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The Hazards of Belief

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    I was just listening to a podcast by This American Life. There is a report by Kathy Stuart on a woman who decided to kill a child, rather than commit suicide (which was her original intention) to gain entry into 'heaven'. Suicide by proxy.

    The church taught that, suicide is a bigger sin than murder. If you've commited murder, you can repent your sins to a priest, then everything's okay. You're going to 'heaven'.

    But, if you commit suicide, there's no chance to repent (obviously) and your sole buys a one-way ticket to hell. Ouch.

    So some people decided that if they killed a child, they would receive the death penalty, thus avoiding suicide, and avail of the chance to repent and enter into 'paradise'. Religious logic. The worst kind of logic.

    Christina Johansdotter was one such person.
    Children were not just ideal victims because they easy preys due to their disadvantage in size and strength, but they were also believed to be free of sin and, thus, did not have to receive absolution before death in order to go to Paradise.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Did this one show up before? Hope not :)

    219476.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Religious logic. The worst kind of logic.
    I think what makes it worse is the idea that their God can be tricked by way of technicality. Even though he's supposed to know everything and see into your soul, you can trick him into letting you into heaven by exploiting a philosophical loophole.

    Bizarre.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,338 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    robindch wrote: »
    Here in Ireland, some christians are upset at the ECHR's ruling on abortion. While in the UK, some christians are taking a case to the ECHR alleging systemic discrimination:

    Mr McFarlane, a Bristol counsellor, was sacked by Relate after saying on a training course he might have had a conscientious objection to giving sex therapy advice to gay couples

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19472438

    I'm not sure what to make of this, really. If the counsellor advertised his services as having a Christian bent then fair enough that's what people can go in expecting. But if he is putting forward his personal objections as a reason for not providing therapy (that doesn't have a Christian focus) then I don't know if he should have much support. My limited of understanding is that counsellors have to be there for their clients for the 50 minutes or whatever, regardless. They all have prejudices about something or other and work with uncomfortable topics all the time, but he should have worked through those in training, kept them in check or talk about them with his supervisor. Be they personal or professional. But hey, let's just play the persecuted Christian card, eh?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,338 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Just thinking about that sort of situation again, there was a case I heard a year or two ago about a 24 year old trainee counsellor in the US. I think it was that she was a counsellor who happened to be Christian, as opposed to being a Christian counsellor. Anyway, she spoke about teh gheys and I think she lost her place on the course. Can't find a link just now. Naturally enough she was defended by some family values org.

    It's all a bit stupid, no? I mean, people from all walks of life must tell some of these counsellors their 'sins', but are they pushed towards 'repair' therapy? Are they bollocks.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hard to say what this is about exactly, but it seems that Catholic Relief Services, a large relief services charity with 5,000 employees, is revising the advice they give on condom use amongst HIV positive clients. It's probably safe to assume the worst:

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic-relief-services-responds-to-criticism-over-hiv-document-employees/
    Baltimore, Md., Sep 6, 2012 / 10:01 am (CNA).- Catholic Relief Services has announced revisions to an HIV prevention document because of its “inappropriate information” about condoms and their use.

    “Despite the mistakes, at no point did CRS purchase or distribute condoms. We are revising the document to ensure that it meets our standards as approved by the USCCB,” Michael Hill, a senior writer with the relief agency, told CNA Sept. 5.

    Hill said the 179-page document was written in 2009 by outside consultants for a Vietnam program that aimed to halt the spread of HIV among intravenous drug users.

    “CRS staff prescribed revisions to the document that were not carried out by the external consultant in the final, posted document,” he said. This meant that five sentences in the document referred to condom use among couples where one person is HIV positive and the other is HIV negative.

    The agency announced the revisions in Aug. 31 in response to a report from LifeSite News.

    The relief agency, which is overseen by the U.S. bishops, has 5,000 employees working to help more than 100 million people across the world address poverty, hunger, drought, disease and other emergencies.

    LifeSite News has also reported on several of the agency’s employees who have records of past employment with agencies that support legal abortion or distribute abortion drugs and condoms.

    One reported case also involves an employee’s assault on pro-life demonstrators.

    Charisse Glassman, a legislative assistant with Catholic Relief Services-Haiti, was charged with assault last year after she drove her car into a female pro-life demonstrator in a crowd at the March for Life in January 2011. Court records say Glassman allegedly laughed several times during the incident.

    In response to the questions raised about employees, Michael Hill stated that Catholic Relief Services employees “all are expected to follow Church teachings and doctrines” in their work for the agency.

    The agency also aims to hire “the best qualified people for jobs.”

    “In many cases, that requires that an employee be Catholic, but in many it does not,” he said.

    Potential employees are informed about the agency’s Catholic identity and are asked about their commitment to the agency’s “faith-based mission.” All job postings also note “fundamental” Catholic teachings.

    “If someone has previously worked at an employer with policies that are not in agreement with Catholic teachings, we do not assume that the applicant shares those views,” Hill said. “We do ask about their commitment to Catholic teachings to ensure they are a good fit for CRS.”

    Hill said the agency does not investigate employees’ outside activities but it expects employees to “conduct themselves with integrity to CRS’ values and its fidelity to Church teachings.”

    In July, Catholic Relief Services responded to concerns about its funding of CARE, an international humanitarian organization that provides relief to the needy in developing nations but also offers contraception and early abortion-inducing drugs. Catholic Relief Services said the funding was carefully restricted to morally acceptable purposes and was reviewed by a Catholic bioethicist.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,802 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm not sure what to make of this, really
    i don't see what the fuss is, myself. do we really expect a straight man to give sex therapy advice to a gay couple? we give out enough about priests' opinions on marriage...


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,361 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    i don't see what the fuss is, myself. do we really expect a straight man to give sex therapy advice to a gay couple? we give out enough about priests' opinions on marriage...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19472438

    There's a two minute interview with him linked on the page. Interviewer asks if there is anything a heterosexual couple would do that would conflict with his beliefs but that he'd have to give advice on, he says no (despite how sexual activities like anal sex cannot result in children and would therefore conflict with his beliefs). He then says that the conflict comes from any type of sex which is outside of the marriage relationship. He then contradicts that by saying that there would be no problem with giving sex therapy to straight couples who aren't married (He even says that he sees the point the interviewer was trying to make with that question, yet he doesn't try to justify his answer, just repeating about not wanting to judge people or go against his beliefs).

    Basically, it's not about the actual physical sex. His issue seems to stem solely from the fact that they're gay and it conflicts with his beliefs.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Penn wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19472438

    There's a two minute interview with him linked on the page. Interviewer asks if there is anything a heterosexual couple would do that would conflict with his beliefs but that he'd have to give advice on, he says no (despite how sexual activities like anal sex cannot result in children and would therefore conflict with his beliefs). He then says that the conflict comes from any type of sex which is outside of the marriage relationship. He then contradicts that by saying that there would be no problem with giving sex therapy to straight couples who aren't married (He even says that he sees the point the interviewer was trying to make with that question, yet he doesn't try to justify his answer, just repeating about not wanting to judge people or go against his beliefs).

    Basically, it's not about the actual physical sex. His issue seems to stem solely from the fact that they're gay and it conflicts with his beliefs.

    Have I got this straight (ba dum tish) he doesn't want to judge people or go against his beliefs but is willing to council unmarried heterosexual unmarried couples but not Gay couples as having the ghey sex is against his beliefs but he doesn't intend to be judgmental?

    WOW. That is some mental gymnastics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,361 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Have I got this straight (ba dum tish) he doesn't want to judge people or go against his beliefs but is willing to council unmarried heterosexual unmarried couples but not Gay couples as having the ghey sex is against his beliefs but he doesn't intend to be judgmental?

    WOW. That is some mental gymnastics.

    Married couples who have freaky sex? That's fine (even though that conflicts with his beliefs)
    Unmarried couples having normal sex? That's fine (even though that conflicts with his beliefs)
    Gay couples? No. Why? Because that conflicts with his beliefs!


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    David Cameron is not only under fire for appointing Jeremy Hunt, a well-known supporter of homeopathy, as the UK's Minister of Health, but he's also made a rather odd choice for Minister for Culture which includes women and equality:

    219874.jpg


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    David Cameron is not only under fire for appointing Jeremy Hunt, a well-known supporter of homeopathy, as the UK's Minister of Health, but he's also made a rather odd choice for Minister for Culture which includes women and equality:

    219874.jpg

    Have you seen the rest of his appointees?:

    Minister for Transport:

    amish-horse-buggy_~k1832518.jpg

    Minister for Science and Technology:

    luddites.jpg

    Minister for Education:

    speerhit.jpg
    (The chap on the right obviously. That's 'our' right, it would be hard to be to the right of the chap to whose left he is standing)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ....if it wasn't fer the size of me belly, it'd be like the 80's again....


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This is what happens when you have a 2-party system

    Party A wins power, does OK for a few years, gradually adopts increasingly nutty policies, is revealed to have received illegal donations/cash for peerages/whatever you're having yourself.

    Electorate can no longer stand the stink of Party A and elects Party B as the fresh new hope for clean politics.

    Party B does OK for a few years...



    Things are slightly better here in that we have PR, and coalitions are normal, but only slightly.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robindch wrote: »
    David Cameron is not only under fire for appointing Jeremy Hunt, a well-known supporter of homeopathy

    Does that make you a homeophobe ? :pac:

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9298578/Prisoners-under-pressure-to-convert-to-Muslim-gang.html

    Prison guards said they had a policy of “appeasement” towards the powerful and growing Islamic population, particularly convicted terrorists who were feared to be recruiting future extremists.

    Non-believers avoided confrontation with any Muslim in case it led to retribution from the wider group, and said they even avoided cooking pork or bacon in communal kitchens or undressing in the showers in case it caused offence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    MRC vid of a Muslim refusing allowing his wife to show her face at a Japanese airport.
    http://www.mrctv.org/embed/116514


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    seamus wrote: »
    I think what makes it worse is the idea that their God can be tricked by way of technicality. Even though he's supposed to know everything and see into your soul, you can trick him into letting you into heaven by exploiting a philosophical loophole.

    Bizarre.
    I feel the same way about Pascal's Wager. They believe in and all powerful, all knowing gid who is also a fcuking retard.
    biko wrote: »
    MRC vid of a Muslim refusing allowing his wife to show her face at a Japanese airport.
    http://www.mrctv.org/embed/116514
    Asshole.

    MrP


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Joao de Deus (John of God).

    I was shown a video of this 'faith healer' yesterday and told "look, he can heal people".

    He makes incisions in his patients and removes tumours without anaesthetic, apparently. The power he has over these poor folks is scary.
    Robert and Caterina Pellegrino-Estrich claim they were the first non-Brazilians to reveal to the world John of god's amazing healing gifts. They are practicing "Bio-Energy Spiritual Healers" and Reiki Masters, Prana Therapists, and Spiritual Healing Practitioners. Caterina calls herself "The Lady of Light." They provide "ground support" for visitors to Abadiania, where John plies his trade. They advise, however, that before you travel to Brazil you purchase travel insurance. "Travel insurance is essential to cover you in the event of accident, illness, loss of personal belongings or death." Nice touch.
    I know John doesn't charge a fee for his "services," but he prescribes herbs to everybody he sees (about 1,500-2,000 people a week) and his clinic sells the herbs. According to Quinones, "the clinic does pull in something like $400,000 a year from the sale of herbs." I know from watching the video of John at work that he places his hands on the breasts of his female patients regardless of what ails them.
    Another 30 seconds was spent noting that John of god has been accused of molesting one of his young patients and has been arrested several times for practicing medicine without a license. John is a farmer by training and has a large ranch outside of the town where he has his clinic.

    Reiki Masters? Ahahaha.

    An old, creepy, breast-fondling farmer? More of a healing grope than touch. The lord does indeed work in mysterious ways.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Will check it out after work. Anything like Randi's Philippines explanation?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭shanered


    biko wrote: »
    MRC vid of a Muslim refusing allowing his wife to show her face at a Japanese airport.
    http://www.mrctv.org/embed/116514

    He didn't seem like to most reasonably guy in the world!
    "You will die from my Muslim punch", pretty funny when he says that!
    But it is crazy that he just expects his wife to escape and identification or searching in an airport.
    I just don't understand why Muslims expect to be exempt from other cultures laws while if people from other cultures are in a Muslim country they must follow their laws.
    It just stinks of hypocrisy!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    How to Determine If Your Religious Liberty Is Being Threatened in Just 10 Quick Questions

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily-c-heath/how-to-determine-if-your-religious-liberty-is-being-threatened-in-10-questions_b_1845413.html
    It seems like this election season "religious liberty" is a hot topic. Rumors of its demise are all around, as are politicians who want to make sure that you know they will never do anything to intrude upon it.

    I'm a religious person with a lifelong passion for civil rights, so this is of great interest to me. So much so, that I believe we all need to determine whether our religious liberties are indeed at risk. So, as a public service, I've come up with this little quiz. I call it "How to Determine if Your Religious Liberty Is Being Threatened in Just 10 Quick Questions." Just pick "A" or "B" for each question.

    1. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) I am not allowed to go to a religious service of my own choosing.
    B) Others are allowed to go to religious services of their own choosing.

    2. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) I am not allowed to marry the person I love legally, even though my religious community blesses my marriage.
    B) Some states refuse to enforce my own particular religious beliefs on marriage on those two guys in line down at the courthouse.

    3. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) I am being forced to use birth control.
    B) I am unable to force others to not use birth control.

    4. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) I am not allowed to pray privately.
    B) I am not allowed to force others to pray the prayers of my faith publicly.

    5. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) Being a member of my faith means that I can be bullied without legal recourse.
    B) I am no longer allowed to use my faith to bully gay kids with impunity.

    6. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) I am not allowed to purchase, read or possess religious books or material.
    B) Others are allowed to have access books, movies and websites that I do not like.

    7. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) My religious group is not allowed equal protection under the establishment clause.
    B) My religious group is not allowed to use public funds, buildings and resources as we would like, for whatever purposes we might like.

    8. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) Another religious group has been declared the official faith of my country.
    B) My own religious group is not given status as the official faith of my country.

    9. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) My religious community is not allowed to build a house of worship in my community.
    B) A religious community I do not like wants to build a house of worship in my community.

    10. My religious liberty is at risk because:
    A) I am not allowed to teach my children the creation stories of our faith at home.
    B) Public school science classes are teaching science.

    Scoring key:

    If you answered "A" to any question, then perhaps your religious liberty is indeed at stake. You and your faith group have every right to now advocate for equal protection under the law. But just remember this one little, constitutional, concept: this means you can fight for your equality -- not your superiority.

    If you answered "B" to any question, then not only is your religious liberty not at stake, but there is a strong chance that you are oppressing the religious liberties of others. This is the point where I would invite you to refer back to the tenets of your faith, especially the ones about your neighbors.

    In closing, no matter what soundbites you hear this election year, remember this: Religious liberty is never secured by a campaign of religious superiority. The only way to ensure your own religious liberty remains strong is by advocating for the religious liberty of all, including those with whom you may passionately disagree. Because they deserve the same rights as you. Nothing more. Nothing less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    A US state department official was killed and at least one other American was wounded when militiamen stormed the US consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.
    It is believed the protest was held over a US-produced film that is said to be insulting to the Prophet Muhammad.
    The building was set on fire after armed men raided the compound with grenades.
    Protests have also been held at the US embassy in the Egyptian capital, Cairo.
    In the attack in Benghazi, unidentified armed men stormed the grounds, shooting at buildings and throwing handmade bombs into the compound.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19562692

    This is the movie in question
    http://youtu.be/qmodVun16Q4

    For those not in a clicky mood, it's a dire piece of shite, not some documentary. An example of real world trolling, by the looks of things.

    - The "muhammed" section starts at 2.15 in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    What's wrong with this picture?

    em2Fd.jpg


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Israeli religious fundamentalists are horrified that they're now being called upon to defend the state they demand and justify, having traditionally relied upon their non-religious brothers and sisters to do it for them.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19492627

    "It's very stressful", said one religious student with no obvious trace of irony.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It seems a benefit of belief is about to come to an end!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    robindch wrote: »
    Israeli religious fundamentalists are horrified that they're now being called upon to defend the state they demand and justify, having traditionally relied upon their non-religious brothers and sisters to do it for them.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19492627

    "It's very stressful", said one religious student with no obvious trace of irony.

    "Me and my friends are going to the army and we're risking our lives. We could die. You see ultra-Orthodox people saying they're not joining the army because they are protecting Israel through prayer. It's very frustrating."

    "I don't see those ultra-Orthodox as Israeli as me, because they are doing nothing for the state," she says.

    Ha. Keep thinking like that and you'll be one of us soon lady (if you're not killed protecting such ridiculous ideas)


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I really wonder what mainstream Israeli belief is like. I remember someone making I point that rang through that they have a whole legal system that when it comes to politics and Arabs exists purely for justice to be seen to be done. Many in the UK up til the late 80s at least were completely ignorant of what was happening in NI, would be interesting to find out if that holds true in Israel because TV programme makers only seem to like to find the nuts and the Godwinners.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    I really wonder what mainstream Israeli belief is like. I remember someone making I point that rang through that they have a whole legal system that when it comes to politics and Arabs exists purely for justice to be seen to be done. Many in the UK up til the late 80s at least were completely ignorant of what was happening in NI, would be interesting to find out if that holds true in Israel because TV programme makers only seem to like to find the nuts and the Godwinners.

    Given that it appears to be quite a strong nation in scientifiic terms I'd assume that most Israeli's are fairly secularist.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Gbear wrote: »
    Given that it appears to be quite a strong nation in scientifiic terms I'd assume that most Israeli's are fairly secularist.

    The Haredim are doing their best to outnumber them, with their large families. These Ultra Orthodox Jews are ridiculous. We've already read about their special blurred glasses which make it difficult for them to see a woman, when they're out and about. (Not from The Onion)

    From the link provided by Robin:
    But he sees obstacles to integrating all ultra-Orthodox recruits in the army if the exemptions end - not least because of strict religious rules about the separation of men and women.

    For example, ultra-Orthodox men would not be able to listen across the communications system if a woman radio operator was speaking.

    What. Dafuq?

    They're almost as bad as the muslims.

    Women have to sit at the back of the bus in Jerusalem. Jews persecuting Jews.


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