Home heating automation

It looks very much like a surface contact cylinder stat but with a front cover, clipped on or held in place by the white spring cord. It might look like this if you slip it out from under the cord and lift the cover.

You can have a look if you wish, I'm fairly certain that is not a wireless temperature sender to the EPH controller, so you would be well set to replace the EPH controller and wireless stats with the Drayton Wiser Kit 3. You could still use Tado wireless, but you'd need a wire pair for one of the Tado stats back to the controller for one of the CH zones. If the controller was in the HP on a landing, then it's easy to site the upstairs wired stat outside the press, but if the controller is in a utility room downstairs, it would be more difficult to reach either stat by wire (unless this was already done in an older installation pre EPH ).

If you decide to fit smart TRVs on the radiators, the Tado (or Drayton) TRV heads are directly compatible with the M30x1.5 thread on the radiator valves, same as used by the Myson, so a minutes work to screw off the Myson and screw on the smart head Should you do this to most of your rads, then a single wireless stat can be used to treat your house as one zone, say in the downstairs hall, with individual smart TRV's turning on room zones, say living, kitchen, beds. This makes the Tado wireless kit an option without a second wired stat, and will give you finer control over heating, making some savings. Rooms with just the passive mechanical TRVs will heat whenever any of the smart TRVs or the main wireless stat has a timed event.

Have a good think, ask any more questions as you need. There's no subscription for Tado. There is an auto assist option that can be added for a couple of euro per month, but afaik all the smarts are already included, and it fully integrates with alexa, Google, etc.

Thanks so much @deezell , you’re making this very easy for us!

If you install sufficient smart TRV's, you won't need two zone valves, as the TRV's are effectively individual motorised valves. It may be useful though to place a motorised valve where the HW only summer valve is, as this valve will close off all CH, except the bath radiator on the HW branch. A second zone valve on the cylinder coil inlet will give independent CH and HW, and provide the zone valve relays for S-plan wiring, which allows either switching live, HW or CH, from your timed controller, to be combined into one live to fire the boiler.

That timed controller can be one of many smart brands that support CH and HW relays, and also integrated smart TRV's, whereby any smart will instruct the main CH thermostat relay to fire the boiler, or open the CH zone valve, whose relay fires the boiler.

Right now there is great value in smart starter kits, wireless wall thermostat, receiver with CH and HW relay, and Internet bridge/hub. The Tado wireless kit is in Screwfix, a bargain at €110, (black stat kit €105)

A pack of 4 TRVs is €230 for the premium model, €200 for the economy model. You should invest in the starter kit and two backs of TRVs, you'll have all you need for almost complete zoning. You don't need trvs on every rad, mostly the ones you are most likely to exclude when heating. Halll and corridor rads generally will be on for all heating calls.

There are other smart brands which do exactly the same, namely Drayton wiser and Hive, the Hive mini starter kit is also well priced in Screwfix.

Your plumbing outlay can be as little as two zone valves in the CH and HW circuits, a simple job as the branches are easily accessed. Your radiators probably don't have mechanical TRV valve heads, so the radiator valves will need to be changed to the push pin TRV type if they're the ordinary screw down type. These valves are little over a fiver trade, and a plumber could change them all in a day.

The disconnected stove boiler is a different prospect. Boiler stoves are not cheap, and purchased stove fuel, timber or nuggets, is now as expensive per kwh of heat as oil, with all the extra taxes applied. If you have a source of timber, a boiler stove is a great asset. Integration into a valved CH system require careful blending of the heat sources in a manifold, with a gravity connection for the stove to a HW coil at least. You could spend several thousand to get this right. It might be better to install a non boiler wood stove, which will give out tremendous heat for modest fuel consumption,while not interfering with the main thermostat controlled CH system.

Excellent. I see they're sold in Germany under the Merten brand, about €44. Individual additional wiser wall stats are only €43.60 on Amazon.de .

I'm assuming these can be used as sensor stats for more accurate TRV reading, they're about €114 in Screwfix.

Tado smart stats and TRVs are fantastic value at the moment in Screwfix. The wireless starter kit controller/receiver is a wire in replacement for your Danfoss, with the wireless thermostat giving you the flexibility to place it anywhere, hall or livingroom, without the worry of running cables. CHand HW timing move to the app, with infinite flexibility for CH timing/temperature schedules.

Hive and Drayton present a similar setup scenario, Drayton TRVs are real value on Amazon at the moment, the Wiser kit 2 for CH and HW not so well priced. I would consider the Tado premium TRVs superior to the Drayton or Hive TRVs, the Tado economy TRVs are closer by comparison. There are advantages in buying local over the counter also, in terms of ease of warranty handling.

All smart TRVs heads will need existing TRV valve bodies on the radiators, if your rads don't already have mechanical TRVs fitted, but only have the ordinary twist tap style valves, these will need replacing with TRVs push pin valve bodies to take the TRV smart heads.

With the S plan and 2 zone valves you won't have a situation that requires an open radiator, that's really only an issue if you had a boiler stove which has unregulated supply of heat.

If you place the HW zone valve directly on the flow of the cylinder coil, then even when HW zone valve is closed, the bathroom radiator is connected to flow, so any boiler call for CH will heat this rad. You can put a smart TRV on it also, it will call the boiler via opening of the CH zone valve. though it is located in 'front' of the CH valve, this won't matter. If there is no CH activity, all radiators behind the CH valve won't heat, even those which don't have smart TRV's, so you don't need full implementation of smart TRVs to ensure no heating radiators during a HW only call, say in the summer. By having a smart TRV on the bathroom rad, this will ensure it also doesn't heat during a HW only call.

I agree on the stove issue, and fitting a TRV valve body to every radiator is worth the effort even if you only fit smart TRVs on a selection of them. If you locate the wall stat in the hall, you generally wouldn't put a smart TRV on the hall rad(s) as the stat will need to heat them to close the loop. If you do place TRVs on the rads in the wall stat location, you assign this stat as the temperature measuring device for these rads, not their own smart TRV's sensor.Thus these TRVs act only as motorised valve. You will be able to cap temperature with mechanical TRV heads on the other rads, i.e., they'll heat for any smart TRV boiler call. but limited to the setting of their mechanical TRV head.

You'll have to make that call on brand, cost and versatility yourself. You can see my opinions on TRV quality and point of purchase in my previous answer to @dropzone. The availability of additional devices such as smart plugs, and boosters may be an issue. I have no issues with Tado TRVs either end of a 2200 sq ft bungalow with all block internal walls, Tado support are particularly good at remote analysis and tweaking of connected devices. The Tado bridge is ethernet cable connected, and can be situated away from the router to optimise the coverage.

Last question first, PV heating of HW is done via the immersion, so once it heats the cylinder to target temperature, the cylinder stat which would be fitted in a zoned system with a HW zone, would open and prevent any call for heat during a HW timed event, from whatever system you have, wiser, Tado etc.

If this is a newly plumbed house, the cost of fitting trv valve bodies instead of twist valves is trivial, but if you already have the twist valves on, a plumber would swap out a houseful in a day. Trv valve bodies only maybe €5-6 trade, labour the biggest cost.

With zone valves, it depends on if the single zone plumbing is already in. It may not be easy to get a clean split on the pipe circuits into say, bedrooms and reception rooms. If you go full smart TRV, it doesn't matter. There's no penalty in closing the flow at the rads, but not at the flow inlet.

You don't mention HW, if you have a cylinder or direct HW, and if a cylinder, is it's coil on a seperate circuit before the CH branches, or is it on the same circuit tapped somewhere in the middle, as can happen in very old or homebrew installs.

Okay great, thanks deezell. I think I was on the same line of thought as you re PV so that's reassuring.

No, house is 100+ years old but with contemporary extension and upgrades etc

If I recall it's straight forward oil burner with one back boiler stove (gravity fed I guess, I'm not a plumber!) with I think 15 rads overall.

I'll def get the trv vales fitted, take the hit on the labour. I'm handy enough but when it comes to plumbing I tend to opt out.

The intent is to go full smart trvs so I'll not bother with zoning based on your recommendation.

Re the cylinder, I expect it's a two coil copper job so I'll prob get that replaced anyway for a more modern one.

Had a Joule 300ltr x3 coil in the old place (had oil, stove and solar tubes for water as heat sources)

Forgive any mistakes above, I'm a layman!)

Yet to move in so I'm just doing some groundwork.

As always, thanks Deezell, you make the forum tbh

Phew. This thread getting busy all of a sudden.

WINTER IS COMING

If It looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck.... it's a, Wiser. Its made by Schneider. While wiser uses Zigbee, "All the Wiser TRVs and the Room Stat uses a manufacturer specific Zigbee cluster with proprietary communication" according to this discussion. https://community.home-assistant.io/t/drayton-wiser-home-assistant-integration/80965/980?page=49

At that amazon.de price its worth a punt I suppose, I'm not even familiar with how it's set up as a sensor and paired to a particular receiver for firing of the boiler, but I presume thats all taken care of in the wiser app. I see they sell it on the site in a bundle with a TRV and a receiver relay, but a different small black one that's also described as an electric window blind actuator. I can see the appeal of using wiser parts in the Home Assistant integration setups that the guys in that blog enthuse about, but I'm loath to go down the rabbit hole much as it tempts me. I'll stick with changing The TV channel/volume with Google Home on my phone because the remote is over on her chair and I'd have to move to get it.

If you have two plumbed CH zones, seperated by motorised valves, then ir would be a shame not to have two thermostats to control them. The wireless kits are great value at the moment. If you have an existing wired thermostat back to the boiler, that can be used for a wired smart stat such as Tado. This can be used to switch both zones, nit you can get an additional wireless stat, receiver and Internet bridge for little over €100, so that kit, plus and extra add on wired stat will give you a 2 CH and HW smart system. You said though you're getting a combi boiler, which delivers HW direct to the taps on demand, so you won't have a HW cylinder or need a HW zone. You should clarify that with your plumber doing the upgrade

Thanks again deezell.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes it's exactly as you say. If the HW is on then the CH is off but I can have both CH zones on at same time when HW not on.

There is a wall wired thermostat for each zone (2 in total).

So my thinking was to replace the eph unit so that I could control timing of HW and CH from the phone and also to replace the 2 walled thermostats with tado wirless thermostats. Then get tado valves for a good few of the rads.

Will that work? Acccording to their app Tado say my system not compatible with their receiver.

Bit of a review as I stumbled across this thread. I went with Drayton Wiser a few years ago. All the rads with smart thermostat(apart from bathrooms).

Do they work? yes has to be the answer. App is really easy to set up but I did try having multiple setup's for different rooms and it got a bit messy but probably because I didn't spend enough time setting it up

I did find I had to buy a couple of plugs to get a decent signal around the house but I live in a bungalow. After that it really has been setup and forget. You do need. decent supply of batteries. They don't recommend reuseable ones and when I tried they would run down very quickly. The standard ones probably get changed twice a year in the TRV's. Once for the ones not really used to turn up/down heating

Post a pic of the wall stat and eph. If you can, remove stat cover get a pic of the wiring. Pop the EPF off and get a pic of its backplate wiring also.