V2H / V2G. Big subsidies at the moment for PV (and battery) installs too. If you are going for a subsidised install, the best value is a system with as big an array and as small a battery as possible. The PV array will be maintenance free and easily last 25-30 years. I also expect the tax / VAT / excise / environmental charges on electricity to increase. And no one can charge you for electricity you produce yourself :cool:

Or in a summary: if you can have a basic EVSE installed for free or a Zappi for €200, I think you would be nuts to not go with the Zappi

denismc

The Zappi is handy for me as I work shift, I do most of my charging at work but I will do the odd charge at home during the day when I am sleeping.
I already have PV panels installed so it makes sense for me. And all PV systems will produce a surplus no matter how you size them.
And as others have pointed out you can buy the unit yourself and get the local electrician to install, the net cost to me will be about 2-250 euro

KCross

DesperateDan wrote: »

Are Zappis only very useful if you are installing solar panels?

ted1 wrote: »

But realistically does it make a difference? How many people will charge the car during day light hours as opposed to over night.

I think Zappi are fixing a problem that doesn’t exist.

There is more to the Zappi than just SolarPV integration although the SolarPV piece is the feature they use most to market it... i guess they are playing the green angle.

It also does load balancing and load limiting which is very important if you plan to have 2 EV's in the house at some point in the future or if you have other power hungry devices in the house like an electric shower where you need to ensure fuses are not tripping.

I would rate those 2 features above SolarPV but the point is, the Zappi has them all, by default.

Most of the other dumb EVSE's have none of that and are not that much cheaper.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Most of the other dumb EVSE's have none of that and are not that much cheaper.

My point exactly.

Do you know if a Zappi can work with smart metering / variable rates? Or can be programmed to be? Or needs needs new firmware for when this comes into play?

I do plan to replace my ABL charger with a Zappi at some point as it is a straight swap for what I have and I can sell on the ABL, so I would only be looking at say €550 for the Zappi minus say €300 for my untethered 32A ABL (is this too optmistic?)

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Do you know if a Zappi can work with smart metering / variable rates? Or can be programmed to be? Or needs needs new firmware for when this comes into play?

Not sure exactly what the question is. It has timers so you can of course charge on cheaper rates but I dont think thats what you are asking?

The whole smart metering and associated tariffs thing is not rolled out yet in Ireland or the UK and in any case it doesnt look like it will be realtime pricing so not sure what the Zappi could do better other than timers based around the multiple tariff times.

unkel wrote: »

I do plan to replace my ABL charger with a Zappi at some point as it is a straight swap for what I have and I can sell on the ABL, so I would only be looking at say €550 for the Zappi minus say €300 for my untethered 32A ABL (is this too optmistic?)

I think thats optimistic.
Would you buy a used one for €300 or a new one with 2yr warranty for €100 or so more? No way I'd give someone €300 for a used one, just for warranty reasons alone.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

not sure what the Zappi could do better other than timers based around the multiple tariff times.

It might be programmable - a bit more than just using a dumb timer? In the way you suggested how IOT enabled hardware could work with variable rates (published via an API)

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It might be programmable - a bit more than just using a dumb timer? In the way you suggested how IOT enabled hardware could work with variable rates (published via an API)

I'm sure that will come in time but it doesnt do that right now. The main stumbling block there would be that the energy providers would need to devise and agree an API/standard that devices could then adhere to. I havent seen any of that happening and clearly it wouldnt make sense for Zappi to do it on an ad-hoc basis for each provider. It would need to be a published standard to make it viable to programme and release it in their device.

For now, its just dumb timers.

DrPhilG

I'm hoping it can be programmed.

One downside of the i3 is that it's a bit of a pain in the arse to override the timer when using a public slow charger.

In the Leaf you just press the timer override button and off you go. In the i3 you have to go into the menu and change from "off peak charging" to "charge immediately". Then change back afterwards.

If the Zappi can restrict my home charging to night rate then I can just leave the timer in the car off.

unkel

And the timer override button just works for the one charge then? That's a better system.

DrPhilG wrote: »

In the i3 you have to go into the menu and change from "off peak charging" to "charge immediately". Then change back afterwards.

Same in Ioniq. And you do get caught out with your car home charging at the expensive day rate if you didn't remember to switch it back

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

And the timer override button just works for the one charge then? That's a better system.

Same in Ioniq. And you do get caught out with your car home charging at the expensive day rate if you didn't remember to switch it back

Yeah it's far better.


Just press that button after (or immediately before) you plug in and it will charge straight away, and it's a one time instruction.

Same applies if you use the app, it will change to immediate charge but as a one off instruction.

With the i3 whether you go via the car menu or the app it will change permanently and you need to manually change back.

DrPhilG

Not that I'm having buyers regret of course. I3 GOM told me the other day that I had 116 miles on battery and another 82 on REx. I was only at 88% too!

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

And the timer override button just works for the one charge then? That's a better system.



Same in Ioniq. And you do get caught out with your car home charging at the expensive day rate if you didn't remember to switch it back

Ioniq override button works for just the one charge too though.
No risk of being caught out if you leave it to default charge only at night rate time and use the override button for individual charges.

DrPhilG

Quick question, the eligibility criteria for the grant says that the "charger must be connected back to the fuse board on the home of the applicant".

What does that mean exactly? My charger is in the garage and is connected to a fuse board in the garage. Does that count as separate to the main fuse board in the house itself?

denismc

DrPhilG wrote: »

Quick question, the eligibility criteria for the grant says that the "charger must be connected back to the fuse board on the home of the applicant".

What does that mean exactly? My charger is in the garage and is connected to a fuse board in the garage. Does that count as separate to the main fuse board in the house itself?

I would think once its connected to you main meter somehow that its ok.
I think the grant is associated with your houses MPRN, I guess this is to keep people from availing of the grant multiple times.

denismc

unkel wrote: »

My point exactly.

Do you know if a Zappi can work with smart metering / variable rates? Or can be programmed to be? Or needs needs new firmware for when this comes into play?

I do plan to replace my ABL charger with a Zappi at some point as it is a straight swap for what I have and I can sell on the ABL, so I would only be looking at say €550 for the Zappi minus say €300 for my untethered 32A ABL (is this too optmistic?)

I fired off an email to Myenergi as I was curious about this also, their response:

"Thanks for getting in touch. The eSense function needs a physical wired connection from an economy tariff source, into the eSense connection within the zappi. That wiring then automatically becomes live during the economy tariff times and initiates a charge.


Its also possible to set timers within the esense menu to control when you want to charge but this still needs the wiring connection putting to the esense terminals.


We say to customers that if you have a dual tariff meter fitted, then you can set boost timers to coincide with your economy times and therefore there's no need to put any additional wiring to the zappi."

To be fair to these guys they are always quick to respond.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

Quick question, the eligibility criteria for the grant says that the "charger must be connected back to the fuse board on the home of the applicant".

What does that mean exactly? My charger is in the garage and is connected to a fuse board in the garage. Does that count as separate to the main fuse board in the house itself?

They just mean that its not connected to some independent supply. As long as the power going to the car is coming from your house meter they will be happy with that. You provide your MPRN and thats the box ticked for them.

denismc wrote: »

I would think once its connected to you main meter somehow that its ok.
I think the grant is associated with your houses MPRN, I guess this is to keep people from availing of the grant multiple times.

+1

denismc wrote: »

I fired off an email to Myenergi as I was curious about this also, their response:

"Thanks for getting in touch. The eSense function needs a physical wired connection from an economy tariff source, into the eSense connection within the zappi. That wiring then automatically becomes live during the economy tariff times and initiates a charge.


Its also possible to set timers within the esense menu to control when you want to charge but this still needs the wiring connection putting to the esense terminals.


We say to customers that if you have a dual tariff meter fitted, then you can set boost timers to coincide with your economy times and therefore there's no need to put any additional wiring to the zappi."

To be fair to these guys they are always quick to respond.

This is really just two things...

- Delay timer so that you can avail of night rate electricity... nothing new there.
- The eSense thing doesnt work in Ireland, AFAIK. You need a specific meter or install where additional economy tariffs can be sensed by Zappi and then it fires up the car charger. Its not applicable to Ireland as we have fixed time based tariffs and I dont think it will apply when we get SmartMeters either.

tldr; Its not really integrated with SmartMeter's in any direct way or availing of market rate electricity etc.

If market based pricing does come out I'm sure Zappi will be the first to implement it. They are onto a winner already with that they have so they will want to maintain that advantage.

DesperateDan

I'm going to try and find someone to install a Zappi based on what I'm hearing here on boards it's worth it even without a solar right now.

None of the other chargers seem to have this load balancing so paying a bit more is worth it. An extra priority switch install seems to be a good €100. Can anyone recommend any Zappi installers?