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Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

135678

Comments

  • #102
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    There is no real point in the dimplex (or similar) product interfacing to the smart meter. The smart meter doesn't 'know' the day-ahead or intra-day price. You can't base the scheduling on anything the meter knows. You might use the meter for signalling, sure, but you could also use some other infrastructure.


  • #103
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!

    Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.

    Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.

    So let me give you a real world example.

    - You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.

    - 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,

    etc. etc.

    - 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.

    - 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.

    Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.

    Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.

    For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).

    Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.

    Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.


  • #104
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    bk wrote: »
    BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!

    Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.

    Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.

    So let me give you a real world example.

    - You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.

    - 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,

    etc. etc.

    - 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.

    - 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.

    Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.

    Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.

    For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).

    Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.

    Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.



    The nonsense of this example demonstrates why smarts don't help cars.

    The car has a given time in which to recharge, because its owner needs it ready for 7am .

    The car can't go " naw " let's not charge in this time slot , because the net effect could be that it has to charge in the dearest slots simply because it's run out of available time.

    ToU tariffs are formulated on the basis that consumption devices do not consume large parts of the 24 hour day drawing a very significant % of the house MIC. EVs are actually unsuited to 30 minute ToU tarriffs unless EV charging is a a small fraction of the MIC , i.e. The house has a large MIC and the car has a quick , ie powerful,charger.

    Your example of course overlooks some issues

    there is no internet standard to communicate such tariffs to smart devices.

    Since the remote server cannot initiate a session with a GSM device , the process by which two way commands are sent actualkybis a form of simplex communication. The SM polls the servers and in doing so , reads configuration data , one of which is to activate the supply or disconnect it etc.

    It then carries out its instructions and drops the gsm session

    ( this is why the leaf app takes so long to respond , to wake up your leaf, they have to send it a text message, which then forces the GSM unit to begin a GSM session, the propagation of the text trigger from the japan mobile server to Ireland can take minutes


  • #105
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    bk wrote: »
    BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!

    Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.

    Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.

    So let me give you a real world example.

    - You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.

    - 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,

    etc. etc.

    - 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.

    - 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.

    Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.

    Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.

    For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).

    Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.

    Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.
    We use day ahead pricing , so the price is known 24 hours in advance.

    Here’s tomorrow’s pricing http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/MDB_SMP_EA_EUR.aspx

    Short term load forecasting is pretty accurate and allows for this


  • #106
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    bk wrote: »
    BoatMad, I've explained this already, but you seemed to have missed it or ignored it!

    Your smart devices (such as you EV) won't talk to the smart meter, instead they will talk directly to the servers of your electricity company to see what the cost of electricity for the next 30 minutes is and charge based on that info.

    Smart meters will work, by recording how much electricity you use in a 30 minute block. Separately your electricity company will advertise a certain per kwh rate for each 30 minute block. The smart meter doesn't have any info on the rate, instead the meter uploads your usage in 30 minute blocks to the electricity companies server, once a day, where they will then combine the data with the advertised rate to work out your bill.

    So let me give you a real world example.

    - You come home at 6pm and plug your car in, your car "talks" to your electric companies servers and they tell it that the rate for the next 30 minutes is 20c per kwh. Your car says, nah, I'll wait.

    - 6:30 your car asks again, now it says it will be 18c/kwh, again the car doesn't start yet,

    etc. etc.

    - 11pm comes and the car asks again, the electric company says it will now be 8c/kwh for the next 30 minutes. The car goes, great and starts charging for 30 minutes.

    - 11:30pm the car asks again and your electric company says that the next 30 minutes will still be 7c/kwh and your car continues to charge and so on throughout the night.

    Strictly speaking your smart meter is not directly involved. Your smart devices will connect to the electric companies cloud servers to get the per kwh charge information.

    Behind the scenes the smart meter is indirectly involved, as it is recording what you actually used in 30 minute chunks and then later that is uploaded to the electric companies servers and used to work out what you actually owe.

    For instance it might say that you used 1kwh between 11pm and 11:30pm and 1.5kwh between 11:30 and 12 and will match that info with the advertised rates for those time slot ((.08 x 1) + (.07 x 1.5)).

    Point is, the smart meters don't actually have to be two way for this to work. Your smart devices don't need to talk to the smart meter.

    Though I do note that they seem to be specifying two way comms for the smart meters, so that they can be disabled for smart PAYG services.
    We use day ahead pricing , so the price is known 24 hours in advance.

    Here’s tomorrow’s pricing http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/MDB_SMP_EA_EUR.aspx

    Short term load forecasting is pretty accurate and allows for this


  • #107
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ted1 thanks, that would simplify the process even further as your EV or other smart device only needs to connect to the electric companies servers once a day to get the rates for the next 24 hours.
    BoatMad wrote: »
    The nonsense of this example demonstrates why smarts don't help cars.

    The car has a given time in which to recharge, because its owner needs it ready for 7am .

    The car can't go " naw " let's not charge in this time slot , because the net effect could be that it has to charge in the dearest slots simply because it's run out of available time.

    No it won't. It really is very easy. So say you tell your car to always have a 100% (say 30kwh) charge by 7am. You come home at 6pm with 20kwh left and plug in. Your cars onboard computer knows what the charging tariffs for the next 24 hours are and it sees that you need another 10kwh and that will take about 4 hours to do. It will then pick the cheapest 8 x 30 minutes blocks to get you that 100% charge before 7am

    Simple.

    Of course you can kind of do something like this with night rate meter at the moment. But this offers even greater granularity. Rather then have a single night rate, you could have different rates for each 30 minute block at night and your car can choose to charge within the cheapest ones that suit it

    BoatMad wrote: »
    there is no internet standard to communicate such tariffs to smart devices.

    What do you mean by "internet standard"? It will work over the standard internet IPv4 or IPv6, either over your in home wifi or over the cars own GSM connection. All very standard.

    If you mean they need to define a particular web service API for this. Then sure, but that is pretty trivial, this is my bread and butter, I do it every day!

    BoatMad wrote: »
    Since the remote server cannot initiate a session with a GSM device , the process by which two way commands are sent actualkybis a form of simplex communication. The SM polls the servers and in doing so , reads configuration data , one of which is to activate the supply or disconnect it etc.

    It then carries out its instructions and drops the gsm session

    ( this is why the leaf app takes so long to respond , to wake up your leaf, they have to send it a text message, which then forces the GSM unit to begin a GSM session, the propagation of the text trigger from the japan mobile server to Ireland can take minutes

    You seem to be caught up in the idea of the smart devices (including EV) needing to "talk" to the smart meter. They don't!

    They just need to communicate once every 24 hours with the electric companies web servers to get the rates for the next 24 hours and then base their decision to charge or not based on that info and how much charge they need. Strictly speaking this doesn't involve the smart meter at all. The smart meter simply records what you actually use (in 30 minute blocks) and communicates that info to the electric company servers which combine the usage data with the advertised charging rate.

    How the smart meters actually communicate is actually irrelevant to all this.


  • #108
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24


  • #109
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Saw this line in one of the Farming Threads.

    (Did the same here last year, transformer upgraded from 14kva to 33kva. Main fuse is 130A instead of 80. I have the transformer dedicated to the farm yard and it's 70 meters from the parlour.)


    Now that would be the business for charging two EVs.


  • #110
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Three-phase would be better though ( if it was reasonable price )

    ( thinking of a heatpump too )


  • #111
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Water John wrote: »
    Saw this line in one of the Farming Threads.

    (Did the same here last year, transformer upgraded from 14kva to 33kva. Main fuse is 130A instead of 80. I have the transformer dedicated to the farm yard and it's 70 meters from the parlour.)


    Now that would be the business for charging two EVs.

    The price is the issue there!

    The above example is basically a commercial customer so they can justify the spend. Most houses have a 60A so an upgrade to 80A (€1150) will be enough for the majority even with 2 EV's.


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  • #112
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    They just need to communicate once every 24 hours with the electric companies web servers to get the rates for the next 24 hours and then base their decision to charge or not based on that info and how much charge they need. Strictly speaking this doesn't involve the smart meter at all. The smart meter simply records what you actually use (in 30 minute blocks) and communicates that info to the electric company servers which combine the usage data with the advertised charging rate.

    Given there no data protocols/standards to exchange this info and in fact ToU tariffs are 30 minute based. Im not holding my breath waiting for the Next generation Leaf to communicate with Energias servers, !!!!!. We have actually no idea what is going to made available via web servers, because there is no published detail

    It will be anything up to 2025 before we see final shape of this

    Note that the decision to go for " thin " smart meters" which do not hold the tarrifs, was taken by the CER and is not consistent around Europe


  • #113
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Musk building a large battery storage facility in south Australia.
    100Mw battery, to be built in 100 days. Cost $50m.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/sep/30/elon-musks-big-battery-for-south-australia-already-half-complete

    What differential would be needed to finance it?

    It could also be used for grid balancing, at a fee. Cheaper than pumped storage.


  • #114
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34



    Big jump in the last 30 days to 36%!!


  • #115
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    They just need to communicate once every 24 hours with the electric companies web servers to get the rates for the next 24 hours and then base their decision to charge or not based on that info and how much charge they need. Strictly speaking this doesn't involve the smart meter at all. The smart meter simply records what you actually use (in 30 minute blocks) and communicates that info to the electric company servers which combine the usage data with the advertised charging rate.

    I've nearly 30 years in embedded systems , and Iot ( when it was called M2M ) the availability of API standards in this area is appalling slow and disjointed. I don't expect my 2018, 2019 or any EV in the next 5 years to connect to any energy demand system. In fact the CRU in effect sees 2025 as its final implementation date

    Just as I foresee pay by weight refuse collection, resulting in people's bills going up and not down ( on average ) , I fully expect smart metering as purely an industry incentive, resulting in more expensive electricity for the consumer.

    By the time any EV to energy tariff server connections are resolved, my car will fly and be fully autonomous and I won't own it anyway


  • #116
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,156 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Question: What happens if you live in an apartment or one of the many modern properties where you don't have a driveway or even parking directly outside your own home? How would you charge your car?

    It's a serious question. I don't own an EV myself but will in the future. I have my own driveway but I see properties on a daily basis with IMO nowhere to put a charging point


  • #117
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Question: What happens if you live in an apartment or one of the many modern properties where you don't have a driveway or even parking directly outside your own home? How would you charge your car?

    It's a serious question. I don't own an EV myself but will in the future. I have my own driveway but I see properties on a daily basis with IMO nowhere to put a charging point

    It's a current and serious issue, for which , there are no easy answers. With the new planning provisions , certain new apartment blocks will not have to facilitate cars at all.

    For new builds with car parks , there is a need for national legislation, currently it's on a planning authority by planning authority basis.

    Other then that , there is an argument that with the low mileage urban drivers do, and the increasing range of the batteries, means that such drivers will simply only charge occasionally at relevant publc facilities


  • #118
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23


  • #119
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30


    Something I don't have an explanation for in this months data is that the % wind is a good bit better this month than last month but the gCO2/kW is worse!

    Not sure why/how that is. Obviously something to do with the remainder of the fuel mix.

    Anyone in the know?


  • #120
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Unless on of the Gas Generators was off line, with Moneypoint or peat taking up the slack?


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  • #121
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Because High wind pushes the cleaner plants off the grid. So the mix is Wind +Coal and possible peat.

    If you look at the load in the middle of the night you’ll see that as the load decreases to about 2GW the CO2/kWh increases. So if you charge at night you have a higher CO2 footprint than those charging during the day


  • #122
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,031 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    On the subject of 'smart devices' like EVs and other household equipment needing information from the electricity supplier to make decisions about when to power up/charge, and the difficulties that might pose, I would think that a small programmable device, designed and programmed to get the necessary info from the elec supplier (on its input side) and then able to communicate with say your EV to tell it the times it should charge, would probably cover all eventualities.
    It would introduce a single point of failure, but would simplify things for the user.

    It could be regarded like a modem is now .... program (set it up) to speak to your particular provider, and set up its output side how it communicates with your smart devices and enables them when required.

    I don't see that as a huge hurdle ..... in fact I would quite like to be able to handle all my smart devices (when I get them :) ) from one unit.


  • #123
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ted1 wrote: »
    Because High wind pushes the cleaner plants off the grid. So the mix is Wind +Coal and possible peat.

    If you look at the load in the middle of the night you’ll see that as the load decreases to about 2GW the CO2/kWh increases. So if you charge at night you have a higher CO2 footprint than those charging during the day

    Not quite the question I was asking.

    If you look at row 3 and row 5 of my table. They have similar wind percentages but the gCO2/kWh is much higher in the last 30 days. Something else "unusual" happened in the last 30 days.

    There is a small difference in CO2 intensity from charging between night and day but not much:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103042278&postcount=102


  • #124
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It is great in principle, but tricky to roll out nationwide and at scale, connected to devices spread around your house. What makes it even more complex is that there is more than just the supplier and generators involved. The distribution network and transmission network also have serious constraints and that needs to be factored into calculating the schedule too. And of course they (whoever 'they' is) have to figure out hw to remotely turn power on and off only at a time that won't cause undue disruption to you, the customer.


  • #125
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Moneypoint can't be constrained. Just runs fully, normally, unless 1 of the 3 X 300Mw stacks is shut down. so it's always running at night and doesn't affect what cross is looking for. More than likely gas being replaced by peat or similar. Doubt if that is on the basis of price, maybe maintenance or repair.


  • #126
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    That's probably it. Gas is basically easy to turn off when alternatives are available (like a gas fire basically). You have to let coal ramp down. This will change somewhat when the i-SEM market is introduced.


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  • #127
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Overall problem also is Gas turbines are closed cycle here, so running full or off. Open cycle would be less efficient but variable. Very handy to blend with RE. Same as motors.


  • #128
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    There is plenty Open Cycle there too as I understand it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    When you see the SEM price go very high, that is partly because the more expensive OCGT is being called.

    You more or less have to have all this gas generation when you have loads of wind, even if you don't call it very often. Under current arrangements, OCGT operators are paid whether their plants run or not.


  • #129
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    That's probably it. Gas is basically easy to turn off when alternatives are available (like a gas fire basically). You have to let coal ramp down. This will change somewhat when the i-SEM market is introduced.
    Nothing to do with easier to turn off. It’s based on its bid in price to the SEMO. it’s cheaper than gas.


  • #130
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    There is plenty Open Cycle there too as I understand it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    When you see the SEM price go very high, that is partly because the more expensive OCGT is being called.

    You more or less have to have all this gas generation when you have loads of wind, even if you don't call it very often. Under current arrangements, OCGT operators are paid whether their plants run or not.
    The peaking plants were built on the basis that they would only be needed for a max of 500 hours per year. The rest of the time they get capacity payments


  • #131
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    https://amp.independent.ie/business/irish/airtricity-was-paid-32m-to-run-power-station-for-just-50-hours-30992601.html


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  • #132
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,656 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Water John wrote: »
    Overall problem also is Gas turbines are closed cycle here, so running full or off. Open cycle would be less efficient but variable. Very handy to blend with RE. Same as motors.
    Some of the peaking plants are OCGT.

    They’ve a better ramp rate.
    http://www.bordnamona.ie/company/our-businesses/powergen/gas-turbine-technology/


  • #133
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    ted1 wrote: »
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    That's probably it. Gas is basically easy to turn off when alternatives are available (like a gas fire basically). You have to let coal ramp down. This will change somewhat when the i-SEM market is introduced.
    Nothing to do with easier to turn off. It’s based on its bid in price to the SEMO. it’s cheaper than gas.

    You are right. Not easier to turn off.

    But it may be cheaper to let it run overnight than to start it up again in the morning. The scheduling algorithm does take startup costs into account.

    And as you say, coal is pretty cheap ...


  • #134
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Coal plant takes a couple of days to ramp up.


  • #135
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %|Total Coal|Total Gas
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35



    46% !!!

    Obviously its been a windy 4 weeks!

    I've added a few new columns for fuel mix, which is useful to see.


  • #136
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %|Total Coal|Total Gas
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33


    New leader... 50% this month. Thats impressive.

    Interesting that the grid is able to "let in" 75% renewable and keep the network stable for 2 months in a row. I think this is usually a problem for them but I guess its easier for them to factor it into their calculations when the amount of wind is high and sustained. Its during the calmer months where it is up and down a lot that they can't factor it in as much so it gets curtailed.... just surmising on that.

    Another interesting one is the gCO2 high of 500(4 and 5 Feb)! The day before and the day after it was under 300. I wonder what happened there? Wind generation was close to zero. Were there very high winds around then where they had to stop the turbines?


  • #137
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,579 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    KC
    historical wind etc here
    https://www.met.ie/climate/daily-data.asp
    C

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #138
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    They have been working at being able to take more wind onto the system over the years.

    The problem with wind is that wind speed flies all over the place. Looking at Knock Airport reports, it looks like there was a bit of a lull on the day you mention.

    There isn't any particular issue with the wind being sustained as far as I know. The issues are outlined in this paper. http://www.eirgrid.ie/site-files/library/EirGrid/Annual-Renewable-Constraint-and-Curtailment-Report-2016-v1.0.pdf . See pages 11 and 12. If there were more demand at night, it seems that there would be less constraint on wind generation at night.


  • #139
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    They have been working at being able to take more wind onto the system over the years.

    Thanks.

    Relevant piece is this...
    "… the limit was raised from 50% to 55% in October 2015 and a trial of 60% commenced in November 2016. The ultimate aim of the DS3 programme is to increase this limit towards 75%"


    So, 75% is exactly what they've got to!


  • #140
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %|Total Coal|Total Gas
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39


    The % wind wasn't too bad at 35% but it has been a rather dirty month for gCO2/kW presumably due to a significant increase in Coal use this month.

    I wonder why that happened? Even with the cold weather the overall demand doesnt appear to be up so there must be something else causing it.


  • #141
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %|Total Coal|Total Gas
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/3|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43


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  • #142
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    KCross wrote: »
    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind|Low|High|gCO2/kW|Low|High|Total Wind %|Total Coal|Total Gas
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/3|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43

    I assume that the average figure is the gm co2 / KWhr column? If so it is still a good figure approx 350 gm Co2 / Kwhr.

    A few years ago the average for 2014 ( I think) was 465 gm Co2 / Kwhr, so to get to 350 or so, is a reduction of about 100 gm of Co2 / Kwhr which is a good reduction in itself.

    On another point, I used to look at the smartgrid dashboard, but I don't bother anymore. Reason being, it appeared to be very unreliable, for example regularly it stated 4500 system load, wind generation at 1000 and renewable energy at 45%.

    1Gw is not 45% of 4.5 GW total demand. So it appeared to be a problem with the data processing. I did email them a few times, pointing out these anomalys, they got it running correctly, but then it all went pear shaped again. So I don't rely on it anymore. If you used data from another source then you are probably working with more accurate figures.

    Don't forget the interconnectors, if Ireland is importing power, the Co2 intensity will go down for Ireland, but it will go up for UK.

    But it is expected that onshore wind power generation will have a utilisation of about 30%, and that seems to be the case in your tables above.

    Offshore wind normally has a higher utilisation rate, 40%+or so.


  • #143
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ABC101 wrote: »
    I assume that the average figure is the gm co2 / KWhr column? If so it is still a good figure approx 350 gm Co2 / Kwhr.

    Columns 2 and 5 are averages for the time period 4-8am each night for the 28 days of that row.


    ABC101 wrote: »
    On another point, I used to look at the smartgrid dashboard, but I don't bother anymore. Reason being, it appeared to be very unreliable, for example regularly it stated 4500 system load, wind generation at 1000 and renewable energy at 45%.

    I am using their data but I'm calculating the percentages myself.
    So, I download the raw csv data for System Demand, Generation, Wind, CO2... stick it all in a spreadsheet and then pull out and average the data for the 4-8am slots.

    So, unless you are telling me that the raw MW figures are wrong/unreliable my figures should be good.

    ABC101 wrote: »
    Don't forget the interconnectors, if Ireland is importing power, the Co2 intensity will go down for Ireland, but it will go up for UK.

    But it is expected that onshore wind power generation will have a utilisation of about 30%, and that seems to be the case in your tables above.

    Offshore wind normally has a higher utilisation rate, 40%+or so.

    My CO2 figures are again, simply the averaged figures from their raw CO2 Intensity csv report.

    I assume their CO2 Intensity figures adjust accordingly for the interconnectors.


  • #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Forget about Co2, it's the actually pollution from the burning of fossil fuels we should be much more concerned about. The stuff that actually harms human health, causing lung and heart disease and even dementia. Co2 creates none of these and is a harmless gas essential for life on earth without it the planet can't sustain life, I'd be far more worried if Co2 levels were going down.

    The Oceans store much more Co2 than we could ever release or even think possible.

    Anyway, wind energy is good but I'd like to see less money from the taxpayer go to line the pockets of these wind farm owners or give something back, cheaper electricity costs, instead of dumping excess wind energy abroad we could use it to heat homes and get people off of oil and Gas.

    We also need more solar PV in the grid but the Grid is maxed out it can't take more than 65% this is why for now you will only ever see around 65% max green energy and even at that there could be substantial energy going through the inter-connector to the U.K that we should be able to use ourselves.

    It seems rather ridiculous that electricity costs are high enough to deter people from using it in storage heaters when we have plenty of excess wind energy at certain times or have to shut turbines off.


  • #145
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Forget about Co2, it's the actually pollution from the burning of fossil fuels we should be much more concerned about. The stuff that actually harms human health, causing lung and heart disease and even dementia. Co2 creates none of these and is a harmless gas essential for life on earth without it the planet can't sustain life, I'd be far more worried if Co2 levels were going down.

    The Oceans store much more Co2 than we could ever release or even think possible.

    Anyway, wind energy is good but I'd like to see less money from the taxpayer go to line the pockets of these wind farm owners or give something back, cheaper electricity costs, instead of dumping excess wind energy abroad we could use it to heat homes and get people off of oil and Gas.

    We also need more solar PV in the grid but the Grid is maxed out it can't take more than 65% this is why for now you will only ever see around 65% max green energy and even at that there could be substantial energy going through the inter-connector to the U.K that we should be able to use ourselves.

    It seems rather ridiculous that electricity costs are high enough to deter people from using it in storage heaters when we have plenty of excess wind energy at certain times or have to shut turbines off.

    When the interconnector with France is built, then perhaps we could raise the R.E. limit. It is going to be around 700 Mw, which is too small IMO.

    Ireland does have high energy costs, but it also has high costs in most other areas. Ireland has not failed to disappoint WRT rip off culture / or making things as expensive as possible to implement.


  • #146
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We also need more solar PV in the grid but the Grid is maxed out it can't take more than 65% this is why for now you will only ever see around 65% max green energy and even at that there could be substantial energy going through the inter-connector to the U.K that we should be able to use ourselves.

    Look at the table again, we regularly go to 75% wind now.


  • #147
    DM1983
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭DM1983


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Forget about Co2, it's the actually pollution from the burning of fossil fuels we should be much more concerned about. The stuff that actually harms human health, causing lung and heart disease and even dementia. Co2 creates none of these and is a harmless gas essential for life on earth without it the planet can't sustain life, I'd be far more worried if Co2 levels were going down.

    The Oceans store much more Co2 than we could ever release or even think possible.

    Anyway, wind energy is good but I'd like to see less money from the taxpayer go to line the pockets of these wind farm owners or give something back, cheaper electricity costs, instead of dumping excess wind energy abroad we could use it to heat homes and get people off of oil and Gas.

    We also need more solar PV in the grid but the Grid is maxed out it can't take more than 65% this is why for now you will only ever see around 65% max green energy and even at that there could be substantial energy going through the inter-connector to the U.K that we should be able to use ourselves.

    It seems rather ridiculous that electricity costs are high enough to deter people from using it in storage heaters when we have plenty of excess wind energy at certain times or have to shut turbines off.

    Ah Jesus. Climate change denial in the EV forum is a sad state of affairs.


  • #148
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal(24hr)|Total Gas(24hr)
    28/7-26/8|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68


  • #149
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,717 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    We've had very little wind, but interestingly from your data, the use of coal has gone down big time too. Have you any data on total (24h) consumption vs sources of production?

    My ads on adverts.ie

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  • #150
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I presume one or two of the Moneypoint stacks are out of commission.


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  • #151
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    We've had very little wind, but interestingly from your data, the use of coal has gone down big time too.

    With a corresponding increase in Gas (20%+ over the last 3 months)

    I am surmising that the shift from coal to gas has increased the cost to produce and is playing a big part in the recent price hikes by all the providers?
    unkel wrote: »
    Have you any data on total (24h) consumption vs sources of production?

    The last 3 columns represent total (i.e. 24hr)
    The first column represents the 4-8am period only. I'll update the table to make that clearer.

    Does that answer your question?


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