Cork - BusConnects

Maybe, just maybe not everyone WANTS to be reliant on public transport?

I know, it's like heresy to say such things in a niche forum like this, but why do you think that people are wary of it?

Could it be decades of slow, inefficient, unreliable (and on some routes, unsafe) experiences with these services despite lots of new liveries and rebrands - CitySwift, SUPER CitySwift, Xpresso, CIE, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann... It really doesn't matter. It's still the same thing being operated by the same people. Sure there may be some inconsistent improvements but it's still the option for those with no better alternative. Slow, rambling, stopping every 30-60 seconds, jammed at peak hours, missing services, antisocial minority torturing others - even if it's just with bad music, drivers AWOL or staff shortages nowadays etc.

I'm in Cork a fair bit, and the city itself is really only a handful of main streets that are all within walking distance of a few minutes. It's no Dublin no matter how much they might want to see it as the southern equivalent. They have extended it in the last year by simply absorbing some of the surrounding suburban towns, but about the only thing I would say is needed in the actual city centre area is an expansion of the very good Park and Ride service. I use it quite a bit and it's something that should be replicated at every major junction on the M50 in my view, but a good start would be to have it operate on Sundays (which it does at Christmas time). It's ridiculous that it doesn't to be honest but when even the local bus company and council don't see the benefit of a simple change like that (it's just adding more duties to the roster) then it's hard to support a hugely disruptive notion with questionable cost/benefit returns instead.

See the problem with the above is that even with the proposed improvements, the trip is still almost double the car journey. Bus fares aren't cheap either and unless you are going to get rid of the car entirely, your public transport use is just added cost and lost time for what..?

The environment? Please! I know Eamon Ryan and his bunch of numpties would have us believe that the survival of the planet depends on what we in Ireland do, but in reality we are an insignificant fraction of an issue far more affected by the likes of Russia, the US, India and others than anything a small island of 5 million people do.

You also highlight another long standing problem, even where there are priority routes or measures - simple A to B trips may be worthwhile, but any deviation and it becomes a mess of lost time, missing connections and frustration.

And by the way.. I write all this as someone who put up with all of the above on Dublin Bus for 30 years, so this isn't just me being anti public transport. The problem is that it only suits a minority in Ireland and that's why it just doesn't and will likely never work well enough to be a genuinely attractive alternative, which is essential if it's to succeed.

Today I learned: Public transport in Ireland is poor, so we shouldn't improve it.

So much of the posts by _ Kaiser _ have been factually incorrect, that I suspect you're wasting your time replying.

To break down all their ridiculous points and rebut almost every single sentence:

1. The city itself is really only a handful of main streets that are all within walking distance of a few minutes (Douglas to CUH is a common commute, it's over 6km and already has a 24hour bus service. This point is demonstrably false)
2. They have extended it in the last year by simply absorbing some of the suburban towns (the 2019 city boundary extension largely absorbed areas that were already city in all but name.)
3. The only thing I would say is needed in the actual city centre area is an expansion of the very good P&R service (what about the East? Should bus P&R compete with rail? Did you just not realise that we have rail? We need integrated ticketing between both. P&R carries only fraction of the passengers that the city bus or rail services do and it's a point-to-point link between city centre and outskirts: what about CUH? UCC? CIT? Mahon? The P&R is good...but it can cater for a portion of end-users only: car users, who are - according to every study - difficult to entice out of vehicles once they sit in. In short, P&R is demonstrably a benefit to a very small number of people who need public transport, and is unlikely to be the core part of any city transport system)
4. Have the P&R operate on Sundays (P&R is heavily subsidised by city council and operates at a loss in an effort to alleviate commuter traffic. The scope could be expanded but you could also just park in any of the locations serviced by the normal high-frequency bus, given that parking is free on Sundays and ridership is low)
5. When even the local bus company and council don't see the benefit of a simple change like that etc etc (who says they don't see the benefit? This is also an effort at direct comparison between NTA BusConnects CapEx with City Council OpEx which somehow also includes the bus company and simply makes no sense at all)
6. Even with the proposed improvements, the trip is still almost double the car journey. (This is only relevant for car owners. Many people don't, and don't want to own a car, particularly in the city. Many future residents of the city will be tech workers who will come from abroad and will not want to go through the effort of getting an Irish car and licence. I know many of these already)
7. Bus fares aren't cheap either and unless you are going to get rid of the car entirely, your public transport use is just added cost and lost time (Many are currently being forced into car ownership against their will by our current system. See point 6 above. They would prefer to not sink money into cars)
8. A clichéd argument rebutting environmental issues, bemoaning the green party, claiming what we do being inconsequential etc (this simply belongs in another forum)
9. Another long standing problem, even where there are priority routes or measures - simple A to B trips may be worthwhile, but any deviation and it becomes a mess of lost time, missing connections and frustration. (Anyone who has read the BusConnects information or engaged in the process to-date would not have raised this point, as it undermines any argument against BusConnects)
10. [I] put up with all of the above on Dublin Bus for 30 years, so this isn't just me being anti public transport (Cork isn't Dublin. Cork has a fraction of the public transport that Dublin has. Even without BusConnects, Cork will still need significant investment)
11. The problem is that it only suits a minority in Ireland and that's why it just doesn't and will likely never work well enough to be a genuinely attractive alternative, which is essential if it's to succeed. (this doesn't state WHICH people it doesn't suit, or WHY it doesn't suit them. Even if this statement were true, it's quite possible that BusConnects proposals would suit these people. It's just a vague statement with nothing to back it up)

So yeah....I've wasted my time replying to all that uninformed rubbish so that nobody else needs to.

Kaiser, I suggest having a read of the BusConnects background documentation around multi-trip journeys, scheduling etc. You might find it interesting.

As well as watering down of the bus corridors in BusConnects 2.0, some ped/cycling provisions have also been quietly dropped.

The bottom of the Well Road is quite dangerous for peds and cyclists thanks to a very narrow footpath on one side, and a high stone wall on the other. See screenshot below.

BusConnects 1.0 proposed to connect two adjacent culs-de-sac to form a completely separate parallel route for peds and cyclists. Unfortunately, local councillor Terry Shannon (FF) lives just off the Well Road. He sent out leaflets which essentially orchestrated a huge NIMBY response from people in these culs-de-sac. It was real scare mongering stuff about how a ped/cycling right-of-way would lead to anti-social behaviour. Seems to have worked. Sad really.

Unfortunately he is a reflection of a lot of his constituents, especially those in his age bracket. This will play well for him.

So, so depressing. Trying to get any sort of improvement in Cork is a massive uphill battle. People love to complain about Cork, but when push comes to shove, nobody wants anything that might affect them in the slightest to change.

Lots of the submissions follow a fairly set template:

• I drive everywhere, and I think you'll be making traffic worse.
• Also, you're removing some parking, and I don't want that because I sometimes park my car there.
• People will drive faster and/or use rat runs through estates.
• Antisocial behavior will happen because reasons.
• I can't use public transport because [insert excuse here]

Wierd how this nimby states with 100% confidence what the precise impacts on traffic and travel will be. The most advanced traffic modelling programmes in the world could not offer you this level of certainty.

Did he submit a methodology section? How were these conclusions derived and were the results presented to the NTA? perhaps they could better calibrate their models based on his calcs ?

There was a cork beo ( i know not the height of journalistic prowess ) article a few weeks back that reported on an overturned car on summerhill south ,

,most of article was giving out about bus connects , pretty much Blamed bus connects for the crash , didn't mention that this is a proposed traffic change ..

Another round of consultation in the works to further water down the proposals. And this is long before we get to any sort of planning process and the inevitable objections etc.

Removal of parking for residents in the inner city is going to be a real bone of contention: these are not high-income neighbourhoods, and people living there won’t have bought a car unless they needed one. Those cars won’t just vanish just because the City Council has decided that people can’t park anywhere anymore.

Bus lanes dropped in favour of right turn lanes for private cars.. bus gates removed..

Why even bother. This is depressing stuff.

€200m Bus Connects getting watered down.

€280m bypass for Macroom opened today, will save 17 minutes for those travelling by private car.

It's clear to see where priorities lie - with the NIMBYs and private cars vs public transport and sustainable options.

We have no hope of meeting 2030 climate targets.

Ballincollig Main Street is actually laughable. Street parking retained (despite there being literally thousands of off street car spaces within a few metres of the Main Street) in the latest plans now and the priority bus gates have disappeared.

It's literally the status quo with a couple of narrow bike lanes thrown in. There's a serious NIMBY element out in Ballincollig who seem to get whatever they want - see the recent scrapping of the cycleway out there. Ballincollig is destined to remain a car clogged hole.

These are changes to facilitate the new network which is due to start being implemented next year.

There have been similar changes made in Dublin to facilitate the different phases so far as needed.

I’m mentally disengaging from the BusConnects project now. Reading residents’ submissions and councillors’ statements doesn’t do me any good. The complete watering down of the project, to the point that it is now a whole lot of nothing, is a terrible indictment of where we are as a society and of our leaders’ ability to effect meaningful change.

Cork GAA come out against Busconnects lol, and I thought things were bad in Dublin, they're doing their best to stop Busconnects down yonder

There is an archway proposed to go through an old wall in Ballincollig, sadly mis information means people think it's being knocked but the proposal is to build in an archway for pedestrians.

What's even funnier is the 2 huge archways for cars only 3m around the corner and an existing pedestrian archway, which I think adds character.

I think people should be allowed voice opposition but it should be truthful and not spreading lies as no wonder nothing gets done.

See here where the petition to save it, makes it sound like it's being removed!