Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

Phil.x · 01-02-2018 9:51am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Taxis out of collage green. 24/7

Why?

LeinsterDub · 01-02-2018 10:36am

Phil.x wrote: »

Why?

Because quite simply there isn't enough space and they don't need to be there

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 11:37am

You could very easily force taxis to turn back from College Street onto Westmoreland, to turn around on Dame Street at the existing turnback just before the Grattan Statue, and to turn right from Dawson Street onto Nassau Street, and that would remove them from the most tricky parts of the College Green layout.

By my reckoning, if you did this, the maximum distance that a taxi passenger would have to walk from being dropped off at one of those turn-arounds would be about 350m (College Street to Dawson Street), which seems like a perfectly reasonable distance to me, and it's an extreme example anyway.

Ernest · 01-02-2018 11:50am

MJohnston wrote: »

You could very easily force taxis to turn back from College Street onto Westmoreland, to turn around on Dame Street at the existing turnback just before the Grattan Statue, and to turn right from Dawson Street onto Nassau Street, and that would remove them from the most tricky parts of the College Green layout.

By my reckoning, if you did this, the maximum distance that a taxi passenger would have to walk from being dropped off at one of those turn-arounds would be about 350m (College Street to Dawson Street), which seems like a perfectly reasonable distance to me, and it's an extreme example anyway.

350 metres does not seem a reasonable distance to me!

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 11:57am

Ernest wrote: »

350 metres does not seem a reasonable distance to me!

If you worked in Arnotts, you'd have to walk at least 200m to get a taxi.

350m is literally the longest possible example, the average on-foot journey there would be much shorter.

Wheety · 01-02-2018 12:12pm

I have taken to getting off the bus at the Four Courts and walking the 20-25 minutes to Hatch Street. Just takes so long for the bus to get from there to around Kildare Street/Stephen's Green.

At least I'm hitting almost half of my 10,000 steps before I even get into work

Phil.x · 01-02-2018 1:02pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Because quite simply there isn't enough space and they don't need to be there

24hrs?

dashcamdanny · 01-02-2018 1:40pm

Phil.x wrote: »

24hrs?

Im not sure if many people notice, but every weekend night is gridlock also, with weekend warrior taxi drivers. Even week nights.
Stopping anywhere they like. Like the Dame street filter lane for Georges street. Bang on the hazards and wait for a fair. Blocking the street. Not one F**k given.

Their behaviour is as bad as the rickshaws. At least the rickshaws dont take much space.

LeinsterDub · 01-02-2018 1:43pm

Phil.x wrote: »

24hrs?

Yes , with the Luas and upcoming plaza it simply not feasible anymore. 350 meters isn't that far to walk.

devnull · 01-02-2018 1:44pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Im not sure if many people notice, but every weekend night is gridlock also, with weekend warrior taxi drivers. Even week nights.
Stopping anywhere they like. Like the Dame street filter lane for Georges street. Bang on the hazards and wait for a fair. Blocking the street. Not one F**k given.

Their behaviour is as bad as the rickshaws. At least the rickshaws dont take much space.

Yeah - many times been in Dublin City Center after midnight after getting Aircoach from the airport and the place was full of a massive traffic jam full of nothing but taxis - I assumed the journey would be relatively quick at night the first time I took it but I was very much mistaken.

Phil.x · 01-02-2018 2:06pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yes , with the Luas and upcoming plaza it simply not feasible anymore. 350 meters isn't that far to walk.

But trams stop around 12.00/12.30 as do buses, so why the 24hr? is it to give the road a rest?

LeinsterDub · 01-02-2018 2:48pm

Phil.x wrote: »

But trams stop around 12.00/12.30 as do buses, so why the 24hr? is it to give the road a rest?

Why are Henry St, Grafton St etc pedestrian only for 24 hours?
It's just easier to implement, if you want a token five and a half hours at night grand no objections here

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 3:09pm

I'd leave taxis to have access on nights from say midnight to 7am or something, I think that's largely fine, and they'll only be mostly causing gridlock for other taxis between midnight and 3am, while the roads will be pretty quiet between 3 and 7.

cgcsb · 01-02-2018 3:20pm

There are night luas services in December. You'd have to let taxis have night access 00:30 to 05:00 except December, no point really.

MJohnston · 01-02-2018 3:22pm

Wheety wrote: »

I have taken to getting off the bus at the Four Courts and walking the 20-25 minutes to Hatch Street. Just takes so long for the bus to get from there to around Kildare Street/Stephen's Green.

At least I'm hitting almost half of my 10,000 steps before I even get into work

If you can, I'd very much recommend getting a Dublin Bikes subscription, as you'll be able to hop on a bike at Capel Street (presuming there are any) and take a fairly direct route up Parliament Street, Dame Street, and George's Street, to get to Hatch Street. Very little in terms of inclines to that route too, so it's not a sweaty one!

Even if the stations end up empty at Capel, you'll still be walking in the same direction anyway, and it'll be a less than 10 minute cycle vs a 25 minute walk!

Phil.x · 01-02-2018 3:38pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why are Henry St, Grafton St etc pedestrian only for 24 hours?
It's just easier to implement, if you want a token five and a half hours at night grand no objections here

Because they are the two main shopping streets.
College Green isn't a shopping street.

LeinsterDub · 01-02-2018 4:05pm

Phil.x wrote: »

Because they are the two main shopping streets.
College Green isn't a shopping street.

But sure all the shops are closed by 7 , by your logic we are resting the road for 12 hours .

Wheety · 01-02-2018 6:06pm

MJohnston wrote: »

If you can, I'd very much recommend getting a Dublin Bikes subscription, as you'll be able to hop on a bike at Capel Street (presuming there are any) and take a fairly direct route up Parliament Street, Dame Street, and George's Street, to get to Hatch Street. Very little in terms of inclines to that route too, so it's not a sweaty one!

Even if the stations end up empty at Capel, you'll still be walking in the same direction anyway, and it'll be a less than 10 minute cycle vs a 25 minute walk!

Aye, I have cycled it a few times too. Not a bad oul walk though. Actually just renewed my subscription last week.

Hugh Jampton · 01-02-2018 6:42pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

But sure all the shops are closed by 7 , by your logic we are resting the road for 12 hours .

If the buggers are kept out they won’t need any taxpayer funded infrastructure

Phil.x · 01-02-2018 8:21pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

But sure all the shops are closed by 7 , by your logic we are resting the road for 12 hours .

Your talking like a defeated person...give it up.

monument · 02-02-2018 12:39am

Phil.x wrote: »

Your talking like a defeated person...give it up.

His post was focused on tackling your last point, while your new post quoted here is an non-productive post.

— moderator

fritzelly · 02-02-2018 6:46pm

Unbelievable the amount of taxis for hire occupying d'olier st right now, buses can't move

fritzelly · 02-02-2018 10:44pm

Came across an old article
http://www.dailyedge.ie/how-small-is-ireland-1626264-Aug2014/

Point 5 is funny

God forbid the city was ever really busy

On another point, most European cities have small trams flying around the city quite successfully - what is the logic behind having a large luas (and larger to come) for a small city?
Is it just a case of money and paying lots of drivers

markpb · 03-02-2018 10:41am

fritzelly wrote: »

On another point, most European cities have small trams flying around the city quite successfully - what is the logic behind having a large luas (and larger to come) for a small city?
Is it just a case of money and paying lots of drivers

I suspect the difference is those cities have a bigger network of tram lines and possibly a decent heavy rail network so each individual tram line has a normal catchment. Dublin is so poorly served by rail that each of our tram lines are quite long, serve a huge catchment area and also serve large p&r car parks.

Sierra Oscar · 05-02-2018 6:11pm

Did they change the traffic light priority at College Green over the weekend?

I got through quicker than usual this morning on the 38 bus. It was the first time I noticed a tram heading south-bound stopped at the signal just after the Trinity stop to allow buses pass through.

It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the week goes.

Stevek101 · 05-02-2018 9:12pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0205/938569-college-green-luas/

I wonder will a complete closure now take place.

fritzelly · 05-02-2018 9:21pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0205/938569-college-green-luas/

I wonder will a complete closure now take place.

So they're admitting that the Luas is the cause of all the congestion that didn't really exist pre Luas

And what exactly is the point of the Plaza (even the name is a joke)? To get people sitting looking at bars, restaurants and crappy old shops. It's nothing like the plazas you would see in other European cities surrounded by coffee shops, and all kinds of interesting shops and usually a good few interesting touristy buildings

budgemook · 05-02-2018 9:35pm

fritzelly wrote: »

So they're admitting that the Luas is the cause of all the congestion that didn't really exist pre Luas

And what exactly is the point of the Plaza (even the name is a joke)? To get people sitting looking at bars, restaurants and crappy old shops. It's nothing like the plazas you would see in other European cities surrounded by coffee shops, and all kinds of interesting shops and usually a good few interesting touristy buildings

College green has touristy buildings - Trinity and the Bank of Ireland.

Chris_5339762 · 05-02-2018 9:35pm

Well I came through on Sunday evening and it was silly. The luas stopped at the lights. Then the lights went green for pedestrians. Then they went red again. Then they went green for cars, then red. Only then could the Luas go. Took what felt like an age to get across College Green and this was on a Sunday night.

fritzelly · 05-02-2018 9:43pm

budgemook wrote: »

College green has touristy buildings - Trinity and the Bank of Ireland.

Trinity College already has a big space inside lol

AlekSmart · 05-02-2018 10:20pm

fritzelly wrote: »

So they're admitting that the Luas is the cause of all the congestion that didn't really exist pre Luas

And what exactly is the point of the Plaza (even the name is a joke)? To get people sitting looking at bars, restaurants and crappy old shops. It's nothing like the plazas you would see in other European cities surrounded by coffee shops, and all kinds of interesting shops and usually a good few interesting touristy buildings

Given that we are dealing (coping ?) with a Council which has been reluctant to provide useable seating generally in the City Centre,I cannot see them suddenly shedding the habits of a lifetime.

The city council had hoped to have a pedestrian plaza on College Green with a ban on all east-west traffic, including buses, for the introduction of the Luas.

Irrespective of what the Council had "Hoped",the reality is a situation which, could & should have been fully dealt with BEFORE a sod was turned on BXD.

It is almost as if the Asst CEO,Mr Brady,has just been beamed down into An Lár from a far distant planet and is totally gobsmacked by what he is experiencing.

It is hardly a surprise that Dublin has,so far,failed to capitalize on London's Post-Bexit situation,a failure being rather spetacularly underlined by the antics of this gang. :mad:

prinzeugen · 06-02-2018 1:52am

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0205/938569-college-green-luas/

I wonder will a complete closure now take place.

I said a week or two back that this would happen. Plaza by stealth.

They say that they don't have a vendetta against private motor vehicles.

They have a vendetta against ALL motor (or internal combustion engines if you are picky) vehicles, buses included.

The best use of College Green is for it to be used by people to get from A- B. That is why it was laid out like it is. Not for it to be a wasteland.

AlekSmart · 06-02-2018 7:11am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I said a week or two back that this would happen. Plaza by stealth.

They say that they don't have a vendetta against private motor vehicles.

They have a vendetta against ALL motor (or internal combustion engines if you are picky) vehicles, buses included.

The best use of College Green is for it to be used by people to get from A- B. That is why it was laid out like it is. Not for it to be a wasteland.

Those who designed and laid-out Georgian Dublin,were possessed of a lot more common-sense and focus than Mr Keegan and his "Team",who have bitterly continued with a crusade to ignore the realities of Life,and replace it with......?

I'm no longer certain that DCC actually have any real plan,or plans at all.

Increasingly,it all appears made up as they go along.

Hurrache · 06-02-2018 9:56am

prinzeugen wrote: »

The best use of College Green is for it to be used by people to get from A- B. That is why it was laid out like it is. Not for it to be a wasteland.

It is a wasteland as is, nobody can logically argue otherwise.

lawred2 · 06-02-2018 9:58am

Bambi wrote: »

So they bottled it and moved the buses rather than cars and taxis

I don't think it will make much of a difference either

cars have been precluded from College Green at busy times for a long while already

whenever I went around that way - it was only buses parked bumper to bumper that I saw

lawred2 · 06-02-2018 10:05am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Those who designed and laid-out Georgian Dublin,were possessed of a lot more common-sense and focus than Mr Keegan and his "Team",who have bitterly continued with a crusade to ignore the realities of Life,and replace it with......?

I'm no longer certain that DCC actually have any real plan,or plans at all.

Increasingly,it all appears made up as they go along.

those that 'laid out' Georgian Dublin did not have to cater for the not yet invented ICE.

People cycled, walked and traveled around in low speed horse and cart in Georgian Dublin... that sounds rather idyllic to be honest. Compared to what we have now.

punisher5112 · 06-02-2018 11:36am

Hybrid, and electric buses are the next thing so much cleaner then anything previous.

LeinsterDub · 06-02-2018 12:17pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hybrid, and electric buses are the next thing so much cleaner then anything previous.

Still occupy the same amount of road space.

punisher5112 · 06-02-2018 12:49pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Still occupy the same amount of road space.

Of course they do and will always serve more then a tram or train which is fixed on rails.

Buses can divert if needed and extra ones for capacity etc.

Trams and trains are limited as they can't overtake also.

What they done at college green is a design fcuk up and as is actually dangerous.

The two traffic lanes meet and large vehicles cross over opposite sides, cyclists have a lane which yes should be great but no a bus stop is right at the end of it which is near impossible for the driver to see as they must turn sharp to cross to the left.

Cyclists using the tram line heading south and can't be seen be vehicles in traffic lane.

It's actually terrible how it has been laid out.

bk · 06-02-2018 6:58pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course they do and will always serve more then a tram or train which is fixed on rails.

Actually that isn't true. Trams and rail almost always carry far more passengers then equivalent bus services along the same corridor/route. That is true of both Dart and the two Luas lines, as it is all around the world.

What the issue you have here is you have dozens of different bus routes, coming from different directions/areas trying to merge into one small area. A recipe for disaster. It was a disaster before the Luas came to the city center, which is why we had the bus gate to try and relieve it. But the An Larism of Dublin Bus has long been an issue for the city.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Buses can divert if needed and extra ones for capacity etc.

Trams and trains are limited as they can't overtake also.

That inflexibility of trams and rail is also a significant advantage. They can't be rerouted, they mostly can't be bullied out of the way by cars and taxis. Politicians and car park owners can't mess with them too much or have them redirected.

In this inflexibility lies their strength. They are much more reliable and consistent then buses and that is why people love them.

They tend to have a gravity about them that changes all other transport and infrastructure around them. Something buses just can't do.

What we are seeing here is the fight for limited road space.

AlekSmart · 06-02-2018 7:15pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course they do and will always serve more then a tram or train which is fixed on rails.

Buses can divert if needed and extra ones for capacity etc.

Trams and trains are limited as they can't overtake also.

What they done at college green is a design fcuk up and as is actually dangerous.

The two traffic lanes meet and large vehicles cross over opposite sides, cyclists have a lane which yes should be great but no a bus stop is right at the end of it which is near impossible for the driver to see as they must turn sharp to cross to the left.

Cyclists using the tram line heading south and can't be seen be vehicles in traffic lane.

It's actually terrible how it has been laid out.

The two elements bolded in the above post,should be enough to sustain charges of Proffessional Negligence being laid against those Planners who were brave (or dopey) enough to sign off on this project.

The level of (newly) imposed additional risk is off-the-scale,and indicates that no Risk Assessment exercise was carried out on these elements of BXD.

The only priority,it appears,was to reinstate the Bus Stop infrastructure as close as possible to where it was pre BXD,and having achieved that,to whistle a gay tune as they sauntered away.

To suggest that the current layout at Westmoreland St Bus Stop 320,even comes close to being acceptably safe is just plain wrong.

It does not require a University Degree,or membership of the Freemasons,to see this...instead all it requires is a basic National School level of education,and perhaps a Driving Licence.

It is a dangerous and totally unnecessary compromise,and one which has the immediate and ever present potential to result in serious injury or death,simply to maintain the pretence of the Capital City having somewhat competent management,when the reality as laid bare here,proves the opposite.

It may well be that,it will take the appearance of a Senior Planner in the dock of a court,on charges of contributory criminal negligence,to actually bring these people to their senses...but it should never have been allowed to get this far.

"Terrible" does'nt do the situation justice,at all ! :eek:

AlekSmart · 06-02-2018 7:26pm

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true. Trams and rail almost always carry far more passengers then equivalent bus services along the same corridor/route. That is true of both Dart and the two Luas lines, as it is all around the world.

What the issue you have here is you have dozens of different bus routes, coming from different directions/areas trying to merge into one small area. A recipe for disaster. It was a disaster before the Luas came to the city center, which is why we had the bus gate to try and relieve it. But the An Larism of Dublin Bus has long been an issue for the city.

That inflexibility of trams and rail is also a significant advantage. They can't be rerouted, they mostly can't be bullied out of the way by cars and taxis. Politicians and car park owners can't mess with them too much or have them redirected.

In this inflexibility lies their strength. They are much more reliable and consistent then buses and that is why people love them.

They tend to have a gravity about them that changes all other transport and infrastructure around them. Something buses just can't do.

What we are seeing here is the fight for limited road space.

The issue is not what mode is superior or preferable,but instead a quite simple question of :eek: WHY :eek: are we only now seeing this "fight" for limited road space being engaged in.

7 years ago,before a sod was turned on the BXD project,the dimensions of the LRT vehicles was known,the swept area of the Vehicles known,down to the millimetre,as well as the same details for Buses....all of these elements being central to the simple mathematics of designing and implementing a system whereby ALL of the modes could operate complimentary to each other.

Instead,we barged about,in a fully planned manner,allowing each of the stakeholders to carry on as if nothing as changing,and at the end of it all,we would somehow manage to slip the entire thing together and MAKE it work...easy eh ?

This is not a "Fight" that should ever have come close to being staged,as in a functional Civic Planning arena,it would have been dispensed with as undesireable,unnecessary and anti-social...all elements which it appears,appeal greatly to our current Civic Leadership.

Spanish Eyes · 06-02-2018 9:30pm

I blame DCC. They did no planning whatsoever for this. But more than likely knew the results.

But maybe they are hiding in the long grass and the unpalatable things to be decided on will have to be implemented now that commuters are complaining big time.

Clever that.

But IMV very unprofessional.

lawred2 · 06-02-2018 10:06pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I blame DCC. They did no planning whatsoever for this. But more than likely knew the results.

But maybe they are hiding in the long grass and the unpalatable things to be decided on will have to be implemented now that commuters are complaining big time.

Clever that.

But IMV very unprofessional.

Not so sure.. Irish people are not the greatest at accepting change. So why bother engaging with them?

bk · 07-02-2018 2:49am

AlekSmart wrote: »

The issue is not what mode is superior or preferable,but instead a quite simple question of :eek: WHY :eek: are we only now seeing this "fight" for limited road space being engaged in.

Hold on their a minute, this fight for limited road space has been going on for decades now. Cars vs Buses vs Taxis vs Cyclists vs Pedestrians.

The cries when Grafton Street was pedestrianised or the bus gate introduced or bus lanes introduced.

This is just a new chapter in this same story.

AlekSmart · 07-02-2018 7:21am

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a minute, this fight for limited road space has been going on for decades now. Cars vs Buses vs Taxis vs Cyclists vs Pedestrians.

The cries when Grafton Street was pedestrianised or the bus gate introduced or bus lanes introduced.

This is just a new chapter in this same story.

All well and good,however in those decades it might have been assumed that we had learned as we progressed.

With the current situation,what we are witnessing,in real time,is the very stark evidence that we have been led and represented by a coterie of professional Civic Managers who downplayed,ignored and manipulated the situation and most certainly did nothing in the way of Leadership to innovate and provide sustainable solutions relevant to Dublin.

Edge tinkering,along with a true lack of comprehension relating to the demands of Urban Living,has left Dublin with a good collection of the elements required for effective Public Transport,but absolutely nobody of note with the ability to combine and operate them.

budgemook · 07-02-2018 9:46am

What time in the m does college green get bad? because I haven't seen any problems since Dublin Bus made the route changes.

lawred2 · 07-02-2018 11:32am

AlekSmart wrote: »

All well and good,however in those decades it might have been assumed that we had learned as we progressed.

With the current situation,what we are witnessing,in real time,is the very stark evidence that we have been led and represented by a coterie of professional Civic Managers who downplayed,ignored and manipulated the situation and most certainly did nothing in the way of Leadership to innovate and provide sustainable solutions relevant to Dublin.

Edge tinkering,along with a true lack of comprehension relating to the demands of Urban Living,has left Dublin with a good collection of the elements required for effective Public Transport,but absolutely nobody of note with the ability to combine and operate them.

I'd prefer the direction of a coterie of professional civic managers than amateur part-time self appointed transport experts.

bebeman · 07-02-2018 11:40am

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd prefer the direction of a coterie of professional civic managers than amateur part-time self appointed transport experts.

All evidence so far suggests that the amateurs could not mess up any worse than the professionals.

StreetLight · 07-02-2018 11:56am

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd prefer the direction of a coterie of professional civic managers than amateur part-time self appointed transport experts.

Laughable. That's exactly what you've got. How do you like it so far?

Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

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