Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

bilston · 01-09-2015 6:46pm

connachta wrote: »

Schmidt declared
The "mickey mouse" friendly did count, then, whatever some said:D

Training has clearly counted a lot too as we have seen with Trimble missing out and Dave Kearney seemingly jumping up the queue.

bilston · 01-09-2015 6:47pm

connachta wrote: »

I'd like him to have a go as 15, to provide cover for RK, in addition to Zebo

I didn't actually notice he was at 15 in your selection!

I still think it's more important that Henshaw and Payne get some time in the middle together.

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 6:48pm

bilston wrote: »

Training has clearly counted a lot too as we have seen with Trimble missing out and Dave Kearney seemingly jumping up the queue.

That's not so clear cut as Trimble missed so much time through injury and only got 34 minutes in the warm-ups.

connachta · 01-09-2015 6:51pm

bilston wrote: »

I didn't actually notice he was at 15 in your selection!

I still think it's more important that Henshaw and Payne get some time in the middle together.

You might be right, as it's a recent pairing...:)

Taco Corp · 01-09-2015 6:52pm

connachta wrote: »

Oh do you want some direct quotes? Will take a while, but i can easily find them

I'd like to see the quotes, thanks

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-09-2015 6:53pm

connachta wrote: »

But there's none ATM, so Boss isn't in the plane.
And don't forget provincial games will take place. 4 or 5 good ones for Marms and the reverse for Bossy, and Schmidt's opinion could change. As it changed about bringing only two scrummies

Yeh.
Bummer finding out you arent even 4th in line, but 5th, and one of those ahead of you is a standoff/centre/fullback jack of all trades.

connachta · 01-09-2015 6:54pm

Taco Corp wrote: »

I'd like to see the quotes, thanks

All right, but no name, my point wasn't a personal strike

Only those that need a run to prove/improve match fitness should get a run... Watching someone play in a relatively mickey-mouse game against similarly unprepared opposition won't carry a lot of weight

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 7:03pm

bilston wrote: »

I didn't actually notice he was at 15 in your selection!

I still think it's more important that Henshaw and Payne get some time in the middle together.

Having seen that England line-up now, we'll need to put out the strongest team we can.
I think Healy could bench, but not sure if POM, Fitz or Earls are available, so assuming not. Would say:
McGrath, Best, Ross
Toner, POC
Murphy, SOB, Heaslip
Murray, Sexton
Henshaw, Payne
Zebo, Bowe
R Kearney

Subs:
Strauss, Healy, White, Henderson, Henry, Reddan, Madigan, D Kearney.

Buer · 01-09-2015 7:05pm

I'd expect us to put out a pretty strong side for Saturday.

Something along the lines of:

RK
Bowe
Payne
Henshaw
DK/Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
Henry
SOB
POC
Toner
Ross
Best
McGrath/Healy

Could potentially see the likes of Ryan or Reddan start too.

connachta · 01-09-2015 7:09pm

smiley_face wrote: »

Having seen that England line-up now, we'll need to put out the strongest team we can.

We won't be there to win at all, but to test potentially useful combination/fitness reactions

That's why I put Ryan, SOB at 6, Furlong to start, Murphy n°8, Madigan outhalf, Earls at 13 and Payne at 15 and Healy on the bench. The rest is solid enough not to conceed 50 pts.

bilston · 01-09-2015 7:11pm

smiley_face wrote: »

Having seen that England line-up now, we'll need to put out the strongest team we can.
I think Healy could bench, but not sure if POM, Fitz or Earls are available, so assuming not. Would say:
McGrath, Best, Ross
Toner, POC
Murphy, SOB, Heaslip
Murray, Sexton
Henshaw, Payne
Zebo, Bowe
R Kearney

Subs:
Strauss, Healy, White, Henderson, Henry, Reddan, Madigan, D Kearney.

What's wrong with POM?

If he is out stick Hendy to 6.

Wang King · 01-09-2015 7:28pm

total former wrote: »

I'd say Marmion would be absolutely mortified if he saw these posts being made on his behalf.

Imagine how poor Felix would feel?!?....

He'd extend that restraining order to the internet!

Stheno · 01-09-2015 7:29pm

Wang King wrote: »

Imagine how poor Felix would feel?!?....

He'd extend that restraining order to the internet!

Restraining order?

sydthebeat · 01-09-2015 7:29pm

connachta wrote: »

All right, but no name, my point wasn't a personal strike

you DO realise that quote was referring to the pre season inter pros... yes?

The Pheasant2 · 01-09-2015 7:38pm

England have shown weakness at the breakdown and given it's an area of relative strength for us I reckon we should go after them there.

McGrath
Best
Ross
Ryan
POC
SOB
Henry
Heaslip

Murray
Sexton
DK
Henshaw
Payne
Bowe
Kearney

Strauss
Healy
White
Henderson
Murphy
Reddan
Madigan
Zebo

connachta · 01-09-2015 7:44pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you DO realise that quote was referring to the pre season inter pros... yes?

Sorry, it was on the international topic. Never mind though. There are other ones

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 10:12pm

connachta wrote: »

Sorry, it was on the international topic. Never mind though. There are other ones

Quote:
Really though ? Does it actually work like That one player in a mix and gatherem team, against a hodge podge weak experimental team, could be compared to another player in a different team, against different equally hodge podge opposition, with any significant bearing on the final squad selection seems bizarre.
If places really are up for grabs and are genuinely influenced by performance in these games, it strikes me as very amateur hour management. And I dont believe we have that.

The squad is selected in Joe's mind (yeh, yeh, I can see into his mind). These teams are about fitness, experience, combinations working together, and looking at back up options to backup options.

There is no Darcy v Cave contest going on here for example. Or any one player putting pressure on another.

aimee1 · 01-09-2015 10:18pm

smiley_face wrote: »

Quote:
Really though ? Does it actually work like That one player in a mix and gatherem team, against a hodge podge weak experimental team, could be compared to another player in a different team, against different equally hodge podge opposition, with any significant bearing on the final squad selection seems bizarre.
If places really are up for grabs and are genuinely influenced by performance in these games, it strikes me as very amateur hour management. And I dont believe we have that.

The squad is selected in Joe's mind (yeh, yeh, I can see into his mind). These teams are about fitness, experience, combinations working together, and looking at back up options to backup options.

There is no Darcy v Cave contest going on here for example. Or any one player putting pressure on another.

look at JS press conference in RTE player and he mentions the training several times. its pretty clear he used the matches for specific purposes but most of his decisions were based in the past record of the player and his training performance this summer.

ionadnapokot · 01-09-2015 10:21pm

smiley_face wrote: »

That's not so clear cut as Trimble missed so much time through injury and only got 34 minutes in the warm-ups.

Have to say i thought Trimble was nailed on for the squad and to start. To go from one of the players of the 6N in '14 to missing out on WC in just over a year must be tough to take. Feel sorry for him.... but at least he has been to 2 WC's already.
Right now id put the wingers (11) chances of starting v France at (odds on) DK 50% SZ 33% LK 25% KE 10%

.ak · 01-09-2015 10:29pm

Just watched the press con with joe. Have to say he looked very tired and a bit drawn out. You can tell this was literally the hardest squad selection of his career. The weight of the World Cup is becoming clear now, and the stuff he says about selection and calls being emotional isn't just a sound bite.

But of course that's just another reason why he's such a good coach. He may be a pedant and analytic in his approach but he's definitely a good man manager too and has a genuine connection with his players. That could mean the difference between staying in your feet that extra second and winning that extra inch.

.ak · 01-09-2015 10:34pm

For England I'd go with...

RK
Trimble
Payne
Henshaw
Zebo
Sexton
Reddan
Murphy
SOB
POM
POC
Ryan
Ross
Best
McGrath

Cronin
Healy
Furlong
Toner
Hendo
Murray
Madigan
Fitzgerald/DK

awec · 01-09-2015 10:40pm

There is absolutely no point in Trimble playing against England. A complete waste of time.

He should be released to play for Ulster on Friday night. That way he gets game time and Ireland aren't playing players outside the squad in a vital warm up game.

ionadnapokot · 01-09-2015 10:43pm

.ak wrote: »

Just watched the press con with joe. Have to say he looked very tired and a bit drawn out. You can tell this was literally the hardest squad selection of his career. The weight of the World Cup is becoming clear now, and the stuff he says about selection and calls being emotional isn't just a sound bite.

But of course that's just another reason why he's such a good coach. He may be a pedant and analytic in his approach but he's definitely a good man manager too and has a genuine connection with his players. That could mean the difference between staying in your feet that extra second and winning that extra inch.

+1
I thought during the summer tour to Arg when he was going on about Darren Cave as a genuine contender for the centre as just BS coach speak.

Stheno · 01-09-2015 10:49pm

awec wrote: »

There is absolutely no point in Trimble playing against England. A complete waste of time.

He should be released to play for Ulster on Friday night. That way he gets game time and Ireland aren't playing players outside the squad in a vital warm up game.

Could you not counter that by saying that him getting more time in the Irish team prepares him more if he's called up to replace an injury?

irishbucsfan · 01-09-2015 10:55pm

I think it's worth involving guys where one injury in a position would mean someone is coming from outside the environment is probably coming into the match day squad. IE loosehead, scrum half. In the other positions we should probably be looking to give game time to first XV guys because they're going to be held back at least partially against Romania and Canada and it's still over a month until the Italy game.

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 10:55pm

Stheno wrote: »

Could you not counter that by saying that him getting more time in the Irish team prepares him more if he's called up to replace an injury?

And counter that counter with D Kearney, Zebo and Bowe all need game time too and are more likely to feature in the RWC.

stephen_n · 01-09-2015 10:55pm

Did the not say Trimble had a reuccurence of the foot injury after playing for Ulster last week?

irishbucsfan · 01-09-2015 10:57pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Did the not say Trimble had a reuccurence of the foot injury after playing for Ulster last week?

No, after watching the press conference I don't think that's the case. He said trimble was in and out of the squad numerous times but ultimately the injury that recurred against Wales meant he didn't have enough time to make the squad. When referring to the injury he specifically referred to it happening between the Wales game and the 80 minutes for Ulster.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see Trimble at the world cup though. We have some pretty injury-prone guys in the squad...

Stheno · 01-09-2015 10:59pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Did the not say Trimble had a reuccurence of the foot injury after playing for Ulster last week?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, after watching the press conference I don't think that's the case. He said trimble was in and out of the squad numerous times but ultimately the injury that recurred against Wales meant he didn't have enough time to make the squad. When referring to the injury he specifically referred to it happening between the Wales game and the 80 minutes for Ulster.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see Trimble at the world cup though. We have some pretty injury-prone guys in the squad...

That's what I thought too, it was after the wales game that it recurred.

stephen_n · 01-09-2015 11:04pm

Ah right, heard a sound bite on the radio and thought it was referring to the Ulster game, but must be the Welsh game then.

I'd expect a near full strength team against England. A proper run out is required for our starting 15, now all the positional variations have been tried.

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-09-2015 11:06pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's worth involving guys where one injury in a position would mean someone is coming from outside the environment is probably coming into the match day squad. IE loosehead, scrum half. In the other positions we should probably be looking to give game time to first XV guys because they're going to be held back at least partially against Romania and Canada and it's still over a month until the Italy game.

So give Mad Dog a serious test at scrumhalf ?

bilston · 01-09-2015 11:18pm

awec wrote: »

There is absolutely no point in Trimble playing against England. A complete waste of time.

He should be released to play for Ulster on Friday night. That way he gets game time and Ireland aren't playing players outside the squad in a vital warm up game.

Also he could go and put in a man of the match shift, and while it would be exactly the reaction Joe would want, it would put big pressure on the wingers picked. Far better he gets his fitness and form playing for Ulster.

Besides Bowe needs to start this one, and he needs a big game too.

smiley_face · 01-09-2015 11:24pm

aimee1 wrote: »

look at JS press conference in RTE player and he mentions the training several times. its pretty clear he used the matches for specific purposes but most of his decisions were based in the past record of the player and his training performance this summer.

Listen to his media conference on the IRFU website explaining the selection process. He mentioned performance in training as well as performance in matches and positivity adding up to certain players getting selected.
I think it's past performance plus training performance plus attitude plus match performance. He obviously knows if players execute his instructions or not and if they replicated their training in the matches. So clearly all those things mattered towards selection. Also combinations of players factored into the selection process.
He also stated in an interview recently that the matches were a window to put your hand up for selection and those performances would be the litmus test if players were good enough to be selected.
To my mind the matches must have had some impact on the selections, at least to a degree, for a lot of the players. The matches weren't just for fitness and trying out backups combinations with the squad already selected.
He said they spent 6 hours deciding and went back and forth a bit on certain selections.
It could just be more spin, but I would have to conclude that the match performances gave some impact into the selections.

awec · 01-09-2015 11:25pm

bilston wrote: »

Also he could go and put in a man of the match shift, and while it would be exactly the reaction Joe would want, it would put big pressure on the wingers picked. Far better he gets his fitness and form playing for Ulster.

Besides Bowe needs to start this one, and he needs a big game too.

Yea it would be a very odd situation if that happened. Be a bit awkward to be honest.

aimee1 · 02-09-2015 8:11am

smiley_face wrote: »

Listen to his media conference on the IRFU website explaining the selection process. He mentioned performance in training as well as performance in matches and positivity adding up to certain players getting selected.
I think it's past performance plus training performance plus attitude plus match performance. He obviously knows if players execute his instructions or not and if they replicated their training in the matches. So clearly all those things mattered towards selection. Also combinations of players factored into the selection process.
He also stated in an interview recently that the matches were a window to put your hand up for selection and those performances would be the litmus test if players were good enough to be selected.
To my mind the matches must have had some impact on the selections, at least to a degree, for a lot of the players. The matches weren't just for fitness and trying out backups combinations with the squad already selected.
He said they spent 6 hours deciding and went back and forth a bit on certain selections.
It could just be more spin, but I would have to conclude that the match performances gave some impact into the selections.

Thats what i mean when i said he used matches for specific purposes. What we looked at and what JS looked for would be worlds apart. Which explains some selections and some post match comments about a player going well when most people thought they had quiet games.

Buer · 02-09-2015 8:20am

Was very interesting to hear Schmidt's comments. It sounded like a gruelling process. When he was discussing the Bent/Furlong selection, he admitted Bent's name was on the sheet, then off the sheet repeatedly. That must be heartening and crushing for Bent to hear in equal measure.

Had to laugh when he said that he was probably more emotional than Trimble when he gave him the news. I always reckoned Trimble would be up against it after being absent since October but if he hadn't hurt his foot again, I've no doubt he'd have been on the plane. In terms of the out and out wingers, DK stepping up probably sealed his fate.

Still completely baffled with the Madigan covering 9 selection. With Cave travelling, I think we've too many outside backs. Fitz, Earls, Bowe, DK, RK, Zebo. I honestly think we could have omitted one of them (probably Earls or Fitz, especially with them picking up some knocks) and gone with a second string backline of Boss/Marmion, Jackson, Madigan, Cave, DK, Fitz/Earls, Zebo.

I'd see that as far less risky than what we've gone with.

QuinDixie · 02-09-2015 8:41am

If Ireland reach the semi finals it will be a great achievement by Schmidt and the whole squad.
Reaching the final will be very hard, England are at home, Australia and South Africa have the history and Wales seem to have our card and most importantly if any of Best, OBrien, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, OConnell get injured we will be in serious trouble.

Taking 2 scrum halves is a real gamble.

If Murray gets a slight knock before the French or italy game we will 2 options:
- have Madigan as replacement 9 and redddan starting.
- replace Murray in the squad meaning he cannot come back into squad
Both options will see us exit the world Cup by or before QF stage.

That squad named will see changes due to injuries anyway, its so common in rugby, before and during the world cup. What I describe above has a very good chance of happening, it seems a strange decision to me to bring only two 9's.
Delighted for Cave, Earls and Fitzgerald. Earls, I feel, is going to make this world cup his own.

02-09-2015 8:41am

Buer wrote: »

Had to laugh when he said that he was probably more emotional than Trimble

I remember when the recession hit in the company I was in at the time the staff numbers dropped to around 3 people from nearly 20 (I was one of the 3).

I noted a couple of times that the owners looked more emotional after rounds of redundancies than the staff did. Not an easy or enviable job, despite obviously being much worse for the person being let go / not making the cut.

That said, I'm sure Trimble new he was up against it to make the team - it's just a bit cruel that he was almost back and available just to have one more small set back.

Awesomeness · 02-09-2015 8:47am

I think one of the things Joe has done with the backs is to implement different tactics. Depending on whether we have Dave K and Bowe there or Zebo and Fitz we could implement different game plans and gives more options

connachta · 02-09-2015 8:47am

connachta wrote: »

Oh do you want some direct quotes? Will take a while, but i can easily find them

connachta wrote: »

Sorry, it was on the international topic. Never mind though. There are other ones

smiley_face wrote: »

Really though?

The games are much less important in determining the make up of the squad than you seem to be suggesting.

Dave Kearney has barely been on the field. By your logic he hasn't a chance, but he's being suggested by the media as have a very good change to make the squad. Why? Because the squad is going to be selected primarily based on what they've been doing at Carton House, not what they've been doing in mickey mouse warm up games.

That's about international friendlies. Fact. Under-estimation of the games against Wales and Scotland was general here, nevertheless it costs Trimble place, partly at least

Noopti · 02-09-2015 8:51am

I think some articles are spot on this morning highlighting that now the squad has been named it has lifted a massive weight of Joe's shoulders and he will relish being able to focus on this group of players and preparing them for what lies ahead.

CatFromHue · 02-09-2015 9:02am

We do have alot of outside backs but still only 1 out and out centre and 1 out and out FB and I'm not sure how keen Schmidt is on Madigan covering centre either.

I don't think we'll see much of Madigan at 9 either, I'd say he's only the break in extreme emergency option.

vienne86 · 02-09-2015 9:08am

Noopti wrote: »

I think some articles are spot on this morning highlighting that now the squad has been named it has lifted a massive weight of Joe's shoulders and he will relish being able to focus on this group of players and preparing them for what lies ahead.

I'd say your're right - and it will calm us posters down as well.

rrpc · 02-09-2015 9:15am

connachta wrote: »

That's about international friendlies. Fact. Under-estimation of the games against Wales and Scotland was general here, nevertheless it costs Trimble place, partly at least

A few posts above this one is a reference to Trimble's injury against Wales being the deciding factor, not his performance which imo was very good until he limped off.

connachta · 02-09-2015 9:44am

rrpc wrote: »

A few posts above this one is a reference to Trimble's injury against Wales being the deciding factor, not his performance which imo was very good until he limped off.

The issue is he couldn't proove his consistant performance, and Schmidt wanted it so "Mickey mouse" games mattered more than the quote above predicted

smiley_face · 02-09-2015 9:45am

rrpc wrote: »

A few posts above this one is a reference to Trimble's injury against Wales being the deciding factor, not his performance which imo was very good until he limped off.

He had a great 34 minutes, but as he hadn't enough chance to back up that performance again in the subsequent training sessions and matches for Ireland, he missed out.
The match he played for Ulster doesn't seem to have been enough to get him into the squad.
No doubt in my mind though, he is the first choice replacement in the event that any of the selected wingers get injured.

smiley_face · 02-09-2015 10:03am

QuinDixie wrote: »

If Ireland reach the semi finals it will be a great achievement by Schmidt and the whole squad.
Reaching the final will be very hard, England are at home, Australia and South Africa have the history and Wales seem to have our card and most importantly if any of Best, OBrien, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, OConnell get injured we will be in serious trouble.

Taking 2 scrum halves is a real gamble.

If Murray gets a slight knock before the French or italy game we will 2 options:
- have Madigan as replacement 9 and redddan starting.
- replace Murray in the squad meaning he cannot come back into squad
Both options will see us exit the world Cup by or before QF stage.

That squad named will see changes due to injuries anyway, its so common in rugby, before and during the world cup. What I describe above has a very good chance of happening, it seems a strange decision to me to bring only two 9's.
Delighted for Cave, Earls and Fitzgerald. Earls, I feel, is going to make this world cup his own.

If an injury occurs to any of the following players: Cave, Earls, Fitzgerald, Dave Kearney, it may be an idea then to bring in Boss or Marmion instead of Trimble. (Would replace Bowe with Trimble)
I suppose it depends if Murray or Reddan have picked up any niggles, and how well the other wingers are performing, and how well Trimble, Boss and Marmion play in the Pro12 over the next few weeks.

aimee1 · 02-09-2015 10:13am

connachta wrote: »

The issue is he couldn't proove his consistant performance, and Schmidt wanted it so "Mickey mouse" games mattered more than the quote above predicted

I think its more a case of the recurring injury hampered his ability to train and play, not his performance as such. Trimble put in a very good 34 minutes against Wales a few weeks ago but he got injured.

Its clear from the JS conference that credit in the bank, training and then the warm ups were all part of his thought process. Its no surprise really but the warm ups were only part of his selection process for 3-4 spots. Most/all of the rest were pretty much already decided upon.

total former · 02-09-2015 10:17am

connachta wrote: »

The issue is he couldn't proove his consistant performance, and Schmidt wanted it so "Mickey mouse" games mattered more than the quote above predicted

I'm so confused. The "mickey mouse" quote referred to the provinces' warm-up games.

Trimble came through 80 minutes in the Ulster game (and scored a try) and it didn't change the coach's mind.

On the other hand, Joe said that Cave's performance against Wales and his contribution in training is what won him the place in the squad. Just like Donnacha Ryan sealed his spot based entirely on the first Wales game. So performances for Ireland and in Ireland camp counted, performances for provinces seemed to count for very little.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

irishbucsfan · 02-09-2015 10:21am

connachta wrote: »

The issue is he couldn't proove his consistant performance, and Schmidt wanted it so "Mickey mouse" games mattered more than the quote above predicted

Nope, they didn't.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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