The Hazards of Belief

smacl · 15-12-2018 1:01pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Catholic Archbishop: If Your Religion Contradicts the Law, Ignore the Law

Allahu Akbar! Kill the infidel! It's only a law, right?

A bit more detail in the IT article on it here. Seems like the pope is talking to Zappone behind Martin's back as well which has ruffled his feathers somewhat. He strikes me as someone who is flailing against opposition from all sides.

In another article I see that Dr Angelo Bottone of Iona is suing Twitter

Dr Bottone secured an order directing Twitter International Company to disclose to him details of the holder of the @ElodieBurke account, whom he alleges defamed him.

The orders compel Twitter to provide Dr Bottone information disclosing the identity of the account user’s name, address, telephone number, e mail address, IP addresses used to access that twitter account, and other information Twitter holds relating to the user of the account.

Makes for a interesting precedent, in that if you make comments anonymously on a site, and those comments are then considered defamatory, your identity could subsequently be exposed for purposes of prosecution. I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out, seems contrary to what GDPR is all about. I would have thought that defamation would have to be substantially proven before the person's privacy could be disclosed to an antagonist.

Odhinn · 15-12-2018 3:03pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Catholic Archbishop: If Your Religion Contradicts the Law, Ignore the Law

Allahu Akbar! Kill the infidel! It's only a law, right?

The worry would be that the archbishops notion of moral objection would include/go as far as, refusal to refer a patient on to a doctor who will refer patients for abortion..

Odhinn · 15-12-2018 3:05pm

smacl wrote: »

A bit more detail in the IT article on it here. Seems like the pope is talking to Zappone behind Martin's back as well which has ruffled his feathers somewhat. He strikes me as someone who is flailing against opposition from all sides.

In another article I see that Dr Angelo Bottone of Iona is suing Twitter

Makes for a interesting precedent, in that if you make comments anonymously on a site, and those comments are then considered defamatory, your identity could subsequently be exposed for purposes of prosecution. I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out, seems contrary to what GDPR is all about. I would have thought that defamation would have to be substantially proven before the person's privacy could be disclosed to an antagonist.

Marin wasn't in favour with Benny either. 'breached the chain of command' with regards to public statements etc seemed to be at the roots of it.

Anyone any idea what these defamatory statements were?

smacl · 15-12-2018 3:30pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Anyone any idea what these defamatory statements were?

Nope, seem to have been taken down from Twitter at this point.

oscarBravo · 15-12-2018 5:06pm

smacl wrote: »

Makes for a interesting precedent, in that if you make comments anonymously on a site, and those comments are then considered defamatory, your identity could subsequently be exposed for purposes of prosecution. I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out, seems contrary to what GDPR is all about. I would have thought that defamation would have to be substantially proven before the person's privacy could be disclosed to an antagonist.

Note: Bottone secured an order. That means that he went to court, and convinced that court that there's a prima facie case for defamation.

GDPR doesn't convey immunity from due process.

Odhinn · 15-12-2018 6:59pm

Hard to know where to begin with this, really.

"Parents of a teenage boy who took his own life have complained after their Catholic priest criticised him at the funeral for killing himself.
Father Don LaCuesta in the service questioned whether Maison Hullibarger, 18, would enter heaven, horrifying his parents and family."

"We wanted him to celebrate how Maison lived, not how he died," Ms Hullibarger told the Detroit Free Press.
But the priest used the service at the Our Lady of Mount Carmel Catholic church to attack their child.
"He was up there condemning our son, pretty much calling him a sinner," Mr Hullibarger said. "He wondered if he had repented enough to make it to heaven. He said 'suicide' upwards of six times."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46578619

smacl · 15-12-2018 7:14pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Hard to know where to begin with this, really.

It is. Deeply insensitive of the priest. It does beg the question though as to why you'd subscribe to a religion that considers suicide a sin, and want a burial according the rituals of that religion in the first instance.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2018 10:50pm

People who are religious seem to increasingly embrace religion for the feel-good "good stuff" and don't want to hear about the "bad stuff" like doctrines, etc.

How many christians today openly talk about hell? Very few. But it's a core doctrine and the nuns in the 1970s were very open about it... It's not marketable any more. Talk about love and paradise and sh!t like that instead, it's more attractive to potential punters.

robindch · 17-12-2018 4:28pm

joseph brand wrote: »

An old, creepy, breast-fondling farmer? More of a healing grope than touch. The lord does indeed work in mysterious ways.

Prescient indeed.

Following multiple allegations of sexual misconduct and a failure to turn up at an agreed time at the local copshop, it seems that Joao Teixeira de Faria, aka "John of God", is on the run:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46583764

BBC News wrote:

Nine Brazilian women, who remained anonymous, also told Globo TV that the self-declared healer had abused them on the premise of transferring his "cleansing" energy

Odhinn · 17-12-2018 8:38pm

"The Maryland Province Jesuits, a Catholic religious order with priests serving throughout the Washington area and across eight states, released a list Monday of priests in the order who have been “credibly accused” of abusing children since the 1950s.
The admission by the Jesuit order, which is widely known for educating youths in its high schools and colleges, comes at a time when Catholic institutions are under tremendous pressure to respond more transparently to claims of sexual abuse by priests.
Religious orders -- including the Jesuits, the Catholic church’s largest male order with almost 17,000 priests and brothers -- have been particularly criticized by victims' advocates for their opacity. In October, the major umbrella organization for male orders urged the groups to publish names of their accused members, and on Monday, the Maryland Province Jesuits did just that, naming five living Jesuits, three who left the order after being accused of misconduct, and five who have died."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2018/12/17/jesuits-name-priests-credibly-accused-sexually-abusing-children-including-dc-area/?utm_term=.29ae57ed264b

I doubt that level of transparency would be displayed here, either in the Jesuit order or the Holy ghost/"spiritans" (as they're now known).

robindch · 18-12-2018 2:23am

Fine Gael TD Kate O’Connell has introduced a bill to cut down fake cancer treatment ads:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/there-was-bonkers-stuff-i-was-told-negative-energy-contributed-to-my-cancer-1.3729356

The text of the bill as it stands at the moment is here:

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2018/139/eng/initiated/b13918d.pdf

robindch · 18-12-2018 11:12am

robindch wrote: »

[...] Joao Teixeira de Faria, aka "John of God", is on the run:

No longer:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46585542

recedite · 22-12-2018 11:55am

oscarBravo wrote: »

He was stabbed several times in the chest and throat. If he had been stabbed by a non-Muslim, it would have been obvious that when you're stabbing someone who's facing you, the chest and throat are likely targets. But when it's a Muslim doing the stabbing, suddenly the victim "had his throat cut" and it's presented as "halal" and "ritual".

But I'm sure that has nothing whatsoever to do with prejudice.

Killed "with extreme prejudice"; two women who lacked prejudice to the point of naivety.
These brave lions of the Islamic State must be so proud. Consider for a moment the toxicity of an ideology that can reliably make young men with a set of grievances no different from those faced by humans throughout history join a group of other males and take a knife to the throat of a female stranger and saw her head off while she's screaming in terror, begging for mercy and still struggling to live. And consider the mindset of those taken in by this ideology who are excited by and approve of such things.

And consider also the part played by those in the educated west whose role is to sweep such barbarism under the carpet, in order to protect the reputation of the ideology. Thereby leaving victims such as these, vulnerable to its most terrible effects. Young Scandinavians have been brainwashed from an early age by their education system into having this vulnerability. The Irish are not far behind.

oscarBravo · 22-12-2018 3:26pm

recedite wrote: »

Consider for a moment the toxicity of an ideology that can reliably make young men with a set of grievances no different from those faced by humans throughout history join a group of other males and take a knife to the throat of a female stranger and saw her head off while she's screaming in terror, begging for mercy and still struggling to live.

Assuming that you're on one of your "all Muslims are utterly evil beyond redemption" rants, you might want to update your dictionary, because whatever definition of "reliable" is in it could do with revision.

recedite · 22-12-2018 5:53pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

you might want to update your dictionary, because whatever definition of "reliable" is in it could do with revision.

Is that all you have to say? A pedantic argument against my use of the word "reliable".

And a reminder that "its obvious that when you're stabbing someone who's facing you, the chest and throat are likely targets".
Sure it could happen to anyone, anywhere.

oscarBravo · 22-12-2018 6:12pm

recedite wrote: »

Is that all you have to say?

I'm not sure what you want me to say. You seem to have come to the conclusion that the brutal murder of two women was swept under the carpet. There's no rational response to that level of self-delusion.

Odhinn · 22-12-2018 7:35pm

recedite wrote: »

Is that all you have to say? A pedantic argument against my use of the word "reliable".

A.................

It's not pedantic. Your little diatribe would imply that this is ok with mainstream islam, which it clearly isn't.

robindch · 23-12-2018 11:16am

recedite wrote: »

And consider also the part played by those in the educated west whose role is to sweep such barbarism under the carpet, in order to protect the reputation of the ideology.

Who is sweeping this stuff under the carpet in order to "protect the ideology"?

You are making two claims here - one that this stuff is being ignored and I'm afraid I can't find any evidence that it is. Over the last few days, it's been all over the fact-based media, for example, the BBC where it's currently the third-most read story. I note the story does not appear on the front page of what used to be (is is still?) one of your own go-to trash-media outlets, Breitbart.

Your second unevidenced claim is that the story is somehow being suppressed in order to protect it in some fashion. Can you provide any evidence to back up this claim? Again, I note that trash-media outlet Breitbart which one might expect to highlight this story for racist or other propaganda means, remains silent. Are they suppressing it?

recedite · 23-12-2018 11:37am

robindch wrote: »

Who is sweeping this stuff under the carpet in order to "protect the ideology"?

You are making two claims here - one that this stuff is being ignored and I'm afraid I can't find any evidence that it is. Over the last few days, it's been all over the fact-based media, for example, the BBC where it's currently the third-most read story. I note the story does not appear on the front page of what used to be (is is still?) one of your own go-to trash-media outlets, Breitbart.

Your second unevidenced claim is that the story is somehow being suppressed in order to protect it in some fashion. Can you provide any evidence to back up this claim? Again, I note that trash-media outlet Breitbart which one might expect to highlight this story for racist or other propaganda means, remains silent. Are they suppressing it?

For the record, I made none of those claims.
Have a good Christmas all.

robindch · 23-12-2018 12:47pm

recedite wrote: »

For the record, I made none of those claims.
Have a good Christmas all.

Here they are:

recedite wrote: »

And consider also the part played by those in the educated west whose role is to sweep such barbarism under the carpet, in order to protect the reputation of the ideology.

recedite · 24-12-2018 12:41pm

That's a far cry from saying that I "made two unevidenced claims".

robindch wrote: »

You are making two claims here - one that this stuff is being ignored and I'm afraid I can't find any evidence that it is. Over the last few days, it's been all over the fact-based media, for example, the BBC where it's currently the third-most read story. I note the story does not appear on the front page of what used to be (is is still?) one of your own go-to trash-media outlets, Breitbart.

Your second unevidenced claim is that the story is somehow being suppressed in order to protect it in some fashion. Can you provide any evidence to back up this claim? Again, I note that trash-media outlet Breitbart which one might expect to highlight this story for racist or other propaganda means, remains silent. Are they suppressing it?

It is my opinion that a liberal bias in western media, schools and universities has helped to foster a situation in which these two young women felt they would be comparably safe camping in the Atlas mountains as they would be in the Scandinavian countryside. People have been brought up to believe uncritically in the merits of multiculturalism, and that all cultures are equally valid, and that people are the same wherever you go in the world.
That is not a comment on the specific reporting of these individual's deaths, indeed it would obviously be impossible for said reporting to have had an effect on the lives of the deceased.

Furthermore, this discussion started when we were discussing a different incident...

Obi_Wan_Kenobi wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6471059/Irish-lecturer-stabbed-death-Paris-insulted-Mohammed-says-Pakistani-killer.html

That poor man in Paris, killed because he insulted a fairytale prophet.

During that discussion I said that the particular modus operandi was typical of the Islamist killing of an infidel. Immediately two other posters on this forum jumped to deny this, and proceeded to criticise me for being "prejudiced".
Just to be clear, the ritualistic modus operandi I refer to is the cutting of the infidel's throat, often accompanied by some attempt to saw the head partially or fully off. Generally some Islamic incantation can be heard such as "Allahu Akbar" and/or a black flag containing verses from the Quaran is displayed at the time.

The Irish professor and these two Scandinavian women are only the most recent examples.
We also saw a priest killed in France.

We saw a car being used to initially disable the victim, and then the knife being used in a ritualistic way to finish off the victim, in England.

More recently similar murders inflicted on western cycle tourists in Tajikistan.

a detachment from the soldiers of the Caliphate" launched to strike "citizens of Crusader coalition countries," running them over and then using knives, killing four and wounding four others. It declared, "We give glad tidings to the citizens of the Crusader coalition countries with what will disturb them, and what is coming is more devastating and bitter, Allah permitting.

In fact there have been many more of these killings going back to the infamous Ken Bigley murder, and beyond.

If you want to dispute any of the above facts with me, please do.

Or if you want to quote anything I actually claimed there, please quote the exact quote where I made the claim and we can discuss.
But in future please refrain from making up your own "unevidenced claims", and then attributing them to me, and then embarking on a witchhunt aganst me on that basis.

If you want to discuss why "smiting the necks" of the unbeliever seems to be a thing in Islam, we can also discuss why that might be. Though somehow, I suspect you won't want to go down that road.

smacl · 24-12-2018 6:36pm

recedite wrote: »

During that discussion I said that the particular modus operandi was typical of the Islamist killing of an infidel. Immediately two other posters on this forum jumped to deny this, and proceeded to criticise me for being "prejudiced".
Just to be clear, the ritualistic modus operandi I refer to is the cutting of the infidel's throat, often accompanied by some attempt to saw the head partially or fully off. Generally some Islamic incantation can be heard such as "Allahu Akbar" and/or a black flag containing verses from the Quaran is displayed at the time.

Nope, you flippantly commented that the murder all seemed a bit halal, as per the post below. You later reverted to the more generic term of ritualistic killing when I picked you up on it, in that halal specifically refers to butchery of meat for food and has no relationship whatsoever to ritualistic killing.

recedite wrote: »

An Irish professor in France was stabbed in the chest and had his throat cut. It all seems a bit halal.

You seem hell bent on attacking Islam on the basis of the actions a relatively tiny number of Muslim terrorists. No one here is excusing the actions of any terrorist but it is prejudiced in the extreme to blame such a huge number of other people for the actions of those terrorists on the basis of shared nationality or religious belief. So for example, when you say

People have been brought up to believe uncritically in the merits of multiculturalism, and that all cultures are equally valid, and that people are the same wherever you go in the world.

in the context of the brutal murder of two young women by terrorists, the clear implication is that Islamic culture is somehow responsible, and by extension other Muslims. You used the same technique in relation to Pakistanis, generalizing the specific actions of a tiny number of deeply unpleasant criminals and attributing those actions to their cultural background and hence other entirely innocent Pakistanis. In by opinion, this is bigotry.

FWIW, I've walked and camped in the High Atlas mountains with my wife and found the local Berber people to be really friendly. I think the notion that an isolated incident like this in some way typifies the possible behavior of people local to this region is ill informed, misleading and unkind.

Personally, I'm highly critical of many aspects of Islam and Islamic regimes for many reasons, but find your rhetoric way off the mark. Anyhoo, Nollaig Shona!

Hotblack Desiato · 24-12-2018 10:26pm

recedite wrote: »

And consider also the part played by those in the educated west whose role is to sweep such barbarism under the carpet, in order to protect the reputation of the ideology. Thereby leaving victims such as these, vulnerable to its most terrible effects. Young Scandinavians have been brainwashed from an early age by their education system into having this vulnerability. The Irish are not far behind.

Sweeping under the carpet? Lol

All of the Abrahamic faiths are hideous ideologies. It just so happens that a tiny number of adherents of the newest one of the three are a bit too enthusiastic and literal than we'd like, but the christian bible has plenty of nasty exhortations to go out and kill people too. They're the bits that the "god is love" preachers gloss over. If god (a) exists and (b) loves humanity then he wouldn't have wiped out humanity, "sinner" and non-"sinner", with a flood. If god exists they're a cûnt.

There's a teacher in my kids' school who teaches the Flood as if it were a factual event... :mad:

Mentally unstable people are drawn to religion like moths to a flame unfortunately, and plenty have killed because they thought the christian god was talking to them (e.g. Peter Sutcliffe.) It just so happens at the present time that the go-to exit route for insane suicidal European young males of muslim descent is "allah ahkbar" *bang*.

Odhinn · 03-01-2019 5:39pm

More of a 'former hazard of belief' - AKA Shiny happy people holding hands

"Archaeologists in Mexico say they have made an important discovery, uncovering a temple to Xipe Totec - the pre-Hispanic "Flayed lord".
Historically, throughout the region, priests paid tribute to the deity by wearing the skin of human sacrifices.
Items relating to the deity were discovered at a site in Puebla state, and believed to date from 900-1150 AD."

The festival of Tlacaxipehualiztli, which means to wear the skin of the skinning, was dedicated to him during spring during the Aztec period.

It involved selected captives being sacrificed, sometimes by staged gladiatorial fights, before they were skinned and hearts cut out in homage of the God."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46746842

Hotblack Desiato · 03-01-2019 6:15pm

The ever-recurring question in relation to religion rears its head again:

"How the f*** did anyone listening to the person who came up with that think it was a good idea"

Pawwed Rig · 03-01-2019 8:31pm

Odhinn wrote: »

It involved selected captives being sacrificed, sometimes by staged gladiatorial fights, before they were skinned and hearts cut out in homage of the God."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46746842

Now that is a proper religion. none of this turn the other cheek and god loves you crap.
In fact a real hazard of belief is that one of the main reasons the Aztecs were conquered so easily by the Spanish was that their 'wars' revolved around taking captives for sacrifice rather than just killing the opposing army. So while the Spanish were mowing them down during the battle of Tenochtitlan the Aztecs were dragging the struggling Spaniards up the steps of their temples for sacrifice.

If you ever needed motivation not to surrender, seeing your buddies still beating heard being ripped from his chest is probably a good way.

mikhail · 08-01-2019 2:56pm

“We were thinking about this with our crew and with our kids. We prayed for guidance and God told us we shouldn’t you pay this money. Instead, we’re going to pay for you in prayer and blessings.”

https://notalwaysright.com/put-your-money-where-your-thoughts-and-prayers-are/132496/

robindch · 09-01-2019 1:05pm

mikhail wrote: »

https://notalwaysright.com/put-your-money-where-your-thoughts-and-prayers-are/132496/

Reminds me of Popette who - according to one of her kids anyway - approached her eldest son in mid-2017 and explained that the hereafter had communicated that the world as we knew it was going to end a few weeks later by means of asteroid and consequent tsunami and would the son ever immediately buy the seaside family home from Popette's long-suffering husband, so she could buy a rather grand place well inland and on higher ground.

The son politely declined the generous offer to buy a house which the owner believed was going to be destroyed within weeks, so Popette then asked the son to provide her with a loan for upwards of half a million euro so that she could buy the inland house directly.

"But I won't be able to pay any interest as it's unbiblical."

The son, I believe, said that he'd think about it.

robindch · 09-01-2019 1:11pm

Patriarch Kirill, head of the Russian Orthodox Church and, famously, a fan of Breguet wristwatches, recently explained on Russian state-controlled telly, that smartphone users should be careful not to fall under the influence of Satan.

With no evident irony and in denial/ignorance of current Russian state policy, Kirill explained:

Patriarch Kirill to Росси&#1103 wrote: »

Every time you use your gadget, whether you like it or not, whether you turn on your location or not, somebody can find out exactly where you are, exactly what your interests are and exactly what you are scared of [...] Such control from one place forebodes the coming of the Antichrist.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-46794556

seamus · 09-01-2019 1:21pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The ever-recurring question in relation to religion rears its head again:

"How the f*** did anyone listening to the person who came up with that think it was a good idea"

I think these insane rituals virtually always come about because of some historical event or legend, which then become "re-enactments" of the original tale.

So way back when, some complete psychopath became an heroic legend to the Aztecs has a story told of the time he vanquished an enemy, flayed him and wore his skin, and then founded a mighty empire and received many grateful virgins who bore him many triumphant sons.

"Hey, let's try that again and see if it works"

The Hazards of Belief

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