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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

12467…203

Comments

  • #152
    tsiehta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 81 ✭✭tsiehta


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    That's a little disingenuous. Daniel Tosh does not do it on his show a lot. Also he caused an uproar when he did. It started a debate amongst comedians about whether he crossed the line and the consensus was he clearly spoke in jest. Tosh.O is kind of a sh!tty show, he makes purposely controversial remarks about videos online. It's crappy tv.
    It is a ****ty show, but so is TC's example, The Talk, which also provoked enough of a reaction to get an apology on air (albeit a ****ty one).


  • #153
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »

    3 tests, one numerical, one comprehension and the final one is decision making. So 300 marks available. The top 10% get interviews.
    It was thought men were better at the numerical test so the total result is actually out of 200 marks (comprehension/decision making) and the numerical test is just a pass/fail. This was to give women a better chance of success.
    source please?


  • #154
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    While I agree that there are a lot of areas where men are discriminated against, I would have to say that what you've put forward here does not constitute this - at the very least, you've not shown sufficient evidence to demonstrate it.
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    For the entry exam for the civil service there are three tests (apptitude type). The best results get you an interview. One of them is a numerical test. The opinion (rightly or wrongly) is that men are better at Maths. For that reason the numerical test is excluded from the overall result.
    Presuming that men are indeed better at maths, which is arguable, there's no evidence that these scores are omitted specifically to give female candidates an edge in the entry requirements.

    Correlation does not imply causation, and there remain numerous other reasons why the scoring system has been designed in this way - unless you can demonstrate this intent, then you can't assume that it is based on sexism.
    Secondly and this is anecdotal from family members who work in CS. If there is say 10 jobs advertised at a particular grade it can be the case where they will only hire women where there is seen to be a lack of women in the relevant grade. So if there are 50 applicants with 10 of them women then they may put all women through for balance.
    Presuming such quotas exist, you've only given, at best, an example of where there is a shortage of women. To demonstrate that such a policy is sexist, you'd also have to show that they are not applied in favour of men where there is a shortage of men. Without that, you can speculate that the policy is sexist, but you've not actually demonstrated it.

    As I said, men and women are discriminated against, but just because something appears to be, on a superficial level, so doesn't mean it is. It is sometimes easy to see discrimination around every corner. Certainly plenty of it is, but both men and women can also get carried away, finding it in places where it actually doesn't exist.


  • #155
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    tsiehta wrote: »
    Well, originally the point raised was about private conversation, not public jokes. I've heard enough "I'd rape her", "She deserves to be raped" etc. in certain social circles to know that that's not true.
    What's not true?
    You also have Meg on Family Guy, who's entire point on the show is to be constantly verbally and physically abused.
    But is that because she's female or because she's the 'runt' of the family? If you look at, especially slap-stick, comedy you'll find examples of these sort of characters (Neil from the Young Ones is one that pops into my head), and they can be of either gender as this is immaterial to their role. Indeed, there is actually no suggestion that Meg is picked on in Family guy because of her gender; never has been.

    Secondly, Family Guy as a show has gone out of it's way to break taboos, so if it depicts violence against women in humour, then this is actually part of what the show is about. Remember, it has been accused of anti-Semitism too in the past, as well as of poor taste where it comes to the disabled, conservatives, liberals, blacks, Asians and pretty much everyone else.

    If it is specifically seeking to portray violence against women in the shape of Meg, it's just being consistent with all these other challenges to accepted norms. Indeed, the entire Meg character is far more complex than just being a gender as she's often portrayed as being a little too male biologically and part of the irony being that she is voiced by Mila Kunis who is as different to Meg as one can get.
    Also, while not jokes, you have the Steubenville case, with a disturbing amount media coverage sympathizing with the rapists, and hardly mentioning the victim, along with plenty of awful, public tweets, facebook messages etc. .
    Welcome to the World of reporting of crimes against men, as this is the sort of coverage that will typically take place when the man is a victim. I've already cited the difference in language that is commonplace where a male minor is abused sexually by a female adult, for example, and there is no shortage of similar reporting in especially domestic cases (e.g. Lorena Bobbitt) that seek to sympathize with the perpetrator. When was the last time you heard any report that sought to sympathize with the father who killed his daughter in an honour killing, because he was 'driven to it'?

    Now, this is not to suggest that the reporting of the Steubenville case is justified, but the reason that this has been highlighted is that such coverage is actually rare. Where a man is the victim, it's commonplace.
    The idea that violence against women is universally condemned in public and never joked about compared to violence against men is just false.
    It's not though - even the example you gave was subsequently universally condemned.
    tsiehta wrote: »
    It is a ****ty show, but so is TC's example, The Talk, which also provoked enough of a reaction to get an apology on air (albeit a ****ty one).
    Eventually it did, but one critical difference between Sharon Osbourne misandrist diatribe and all of the examples you've given is that she actually meant it, and even when she delivered her apology, it was clear that she still did. None of the examples you gave can be said to reflect a genuine misogynistic belief from their writers or performers; instead they're designed to elicit shock, black humour or have nothing to do with genders to begin with. Osbourne, on the other hand, truly believed the misandrist offal she was saying and, given the mooted or even supportive reaction from her co-guests (only one made any attempt to challenge her), that is the most chilling thing about it.


  • #156
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    I don't understand why on an Irish message board people are bringing in examples from American television as demonstrating across the board discrimination. It is an entirely different culture with different permissions and taboos, and there is no way you would hear anything of the sort on Irish television. There is no point employing imported examples to talk about Ireland.

    American culture is saturated with violence, from its every day speech to cartoons to you name it.

    When Europeans pick up on it, it sounds amplified to their ears, but you really cannot take a couple of American examples from tv and make a selectively abstract universal claim.

    When was the last time you could watch an American tv show without seeing an autopsy?

    Does anyone truly believe they would hear any of this kind of stuff on British or Irish television?


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  • #157
    The Pheasant
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭The Pheasant


    clairefontaine wrote: »

    As for women not being so good at math, don't worry when the Chinese start applying for the civil service jobs, the civil service will very quickly have to drop any concessions they have made.
    What because Chinese people or just Asians in general are always good at maths? Yeah and maybe all the black people in the country will win medals for Ireland in sprinting at the next olympics? Can't believe you're trying to cite a stereotypical characteristic of a race of people in order to back up your point


  • #158
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    The Pheasant wrote: »
    What because Chinese people or just Asians in general are always good at maths? Yeah and maybe all the black people in the country will win medals for Ireland in sprinting at the next olympics? Can't believe you're trying to cite a stereotypical characteristic of a race of people in order to back up your point

    Ok I'll delete that part. I was joking in response the ridiculousness of the original assertion.


  • #159
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Does anyone truly believe they would hear any of this kind of stuff on British or Irish television?

    Absolutely, there is definitely misandry in the British media. It may not be as extreme as America, but its certainly there. Andy Gray was sacked from Sky Sports for making a sexist remark about a female official. He said women don't understand the offside rule.

    The difference in his case was that he didn't realise he was on air when he said it. Yet a woman openly joking about a man having his penis chopped off ended in no repercussions except for a half arsed apology.


  • #160
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    Absolutely, there is definitely misandry in the British media. It may not be as extreme as America, but its certainly there. Andy Gray was sacked from Sky Sports for making a sexist remark about a female official. He said women don't understand the offside rule.

    The difference in his case was that he didn't realise he was on air when he said it. Yet a woman openly joking about a man having his penis chopped off ended in no repercussions except for a half arsed apology.

    I guess both medias have their protected species list.

    I do wonder if she would have gotten fired if the man she was joking about was not white.


  • #161
    shoos
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭shoos


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You've actually, in those two lines, demonstrated why such sexism actually exits.

    Southpark actually did a satire on this topic a few years ago, on the back the infamous Debra Lafave case. As was popularly seen with the Lafave case, the attitude of an attractive female adult teacher having sex with an under-age male student was that somehow he was 'lucky'.

    This despite the reason for why sex with minors is illegal; because they are too young to give informed consent to an act that can lead to serious repercussions. Less said about how the media or the courts treat the same thing when the genders are reversed, the better.

    Now I'm not blaming you for coming out with this same attitude here, if anything it goes to show the extent to which this prejudice is ingrained in our society - that even the victim of such an act can consider himself (almost) 'lucky' to be (almost) abused.

    I just came across this article and it reminded me of this post.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nfl-cheerleader-charged-offering-sex-pre-teen-article-1.1295895

    42 year old woman sexually assaults 12 year old boy. Maybe would have been considered a horrible crime, except for the fact she used to be a hot NFL cheerleader. Apparently that makes it ok.

    I've looked at comments under articles from a few different websites, and here's what some people think:

    "Where was she when I was 12?"

    "Read my mind! Even at 12 I would've been smart enough to keepmy mouth shut. Geeeze, you would think she tried to make him eat brussell sprouts!"

    "this kid must be a homo .."

    "This is not a big deal,there are much more serious matters to deal with in this world,I had sex with an older woman when I was 12,it was great,..this kid is a loser."

    "Some kids have all the luck."

    "Wut i take from this is the kid is gay, i know when i was 12 i would have helped her pull off my pants."

    and so on...


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  • #162
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    shoos wrote: »
    I just came across this article and it reminded me of this post.
    I think you may have linked to the wrong article.


  • #163
    shoos
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭shoos


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I think you may have linked to the wrong article.

    Whoops, so I did.

    Fixed it there!


  • #164
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Pawned Rig wrote:
    Secondly and this is anecdotal from family members who work in CS. If there is say 10 jobs advertised at a particular grade it can be the case where they will only hire women where there is seen to be a lack of women in the relevant grade. So if there are 50 applicants with 10 of them women then they may put all women through for balance.
    Presuming such quotas exist, you've only given, at best, an example of where there is a shortage of women. To demonstrate that such a policy is sexist, you'd also have to show that they are not applied in favour of men where there is a shortage of men. Without that, you can speculate that the policy is sexist, but you've not actually demonstrated it.
    I've heard Ministers talk in media interviews about all-female shortlists.

    Can anyone mention hearing of any equivalent for men in the civil service? If not, then the point seems valid.


  • #165
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    On the issue of possible differences in abilities between the sexes, here are A1s results from L. Cert 2012 (Higher Level) http://examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=st&sc=r12:

    English: Girls: 820 Boys: 538 (Girls get 52.4% more A1s)

    Irish: Girls: 841 Boys: 318 (Girls get 164.5% more A1s)

    French: Girls: 593: Boys: 313 (Girls get 89.5% more A1s)

    Mathematics: Girls: 83: Boys: 267 (Boys get 221.7% more A1s)

    These are the extremes - the average difference between them isn't this big.

    But currently, either due to nature and/or nurture, there are differences.

    So if the Civil service doesn't count mathematical ability, when choosing the top candidates (it is only choosing the top 10% according to the poster) it may be due to discrimination.


  • #166
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I'm not saying that these accusations are false, only that they're not proven. And I'm pointing this out because:
    1. They may be untrue.
    2. They may be true, but the argument that demonstrating that they are is so flaky that you'd be torn apart in a balanced debate.
    And I'm sure you'll agree that we don't want to fall into either of those scenarios.
    iptba wrote: »
    I've heard Ministers talk in media interviews about all-female shortlists.

    Can anyone mention hearing of any equivalent for men in the civil service? If not, then the point seems valid.
    If not, the point may be valid; or we may simply not have anyone here who's come across it - it's just not reasonable proof.

    Not only are we relying on anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that female only shortlists exist, but now we're relying on lack of anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that male only shortlists don't. Very dodgy ground, TBH.
    iptba wrote: »
    So if the Civil service doesn't count mathematical ability, when choosing the top candidates (it is only choosing the top 10% according to the poster) it may be due to discrimination.
    Yes - they may be due to discrimination, not they are due to discrimination. Very important distinction.


  • #167
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    iptba wrote:
    I've heard Ministers talk in media interviews about all-female shortlists.

    Can anyone mention hearing of any equivalent for men in the civil service? If not, then the point seems valid.

    And I'm sure you'll agree that we don't want to fall into either of those scenarios.

    If not, the point may be valid; or we may simply not have anyone here who's come across it - it's just not reasonable proof.

    Not only are we relying on anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that female only shortlists exist, but now we're relying on lack of anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that male only shortlists don't. Very dodgy ground, TBH.
    Perhaps not reasonable proof, but I'm still interested in hearing has anyone heard of gender quotas and all-male or all-female shortlists being used in the Irish civil service, and in what context. There may be opportunities in the future to ask others.

    I was actually shocked when I heard ministers talking about what might be called positive discrimination measures for women (or negative discrimination measures against men) (and the interviewers not particularly challenging them). This was a good few years ago - I listen to Irish radio a lot less now.


  • #168
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    Perhaps not reasonable proof, but I'm still interested in hearing has anyone heard of gender quotas and all-male or all-female shortlists being used in the Irish civil service, and in what context. There may be opportunities in the future to ask others.
    The way I view it is that both of these incidences are hypotheses that may merit further investigation to find proof that:
    1. Discrimination exists.
    2. Discrimination is intentional.
    Bare in mind that just because discrimination exists, it does not mean that it's intentional - or can be proven as such. For example, the Cohabitation Act does de facto discriminate against men, but only because the legal system is already weighted against men in cases of separations. In itself it cannot be said to be designed to do so (even though I suspect some of it's authors were more than aware that it would).

    So before you can say either of these incidences are discriminatory, de facto and/or de jure, you'd need to definitively discover if shortlists for women exist, that they don't for men, contact the relevant minister to seek an explanation why maths is not taken into account in the civil service exams and also get figures on both men and women who apply for the civil service and their success rate on the exams.

    Personally, I suspect the shortlist one may turn out to be so, while the exam criteria one will likely turn out to be unrelated; but I stress, that's just my feeling on it.
    I was actually shocked when I heard ministers talking about what might be called positive discrimination measures for women (or negative discrimination measures against men) (and the interviewers not particularly challenging them). This was a good few years ago - I listen to Irish radio a lot less now.
    That's because there's no real opposition to this agenda in Ireland. Way too busy posting on the Interweb instead.


  • #169
    Kintarō Hattori
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH8c6vJUvpk


    Just saw this on the TV here in Ireland- I'm confident it'd be pulled if the genders were reversed.


  • #170
    Kasen Sweet Guano
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Kasen Sweet Guano


    The advertising standards authority can and do remove ads with complaints - why don't you complain about that one?
    http://www.asai.ie/


  • #171
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    bluewolf wrote: »
    The advertising standards authority can and do remove ads with complaints - why don't you complain about that one?
    http://www.asai.ie/
    ASAI have no statutory power. They are just a talking shop. Try bai.ie.


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  • #172
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    I do retail security for the day job, with one of our clients that I work with mostly being a women's clothes shop.

    Sometimes this requires me to cover the fitting rooms when it's busy, which basically means standing in the waiting area (where husbands, boyfriends etc would also be) and giving out tags to match how many items people are bringing in. It's here that I encounter some severe reverse sexism almost every day. Now it's water off a duck's back at this stage, I just find the attitudes that people secretly have interesting.

    First off there's those who get indignant and have a problem with a man working there. I doubt those same people have similar views on women who work on men-only fitting rooms. But, because I'm a man, it's automatically assumed by some that I MUST be a peeping Tom.

    That's where it gets funny. You see, some women hate the idea of being peeped at, but also hate the idea that they're not worth being peeped at. I have stock responses to deal with certain situations at this stage. For example,

    "Are you allowed work here?"
    "Yep, I'm not allowed inside the changing rooms while people are getting changed, but this is where husbands and so on stand."
    "You're not going to look at me are you?"     (For people thinking that nobody would have the balls to flat out ask this...you'd be wrong)
    "Nope wouldn't dream of it."
    "WHAT'S THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?!?"

    It's literally a can't-win situation. On the sole basis that I'm a man, I'm now automatically a pervert, and I should want to perv on these women, but at the same time shouldn't actually do it.

    Look, I'm happy that the society my little sister (and any future daughters I may have) grows up in are more sexually aware and know to suss out situations like this, but this extension of 'Stay safe' (i.e. 'Until proven otherwise, assume all men are creeps') awareness is borderline slander.


  • #173
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No
    bluewolf wrote: »
    The advertising standards authority can and do remove ads with complaints - why don't you complain about that one?
    http://www.asai.ie/
    "Can but don't" would be more accurate. They have proven themselves blind to 50% of gender discrimination.


  • #174
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    No
    On the sexism I've experienced, it's the refusal to entertain the topic that bothers me the most. Discussing sexism faced my men or mens rights, inevitably, at some stage, will have certain people attempt to shut down the conversation/topic. Be it thread derailment, or petty "women have it worse" type belittlement.


  • #175
    Kintarō Hattori
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    RainyDay wrote: »
    ASAI have no statutory power. They are just a talking shop. Try bai.ie.

    I'll certainly give it a shot- the thing is though I have UPC and don't know what station it was being broadcast on. I'm guessing I'd need to know this?


  • #176
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,669 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    leggo wrote: »
    I do retail security for the day job, with one of our clients that I work with mostly being a women's clothes shop.

    Sometimes this requires me to cover the fitting rooms when it's busy, which basically means standing in the waiting area (where husbands, boyfriends etc would also be) and giving out tags to match how many items people are bringing in. It's here that I encounter some severe reverse sexism almost every day. Now it's water off a duck's back at this stage, I just find the attitudes that people secretly have interesting.

    First off there's those who get indignant and have a problem with a man working there. I doubt those same people have similar views on women who work on men-only fitting rooms. But, because I'm a man, it's automatically assumed by some that I MUST be a peeping Tom.

    That's where it gets funny. You see, some women hate the idea of being peeped at, but also hate the idea that they're not worth being peeped at. I have stock responses to deal with certain situations at this stage. For example,

    "Are you allowed work here?"
    "Yep, I'm not allowed inside the changing rooms while people are getting changed, but this is where husbands and so on stand."
    "You're not going to look at me are you?"     (For people thinking that nobody would have the balls to flat out ask this...you'd be wrong)
    "Nope wouldn't dream of it."
    "WHAT'S THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?!?"

    It's literally a can't-win situation. On the sole basis that I'm a man, I'm now automatically a pervert, and I should want to perv on these women, but at the same time shouldn't actually do it.

    Look, I'm happy that the society my little sister (and any future daughters I may have) grows up in are more sexually aware and know to suss out situations like this, but this extension of 'Stay safe' (i.e. 'Until proven otherwise, assume all men are creeps') awareness is borderline slander.

    Christ that's unreal to have to put up with that kind of stuff being said to you.

    And you are right, if the situation was reversed and those things were said to a woman there would be blue murder.


  • #177
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Kintarō Hattori wrote: »
    I'll certainly give it a shot- the thing is though I have UPC and don't know what station it was being broadcast on. I'm guessing I'd need to know this?

    That ad is in a Northern European language (maybe Swedish??) I doubt it would be covered by the Irish body.


  • #178
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,304 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    maybe
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    That ad is in a Northern European language (maybe Swedish??) I doubt it would be covered by the Irish body.
    This has been shown on the Irish TV, but probably on Sky.


  • #179
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    the_syco wrote: »
    This has been shown on the Irish TV, but probably on Sky.
    Kintarō Hattori wrote: »
    I'll certainly give it a shot- the thing is though I have UPC and don't know what station it was being broadcast on. I'm guessing I'd need to know this?

    Yes, you'd want to know that it was on an Irish channel before going to BAI


  • #180
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Zulu wrote: »
    On the sexism I've experienced, it's the refusal to entertain the topic that bothers me the most. Discussing sexism faced my men or mens rights, inevitably, at some stage, will have certain people attempt to shut down the conversation/topic. Be it thread derailment, or petty "women have it worse" type belittlement.

    This is absolutely true. While women are usually commended for highlighting sexism against them, men are often accused of been whingebags for tryng to discuss it when they're on the receiving end of it. You're not allowed to complain about it basically. You have to grow a pair and stop your whinging.


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  • #181
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    No
    When I did event security we were told if we ever come across a lost child we must get a female member of staff immediately and under no circumstances be alone with the child.


  • #182
    Kintarō Hattori
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    That ad is in a Northern European language (maybe Swedish??) I doubt it would be covered by the Irish body.

    That advert isn't in English but the one I watched was. I clearly wouldn't be reporting something broadcast in a different country.


  • #183
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Christ that's unreal to have to put up with that kind of stuff being said to you.

    And you are right, if the situation was reversed and those things were said to a woman there would be blue murder.

    It's hilarious when you get used to it and can just stand back and see how offensive people can be without even realising. Not only that, but they feel as if they're the one's on the moral high ground when they say it. And that's only the stuff they say to my face, you'd want to hear what they've said behind my back to the girls I work with (who, of course, came straight to me and told me).

    I've flat out had girls call me a pervert to colleagues behind my back when I was simply standing in a place I'd been told to stand. Of course anyone who knows me knows different, but it's still not pleasant to even have to come up with an answer to that. You feel as if the other person will think you're guilty by virtue of just having to defend yourself.
    Standman wrote: »
    When I did event security we were told if we ever come across a lost child we must get a female member of staff immediately and under no circumstances be alone with the child.

    Yes! This is another one in security: a man is also not advised to detain a woman without having a female witness with him the whole time. Reason being that he'll often subsequently get accused of touching them up or the like.

    And yes, you might feel like this is just a precaution, but this happens a LOT. I've had women I've detained try and accuse me of horrible stuff while in full view of cameras and with female witnesses galore around (I'm very careful with this stuff, you have to be). I've had Gardaí had to carry out routine investigations (even though they knew the score themselves) and even had an ex ask me about it when she had a family member in the force run a background check on the new fella. Imagine the shock when he came back with THAT?!?

    The funny thing is: you read this stuff and see how much I'm accused as a security guard and I wouldn't blame you for thinking, "Hmm there's no smoke without fire though..." That's where sexism is really damaging: those beliefs can fester when unchallenged and it's why it's allowed to roam so openly. There'll always be a woman who'll come along and belittle the issue by saying, "Yeah well women have it worse!"...as if that's somehow relevant.

    Ultimately the only 'crime' I've ever committed, though, is 'being a man'.


  • #184
    Wise Old Elf
    Moderators Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭Wise Old Elf


    At a lower level than some of the recent posts, but Childcare has been in the media a lot recently in the context of mortgage write offs, etc, and it is bugging the bejesus out of me when numerous broadcasters (Norah Casey on Newstalk is the biggest culprit) keep talking about women paying childcare, as if it's never a man's or a family unit's responsibility.
    That, and the continuous reference to Childrens' Allowance being a payment to mothers. Grrrr.


  • #185
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Not the worst thing but I remember some guys at school were quite annoyed they couldn't have long hair. It was an all boys' school, but still the thought was that girls would be allowed have short or long hair.


  • #186
    ConFurioso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    If it's an all boys school, I wouldn't consider that sexism. It's uniform. (Like it of loathe it I suppose...)

    But I do remember being in a mixed school where girls could go Rapunzel on their hair and anything past the chin line was bad for the boys.

    In the grand scheme of things, very minor, but it's interesting how these instances of sexism are brushed over.


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  • #187
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,669 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I remember being on the Luas a few years ago and as usual the tram was full, I was sitting in my seat minding my own business as it stopped to let more people on.

    There was one seat available and this was taken by a woman and her friend was standing next to her.

    I was reading the paper at the time when next thing I got a thump on the shoulder from the one who got the free seat that "I should have a bit of manners and give up my seat to her friend who was standing".

    Reverse the situation to a man giving a woman a dig on the shoulder and he would be probably up on assault charges...


  • #188
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I was reading the paper at the time when next thing I got a thump on the shoulder from the one who got the free seat that "I should have a bit of manners and give up my seat to her friend who was standing".
    I'll give up my seat for the elderly (65+) and visibly pregnant women. I've had a similar experience to you only once in my life, I suspect because I genuinely don't think that there are many women (or men) who would be so deluded to believe that such conventions still hold in the modern World.

    My response to her was simple; "would you like to be my equal or have my seat? Choose carefully as you're only entitled to one of the two". She responded to this fairly abusively, but a couple of the other people around us chuckled or openly showed support for my response and their reaction silenced her quickly as she knew she had no support.

    Honestly, I think such scenarios are exceedingly rare, because few people would be so deluded as to demand such a privilege today.


  • #189
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Honestly, I think such scenarios are exceedingly rare, because few people would be so deluded as to demand such a privilege today.

    You would be surprised! I see it every day on the tube in London. Chivalric men still exist as do women who expect chivalry from men. It's not common for women to ask for a seat but there are other ways women can make their displeasure known for letting them stand while you sit. I think I said earlier in this thread that I had a dirty newspaper picked up off the floor and thrown in my face on one occassion. Every day there are tut tuts, sighs, dirty looks, agressive behaviour from women trying to obtain a seat by pushing the man closest to the seat out of the way. There are lots of men who still offer a woman an available seat prior to sitting even if that woman is young and without any obvious disability.


  • #190
    kat.mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭kat.mac


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I remember being on the Luas a few years ago and as usual the tram was full, I was sitting in my seat minding my own business as it stopped to let more people on.

    There was one seat available and this was taken by a woman and her friend was standing next to her.

    I was reading the paper at the time when next thing I got a thump on the shoulder from the one who got the free seat that "I should have a bit of manners and give up my seat to her friend who was standing".

    Reverse the situation to a man giving a woman a dig on the shoulder and he would be probably up on assault charges...

    This is just shocking :mad:

    Two things jump out to me - if the woman genuinely needed a seat for a physical reason, then surely asking politely is the way to go? And how do they know that you don't need the seat for a physical reason?

    The ignorance astounds.


  • #191
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Playboy wrote: »
    You would be surprised! I see it every day on the tube in London. Chivalric men still exist as do women who expect chivalry from men.
    TBH, I would be very surprised. While we still indulge in some chivalrous traditions, such as holding doors open and the like, the level of chivalry you're talking about is something one would find in my great-grandfather's generation, when greeting a woman by kissing her hand was still commonplace. Yet so was being left at home to clean the house and mind the children, as a (democratically disenfranchised) wife, while her husband went off to spend time with his mistress - and this is also the flip side of chivalry that people that people tend to forget; chauvinism. The two always go hand in hand, even if it is not immediately apparent.

    Things have changed since his day and as chauvinism has lost favour, so inevitably has chivalry. We still hold onto some of the trappings of it, but it's more lip-service; a shadow of the kind of behaviour we saw a century ago.

    So yes, I would be surprised if it is that common. As I've said, I've only experienced such a scenario once, and I'm no spring chicken, so it's not like I've just been lucky - certainly I've not had a newspaper thrown in my face or I can't think of the last time I've heard any tut-tut.

    This is not to say it does not still exist, but I don't believe it is anything other than a rare occurrence - if not, I really would worry about the sanity of some people, as such expectations (while no doubt not wanting the chauvinism that comes with it) are genuinely deluded.


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  • #192
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    TBH, I would be very surprised. While we still indulge in some chivalrous traditions, such as holding doors open and the like, the level of chivalry you're talking about is something one would find in my great-grandfather's generation, when greeting a woman by kissing her hand was still commonplace. Yet so was being left at home to clean the house and mind the children, as a (democratically disenfranchised) wife, while her husband went off to spend time with his mistress - and this is also the flip side of chivalry that people that people tend to forget; chauvinism. The two always go hand in hand, even if it is not immediately apparent.
    I'm not sure about that. Things can get uncoupled.

    This suggests a view that if the group you belong to have a disadvantage in one area, they will have a counterbalancing advantage in another. I'm not sure things are that straightforward.


  • #193
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    I'm not sure about that. Things can get uncoupled.
    If they have been, they've only been by those women who still seek such level of chivalry without the negative aspects that come with it - the Sex and the City school of feminism. No doubt there are a few of those, but they really would have to be seriously deluded if they expected 19th century chivalry with 21st century equality.

    As to men, my experience is that the more chivalrous one is, the more chauvinistic he is once you scratch the surface, without exception.
    This suggests a view that if the group you belong to have a disadvantage in one area, they will have a counterbalancing advantage in another. I'm not sure things are that straightforward.
    In this, it is pretty straightforward; examine the history of chivalry and the basic principles and logic it is built on. If you don't fancy doing that, watch a few episodes of Game of Thrones. You'll get the idea.


  • #194
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If they have been, they've only been by those women who still seek such level of chivalry without the negative aspects that come with it - the Sex and the City school of feminism. No doubt there are a few of those, but they really would have to be seriously deluded if they expected 19th century chivalry with 21st century equality.

    As to men, my experience is that the more chivalrous one is, the more chauvinistic he is once you scratch the surface, without exception.
    But sometimes one can end up doing things because of other people's beliefs. For example, one may not believe in "women and children first" in an emergency, but other people may effectively force one to go along with it.


  • #195
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    But sometimes one can end up doing things because of other people's beliefs. For example, one may not believe in "women and children first" in an emergency, but other people may effectively force one to go along with it.
    You're confusing belief in a mode of behaviour and coercion into it. We're discussing the former, not people who are not at all chivalrous, but forced into behaving so.


  • #196
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    TBH, I would be very surprised. While we still indulge in some chivalrous traditions, such as holding doors open and the like, the level of chivalry you're talking about is something one would find in my great-grandfather's generation, when greeting a woman by kissing her hand was still commonplace. Yet so was being left at home to clean the house and mind the children, as a (democratically disenfranchised) wife, while her husband went off to spend time with his mistress - and this is also the flip side of chivalry that people that people tend to forget; chauvinism. The two always go hand in hand, even if it is not immediately apparent.

    Things have changed since his day and as chauvinism has lost favour, so inevitably has chivalry. We still hold onto some of the trappings of it, but it's more lip-service; a shadow of the kind of behaviour we saw a century ago.

    So yes, I would be surprised if it is that common. As I've said, I've only experienced such a scenario once, and I'm no spring chicken, so it's not like I've just been lucky - certainly I've not had a newspaper thrown in my face or I can't think of the last time I've heard any tut-tut.

    This is not to say it does not still exist, but I don't believe it is anything other than a rare occurrence - if not, I really would worry about the sanity of some people, as such expectations (while no doubt not wanting the chauvinism that comes with it) are genuinely deluded.

    I think it is partially down to what a multi cultural city London is. You have people from all cultures and walks of life working and living in the city and some cultures still have a more old fashioned approach to things that harks back to a bygone era. Not a day has passed in about 6 months where I have not seen a man offer a seat to a healthy woman. I have never seen a woman offer a man a seat. While the sighs and dirty looks are not as common a behaviour I still see it very regularly. Also when a pregnant woman gets on the tube it is nearly always a man that offers his seat and rarely a woman. I think there are a lot of people out there whilst believing in equality still think some of this old fashioned chivalric behaviour is a essential component of good manners.


  • #197
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Playboy wrote: »
    I think it is partially down to what a multi cultural city London is. You have people from all cultures and walks of life working and living in the city and some cultures still have a more old fashioned approach to things that harks back to a bygone era. Not a day has passed in about 6 months where I have not seen a man offer a seat to a healthy woman. I have never seen a woman offer a man a seat. While the sighs and dirty looks are not as common a behaviour I still see it very regularly. Also when a pregnant woman gets on the tube it is nearly always a man that offers his seat and rarely a woman. I think there are a lot of people out there whilst believing in equality still think some of this old fashioned chivalric behaviour is a essential component of good manners.

    I have seen plenty of women on the tube, the metro and the subway give up seats for the elderly, for pregnant women, and for the injured.

    This really has nothing to do with chivalry. And everything to do with kindness. But some might misread it as condescension.


  • #198
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    clairefontaine wrote: »
    I have seen plenty of women on the tube, the metro and the subway give up seats for the elderly, for pregnant women, and for the injured.

    This really has nothing to do with chivalry. And everything to do with kindness. But some might misread it as condescension.

    A different experience to mine but I travel on the tube every day and have done for years at the height of rush hour. Woman now have a baby on board badge they wear which helps with any confusion but I can assure that 8/10 times it is a man that offers a pregnant woman a seat. It happens every day and I take particular notice because it interests me.


  • #199
    MMAGirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 484 ✭✭MMAGirl


    Its funny, i just posted this in another thread, then spotted this one.

    On the days when I am in the office.
    There are about 100 people on the floor. you can see everyone from the shoulders up and all of the things like people chatting or looking up to see what everyone else is laughing at etc makes open plan a stupid idea.
    But something quite funny happens when I stand up. I stand up to walk to the water fountain or someone elses desk. ALL of the heads look up and start staring at me and just follow me around as I walk. I am assuming the reason is that I have rather large boobs. Way larger than average. And they look even bigger because I am slim. The boss, who is almost the same build as me told me she noticed it too and she just sits down most of the time.
    I dont mind really. Getting it ever since I was 12. I laugh to myself.
    Wouldnt happen without open plan though.

    Wouldnt happen if I didnt have big boobs either, so can it be called sexism really.


  • #200
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    MMAGirl wrote: »
    Its funny, i just posted this in another thread, then spotted this one.

    On the days when I am in the office.
    There are about 100 people on the floor. you can see everyone from the shoulders up and all of the things like people chatting or looking up to see what everyone else is laughing at etc makes open plan a stupid idea.
    But something quite funny happens when I stand up. I stand up to walk to the water fountain or someone elses desk. ALL of the heads look up and start staring at me and just follow me around as I walk. I am assuming the reason is that I have rather large boobs. Way larger than average. And they look even bigger because I am slim. The boss, who is almost the same build as me told me she noticed it too and she just sits down most of the time.
    I dont mind really. Getting it ever since I was 12. I laugh to myself.
    Wouldnt happen without open plan though.

    Wouldnt happen if I didnt have big boobs either, so can it be called sexism really.
    Not sure if it's sexism.

    But if it is, I don't think it is sexism against men, which is what this thread is about.

    I believe there is a similar thread for women in the Ladies Lounge: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1011


  • #201
    MMAGirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 484 ✭✭MMAGirl


    iptba wrote: »
    Not sure if it's sexism.

    But if it is, I don't think it is sexism against men, which is what this thread is about.

    I believe there is a similar thread for women in the Ladies Lounge: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1011

    So because im a woman i can post my experience in this thread.
    Not that is .....


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