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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,974 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    That ad is in a Northern European language (maybe Swedish??) I doubt it would be covered by the Irish body.

    That advert isn't in English but the one I watched was. I clearly wouldn't be reporting something broadcast in a different country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Christ that's unreal to have to put up with that kind of stuff being said to you.

    And you are right, if the situation was reversed and those things were said to a woman there would be blue murder.

    It's hilarious when you get used to it and can just stand back and see how offensive people can be without even realising. Not only that, but they feel as if they're the one's on the moral high ground when they say it. And that's only the stuff they say to my face, you'd want to hear what they've said behind my back to the girls I work with (who, of course, came straight to me and told me).

    I've flat out had girls call me a pervert to colleagues behind my back when I was simply standing in a place I'd been told to stand. Of course anyone who knows me knows different, but it's still not pleasant to even have to come up with an answer to that. You feel as if the other person will think you're guilty by virtue of just having to defend yourself.
    Standman wrote: »
    When I did event security we were told if we ever come across a lost child we must get a female member of staff immediately and under no circumstances be alone with the child.

    Yes! This is another one in security: a man is also not advised to detain a woman without having a female witness with him the whole time. Reason being that he'll often subsequently get accused of touching them up or the like.

    And yes, you might feel like this is just a precaution, but this happens a LOT. I've had women I've detained try and accuse me of horrible stuff while in full view of cameras and with female witnesses galore around (I'm very careful with this stuff, you have to be). I've had Gardaí had to carry out routine investigations (even though they knew the score themselves) and even had an ex ask me about it when she had a family member in the force run a background check on the new fella. Imagine the shock when he came back with THAT?!?

    The funny thing is: you read this stuff and see how much I'm accused as a security guard and I wouldn't blame you for thinking, "Hmm there's no smoke without fire though..." That's where sexism is really damaging: those beliefs can fester when unchallenged and it's why it's allowed to roam so openly. There'll always be a woman who'll come along and belittle the issue by saying, "Yeah well women have it worse!"...as if that's somehow relevant.

    Ultimately the only 'crime' I've ever committed, though, is 'being a man'.


  • Moderators Posts: 3,554 ✭✭✭Wise Old Elf


    At a lower level than some of the recent posts, but Childcare has been in the media a lot recently in the context of mortgage write offs, etc, and it is bugging the bejesus out of me when numerous broadcasters (Norah Casey on Newstalk is the biggest culprit) keep talking about women paying childcare, as if it's never a man's or a family unit's responsibility.
    That, and the continuous reference to Childrens' Allowance being a payment to mothers. Grrrr.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Not the worst thing but I remember some guys at school were quite annoyed they couldn't have long hair. It was an all boys' school, but still the thought was that girls would be allowed have short or long hair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    If it's an all boys school, I wouldn't consider that sexism. It's uniform. (Like it of loathe it I suppose...)

    But I do remember being in a mixed school where girls could go Rapunzel on their hair and anything past the chin line was bad for the boys.

    In the grand scheme of things, very minor, but it's interesting how these instances of sexism are brushed over.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,381 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I remember being on the Luas a few years ago and as usual the tram was full, I was sitting in my seat minding my own business as it stopped to let more people on.

    There was one seat available and this was taken by a woman and her friend was standing next to her.

    I was reading the paper at the time when next thing I got a thump on the shoulder from the one who got the free seat that "I should have a bit of manners and give up my seat to her friend who was standing".

    Reverse the situation to a man giving a woman a dig on the shoulder and he would be probably up on assault charges...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I was reading the paper at the time when next thing I got a thump on the shoulder from the one who got the free seat that "I should have a bit of manners and give up my seat to her friend who was standing".
    I'll give up my seat for the elderly (65+) and visibly pregnant women. I've had a similar experience to you only once in my life, I suspect because I genuinely don't think that there are many women (or men) who would be so deluded to believe that such conventions still hold in the modern World.

    My response to her was simple; "would you like to be my equal or have my seat? Choose carefully as you're only entitled to one of the two". She responded to this fairly abusively, but a couple of the other people around us chuckled or openly showed support for my response and their reaction silenced her quickly as she knew she had no support.

    Honestly, I think such scenarios are exceedingly rare, because few people would be so deluded as to demand such a privilege today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    Honestly, I think such scenarios are exceedingly rare, because few people would be so deluded as to demand such a privilege today.

    You would be surprised! I see it every day on the tube in London. Chivalric men still exist as do women who expect chivalry from men. It's not common for women to ask for a seat but there are other ways women can make their displeasure known for letting them stand while you sit. I think I said earlier in this thread that I had a dirty newspaper picked up off the floor and thrown in my face on one occassion. Every day there are tut tuts, sighs, dirty looks, agressive behaviour from women trying to obtain a seat by pushing the man closest to the seat out of the way. There are lots of men who still offer a woman an available seat prior to sitting even if that woman is young and without any obvious disability.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭kat.mac


    I remember being on the Luas a few years ago and as usual the tram was full, I was sitting in my seat minding my own business as it stopped to let more people on.

    There was one seat available and this was taken by a woman and her friend was standing next to her.

    I was reading the paper at the time when next thing I got a thump on the shoulder from the one who got the free seat that "I should have a bit of manners and give up my seat to her friend who was standing".

    Reverse the situation to a man giving a woman a dig on the shoulder and he would be probably up on assault charges...

    This is just shocking :mad:

    Two things jump out to me - if the woman genuinely needed a seat for a physical reason, then surely asking politely is the way to go? And how do they know that you don't need the seat for a physical reason?

    The ignorance astounds.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Playboy wrote: »
    You would be surprised! I see it every day on the tube in London. Chivalric men still exist as do women who expect chivalry from men.
    TBH, I would be very surprised. While we still indulge in some chivalrous traditions, such as holding doors open and the like, the level of chivalry you're talking about is something one would find in my great-grandfather's generation, when greeting a woman by kissing her hand was still commonplace. Yet so was being left at home to clean the house and mind the children, as a (democratically disenfranchised) wife, while her husband went off to spend time with his mistress - and this is also the flip side of chivalry that people that people tend to forget; chauvinism. The two always go hand in hand, even if it is not immediately apparent.

    Things have changed since his day and as chauvinism has lost favour, so inevitably has chivalry. We still hold onto some of the trappings of it, but it's more lip-service; a shadow of the kind of behaviour we saw a century ago.

    So yes, I would be surprised if it is that common. As I've said, I've only experienced such a scenario once, and I'm no spring chicken, so it's not like I've just been lucky - certainly I've not had a newspaper thrown in my face or I can't think of the last time I've heard any tut-tut.

    This is not to say it does not still exist, but I don't believe it is anything other than a rare occurrence - if not, I really would worry about the sanity of some people, as such expectations (while no doubt not wanting the chauvinism that comes with it) are genuinely deluded.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    TBH, I would be very surprised. While we still indulge in some chivalrous traditions, such as holding doors open and the like, the level of chivalry you're talking about is something one would find in my great-grandfather's generation, when greeting a woman by kissing her hand was still commonplace. Yet so was being left at home to clean the house and mind the children, as a (democratically disenfranchised) wife, while her husband went off to spend time with his mistress - and this is also the flip side of chivalry that people that people tend to forget; chauvinism. The two always go hand in hand, even if it is not immediately apparent.
    I'm not sure about that. Things can get uncoupled.

    This suggests a view that if the group you belong to have a disadvantage in one area, they will have a counterbalancing advantage in another. I'm not sure things are that straightforward.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    I'm not sure about that. Things can get uncoupled.
    If they have been, they've only been by those women who still seek such level of chivalry without the negative aspects that come with it - the Sex and the City school of feminism. No doubt there are a few of those, but they really would have to be seriously deluded if they expected 19th century chivalry with 21st century equality.

    As to men, my experience is that the more chivalrous one is, the more chauvinistic he is once you scratch the surface, without exception.
    This suggests a view that if the group you belong to have a disadvantage in one area, they will have a counterbalancing advantage in another. I'm not sure things are that straightforward.
    In this, it is pretty straightforward; examine the history of chivalry and the basic principles and logic it is built on. If you don't fancy doing that, watch a few episodes of Game of Thrones. You'll get the idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    If they have been, they've only been by those women who still seek such level of chivalry without the negative aspects that come with it - the Sex and the City school of feminism. No doubt there are a few of those, but they really would have to be seriously deluded if they expected 19th century chivalry with 21st century equality.

    As to men, my experience is that the more chivalrous one is, the more chauvinistic he is once you scratch the surface, without exception.
    But sometimes one can end up doing things because of other people's beliefs. For example, one may not believe in "women and children first" in an emergency, but other people may effectively force one to go along with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    But sometimes one can end up doing things because of other people's beliefs. For example, one may not believe in "women and children first" in an emergency, but other people may effectively force one to go along with it.
    You're confusing belief in a mode of behaviour and coercion into it. We're discussing the former, not people who are not at all chivalrous, but forced into behaving so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    TBH, I would be very surprised. While we still indulge in some chivalrous traditions, such as holding doors open and the like, the level of chivalry you're talking about is something one would find in my great-grandfather's generation, when greeting a woman by kissing her hand was still commonplace. Yet so was being left at home to clean the house and mind the children, as a (democratically disenfranchised) wife, while her husband went off to spend time with his mistress - and this is also the flip side of chivalry that people that people tend to forget; chauvinism. The two always go hand in hand, even if it is not immediately apparent.

    Things have changed since his day and as chauvinism has lost favour, so inevitably has chivalry. We still hold onto some of the trappings of it, but it's more lip-service; a shadow of the kind of behaviour we saw a century ago.

    So yes, I would be surprised if it is that common. As I've said, I've only experienced such a scenario once, and I'm no spring chicken, so it's not like I've just been lucky - certainly I've not had a newspaper thrown in my face or I can't think of the last time I've heard any tut-tut.

    This is not to say it does not still exist, but I don't believe it is anything other than a rare occurrence - if not, I really would worry about the sanity of some people, as such expectations (while no doubt not wanting the chauvinism that comes with it) are genuinely deluded.

    I think it is partially down to what a multi cultural city London is. You have people from all cultures and walks of life working and living in the city and some cultures still have a more old fashioned approach to things that harks back to a bygone era. Not a day has passed in about 6 months where I have not seen a man offer a seat to a healthy woman. I have never seen a woman offer a man a seat. While the sighs and dirty looks are not as common a behaviour I still see it very regularly. Also when a pregnant woman gets on the tube it is nearly always a man that offers his seat and rarely a woman. I think there are a lot of people out there whilst believing in equality still think some of this old fashioned chivalric behaviour is a essential component of good manners.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Playboy wrote: »
    I think it is partially down to what a multi cultural city London is. You have people from all cultures and walks of life working and living in the city and some cultures still have a more old fashioned approach to things that harks back to a bygone era. Not a day has passed in about 6 months where I have not seen a man offer a seat to a healthy woman. I have never seen a woman offer a man a seat. While the sighs and dirty looks are not as common a behaviour I still see it very regularly. Also when a pregnant woman gets on the tube it is nearly always a man that offers his seat and rarely a woman. I think there are a lot of people out there whilst believing in equality still think some of this old fashioned chivalric behaviour is a essential component of good manners.

    I have seen plenty of women on the tube, the metro and the subway give up seats for the elderly, for pregnant women, and for the injured.

    This really has nothing to do with chivalry. And everything to do with kindness. But some might misread it as condescension.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    I have seen plenty of women on the tube, the metro and the subway give up seats for the elderly, for pregnant women, and for the injured.

    This really has nothing to do with chivalry. And everything to do with kindness. But some might misread it as condescension.

    A different experience to mine but I travel on the tube every day and have done for years at the height of rush hour. Woman now have a baby on board badge they wear which helps with any confusion but I can assure that 8/10 times it is a man that offers a pregnant woman a seat. It happens every day and I take particular notice because it interests me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭MMAGirl


    Its funny, i just posted this in another thread, then spotted this one.

    On the days when I am in the office.
    There are about 100 people on the floor. you can see everyone from the shoulders up and all of the things like people chatting or looking up to see what everyone else is laughing at etc makes open plan a stupid idea.
    But something quite funny happens when I stand up. I stand up to walk to the water fountain or someone elses desk. ALL of the heads look up and start staring at me and just follow me around as I walk. I am assuming the reason is that I have rather large boobs. Way larger than average. And they look even bigger because I am slim. The boss, who is almost the same build as me told me she noticed it too and she just sits down most of the time.
    I dont mind really. Getting it ever since I was 12. I laugh to myself.
    Wouldnt happen without open plan though.

    Wouldnt happen if I didnt have big boobs either, so can it be called sexism really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    MMAGirl wrote: »
    Its funny, i just posted this in another thread, then spotted this one.

    On the days when I am in the office.
    There are about 100 people on the floor. you can see everyone from the shoulders up and all of the things like people chatting or looking up to see what everyone else is laughing at etc makes open plan a stupid idea.
    But something quite funny happens when I stand up. I stand up to walk to the water fountain or someone elses desk. ALL of the heads look up and start staring at me and just follow me around as I walk. I am assuming the reason is that I have rather large boobs. Way larger than average. And they look even bigger because I am slim. The boss, who is almost the same build as me told me she noticed it too and she just sits down most of the time.
    I dont mind really. Getting it ever since I was 12. I laugh to myself.
    Wouldnt happen without open plan though.

    Wouldnt happen if I didnt have big boobs either, so can it be called sexism really.
    Not sure if it's sexism.

    But if it is, I don't think it is sexism against men, which is what this thread is about.

    I believe there is a similar thread for women in the Ladies Lounge: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1011


  • Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭MMAGirl


    iptba wrote: »
    Not sure if it's sexism.

    But if it is, I don't think it is sexism against men, which is what this thread is about.

    I believe there is a similar thread for women in the Ladies Lounge: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1011

    So because im a woman i can post my experience in this thread.
    Not that is .....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    MMAGirl wrote: »
    So because im a woman i can post my experience in this thread.
    Not that is .....
    I think you meant "can't" in the first sentence? Will read it that way.

    If it related to the conversation e.g. somebody thought something was sexist against men but somebody gave a counterargument, it might then be on topic. But the example you gave doesn't seem to fit that, that I can see - or was there a particular post you had in mind?

    The original poster specified what he was looking for in the first post, although the title itself may appear a bit unclear if one hasn't read that post.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    As to men, my experience is that the more chivalrous one is, the more chauvinistic he is once you scratch the surface, without exception.

    Well said, that's very much true alright.

    I know one guy in particular that will completely fawn over women, the real knight in shining armor. However once the woman's back is turned cue a million and one lewd, sexual or condescending comments.

    In fairness a lot of the women don't see through him, some do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Playboy wrote: »
    Woman now have a baby on board badgte they wear which helps with any confusion

    :D is this a common thing over there man? Pregnant women wearing 'baby on board' badges?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    No
    strobe wrote: »
    :D is this a common thing over there man? Pregnant women wearing 'baby on board' badges?

    Yes... And it's a good idea imo. I have mistakenly offered a woman a seat a couple of times because I thought they might be pregnant but it turned out they just had a bit of a belly. I don't blame them for being offended in that case but it is a honest mistake and particularly the second time around I got a very aggressive reaction. Transport for London now sends out free baby on board badges to expectant mothers on request so thankfully those kind of situations can be avoided now most of the time. Tbh the tube gets so busy that it can be very uncomfortable for a pregnant woman if standing. Had a lady nearly puke on me recently because she had morning sickness and standing in a very cramped space was the last thing she needed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Playboy wrote: »
    I think it is partially down to what a multi cultural city London is. You have people from all cultures and walks of life working and living in the city and some cultures still have a more old fashioned approach to things that harks back to a bygone era.
    Fair enough; I was thinking more of Western culture in the context of someone who has grown up in a post-feminist society, as opposed to an immigrant from an Islamic nation who still holds onto medieval views with regard to the genders.
    I think there are a lot of people out there whilst believing in equality still think some of this old fashioned chivalric behaviour is a essential component of good manners.
    Not Westerners though, although Americans are often a law onto themselves in this regard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    I'm not convinced that chivalry is necessarily dying out. I think plenty of men are still more willing to put themselves out for women than other men. Part of it may be that they feel it might increase their chances of dating/similar the woman.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    iptba wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that chivalry is necessarily dying out.
    The conventions of chivalry will likely not fully die out for centuries. After all, we still follow social conventions that we don't even understand and are frankly irrelevant.

    For example, when passing women or older people we still often pass them on the outside (in the direction of the middle of the road). Why? Because roads were once concave and unpaved, with horse mature, rainwater and all sort of refuse collecting in the centre, so giving others the 'high ground' was a courtesy.

    Or the tradition of toasting; in reality born of paranoia, where both would drink simultaneously, while watching each other (eye contact is still important as part of the toast in many countries) so as to ensure that no one was being poisoned.

    And many of the superficial traditions of chivalry will also continue in the same vain, long after we even know were they came from or what they're supposed to mean.

    However, the less superficial ones - those that require actual sacrifice - will go the way of the dodo. And this is already increasingly the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,737 ✭✭✭Hococop


    i remember reading some article years ago before about an all male golf club, anyway women golfers felt this was sexist to keep it an all male golf club in modern society which is understandable, the golf club understood this and opened to both males and females, yet within a short time of the change made the female golfers complained that they were paying the same fees as male golfers and felt they should be entitled to cheaper fees


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,737 ✭✭✭Hococop


    shoos wrote: »
    I just came across this article and it reminded me of this post.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nfl-cheerleader-charged-offering-sex-pre-teen-article-1.1295895

    42 year old woman sexually assaults 12 year old boy. Maybe would have been considered a horrible crime, except for the fact she used to be a hot NFL cheerleader. Apparently that makes it ok.

    I've looked at comments under articles from a few different websites, and here's what some people think:

    "Where was she when I was 12?"

    "Read my mind! Even at 12 I would've been smart enough to keepmy mouth shut. Geeeze, you would think she tried to make him eat brussell sprouts!"

    "this kid must be a homo .."

    "This is not a big deal,there are much more serious matters to deal with in this world,I had sex with an older woman when I was 12,it was great,..this kid is a loser."

    "Some kids have all the luck."

    "Wut i take from this is the kid is gay, i know when i was 12 i would have helped her pull off my pants."

    and so on...

    read some news article posted before something similar with a young female teacher and male student, it was found out and when it went to court the teacher got off with a light sentence,

    but i remember reading that the judge said something like "if it had been a male teacher and a female student i would be giving a harsher sentencing" which was crazy

    sorry i dont have the link to it i will try and find it


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,381 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Hococop wrote: »
    read some news article posted before something similar with a young female teacher and male student, it was found out and when it went to court the teacher got off with a light sentence,

    but i remember reading that the judge said something like "if it had been a male teacher and a female student i would be giving a harsher sentencing" which was crazy

    sorry i dont have the link to it i will try and find it

    Not fully the same situation but I remember when the child abuse scandal was coming out we were discussing it at work one day.

    One of the women said that if she had a daughter who was an abuse victim she would kill the abuser.

    Someone mentioned to her that is would be just as bad if it happened to a boy to which she replied that she didn't think it would affect boys as much.

    Cue stunned silence all around.


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