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FTTH installation equipment ONT / ODP / Wireless Routers etc...

  • 09-11-2018 2:57pm
    #1
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭


    seems I had got some peoples backs up in the boards group 'Eir rural FTTH thread' about discussing about the equipment OpenEir use for the ODP connection point and the ONT Box/device and the wireless routers ISP's supply when you sign up for a FTTH fibre package - was told to start my own thread so that is what I am doing. - didnt think the discussions of the FTTH equipment would warrant a seperate thread and thought it would sit better in the FTTH thread but apparently not - not sure it will get any views/posts but i will give it a try.

    so anyway this seems to be the current setup when an installer (whether that be OpenEir / KN / or whoever ) calls out to your house and installs the FTTH equipment it comprises of 3 pieces of hardware 1x fibre ODP point , 1x SC/APC port Gpon ONT (huawei unit I think) - the 3rd item (not in picture) is a wireless LAN router 802.11ac (different ISP's supply different wireless routers I think with at least 1 supplier offering the Fritz wireless router)
    n2yixd.jpg

    There has been reports that latest installs now feature a Gpon ONT that fits into a cradle now attached to the ODP point - so that makes things a bit neater now.

    now on the market is this all in one Generic SC/APC port HG8245 Gpon ONT made by huawei where it combines the ONT and the Wireless WLAN router in one neat unit which not only cuts down on messy cables and power supplies but is also easier on the eye , especially if the FTTH equipment in a place where people can see the FTTH hardware and you cannot box it in or hide it away or dont want people to trip up all the trailing wires or only have one socket available where you need to place the ONT and Wireless router. - it just plugs into the fibre patch wire that comes from the ODP socket into the HG8245 and then 1 adaptor plugs into the 13a wall socket. [/B]
    610wvJEBrFL._SL1000_.jpg

    61H-HtnC3OL._SL1000_.jpg
    And i was saying that its a shame that seeing as there is this one neat unit that can replace the job of 2 seperate pieces of devices (ONT & Wireless router) in one neat device that we cannot avail of the installers , installing one of these combined ONT Wireless Routers such as the huawei HG8245 or give the option maybe for the end user to swap out the supplied ONT and ISP supplied wireless router and replace it with this one Huawei HG8245 just like an end user can replace the ISP supplied router freely with another router if they have DSL broadband

    ... well it didnt go down too well with the folks on the FTTH saying "dont touch the ONT " (it was only a discussion I wasnt going to do it) and that you will loose Gpon signal / internet and then a costly engineer callout that customer would have to pay for that and that every supplied ONT's serial number is registered on the OLT at the exchange and that if you buy your own generic huawei HG8245 ONT or any other ONT and its not registered on the OLT the OLT will just kick your connection out. - May do, I dont know the technical in's and out of the ONT in the home handshaking with the OLT in the exchange.

    But what do you think - do you think this set up with an all in one huawei HG8245 ONT wireless router is better than the current set up for FTTH? - do you think in the future this setup is what they will eventually do a default when installing FTTH into the home/business - can you see any negatives about having an all in one unit like this rather than the devices kept seperate?
    Tagged:


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Not sure why all that is in bold.

    The core problem is that the ONT is open eir's or SIRO's and the router is the ISP's (or possibly the customer's). If you combine them, who "owns" the combined device? Whose problem is it if it fails? Whose BSS systems are responsible for monitoring it? Who pays for a replacement?


  • #3
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    I see some info about that HG8245 being used in other countries. Is there any reason it's generally only used with slower 100 mbit connections?
    Does it have the processing power to deal with a full 1 gbit wan connection?
    Also I've only head of it being used on a closed network, not on an open wholesale network like SIRO or openeir.
    I think that says a lot about the market that device is aimed at.


  • #4
    banie01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,933 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Not sure why all that is in bold.

    To emphasise that he's only curious and asking questions.
    He is the victim here, ;)


  • #5
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    banie01 wrote: »
    To emphasise that he's only curious and asking questions.
    He is the victim here, ;)

    are there any grown ups here so we can have a grown up conversation???? :)


  • #6
    Snaga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Snaga


    GPON is not like VDSL yet, the interop between hardware vendors is simply not fully standardised - largely because most OLT Hardware (The bit that aggregates all the FTTH connections together in the exchange) manufacturers like to sell ONT's too (After all most of the cost of these systems is actually the ONT+ its optical components).

    Now that's not to say interop doesn't happen, it does - but its not as far along as with DSL and often requires 'extra costs' for the operator.

    By using the small bridge ONT - the ONT completes the GPON 'semi-proprietary' piece, presenting standard ethernet to the residential gateway. Now, each retail service provider (or even home user) can use their own Ethernet Residential Gateway of choice and everyone is happy without the Interop headache (Except the OP ;) ).


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  • #7
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    .... who "owns" the combined device? Whose problem is it if it fails? ... Who pays for a replacement?

    the person who supplies it - so if its the customer/end user who buys it and connects it they own it - they sort it if it fails - they pay to replace it.

    just like if you had an ADSL package and you went out and bought a new ADSL wireless router from Currys/pcworld or amazon or somewhere

    If the ISP supplies it and you never own it , they own it and replace it if it fails


  • #8
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    The Huawei HG8245 is a device that's in fairly widespread use by china telecom to provide 100 mbit fibre connections to homes.
    It has a Hisilicon SD5113 CPU clocked at 400 mhz. It is unlikely that such a CPU could support NAT at speeds faster than this.

    That's all my limited research has found so far. What have you managed to dig up Andy?


  • #9
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    I see some info about that HG8245 being used in other countries. Is there any reason it's generally only used with slower 100 mbit connections?
    Does it have the processing power to deal with a full 1 gbit wan connection?
    Also I've only head of it being used on a closed network, not on an open wholesale network like SIRO or openeir.
    I think that says a lot about the market that device is aimed at.

    I was using that HG8245 as an example - there are other makes / models out there of combined ONT/Wireless modems.

    I havent read the full specs/info on the HG8245 - are you saying it cannot handle 1gbit connections?


  • #10
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    The Huawei HG8245 is a device that's in fairly widespread use by china telecom to provide 100 mbit fibre connections to homes.
    It has a Hisilicon SD5113 CPU clocked at 400 mhz. It is unlikely that such a CPU could support NAT at speeds faster than this.

    That's all my limited research has found so far. What have you managed to dig up Andy?

    nothing yet - I will have to have closer look at the info


  • #11
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    I was using that HG8245 as an example - there are other makes / models out there of combined ONT/Wireless modems.

    I havent read the full specs/info on the HG8245 - are you saying it cannot handle 1gbit connections?

    That's exactly what I'm saying. Can you provide me with more suitable models that I can look in to?


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  • #12
    Snaga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Snaga


    And what happens if there is a network upgrade on the Exchange hardware and only Manufacturer's X and Y Router/ONT continues to work, but manufacture Z's doesnt? (Provided by a retailer or a resident themselves?). (As remember, without standardisation - which is not there - this is a serious risk!).


  • #13
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    That's exactly what I'm saying. Can you provide me with more suitable models that I can look in to?

    yep maybe - after i have done some more investigating.

    what wireless router does eir supply for fibre to the home is it the F2000/ - hg659 ?

    how does this HG 8245 specs compare to the F2000 do you know?


  • #14
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Snaga wrote: »
    And what happens if there is a network upgrade on the Exchange hardware and only Manufacturer's X and Y Router/ONT continues to work, but manufacture Z's doesnt? (Provided by a retailer or a resident themselves?). (As remember, without standardisation - which is not there - this is a serious risk!).

    what be the chances of that happening? - and the generic likes of a Huawei make could not be upgraded by new firmware?


  • #15
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    the person who supplies it - so if its the customer/end user who buys it and connects it they own it - they sort it if it fails - they pay to replace it.
    All of which misses the fundamental point, which is that the ONT is part of the wholesaler's network.
    just like if you had an ADSL package and you went out and bought a new ADSL wireless router from Currys/pcworld or amazon or somewhere
    No, not just like that, because the DSL modem isn't part of the wholesaler's network.

    You can't blithely compare the two. There's no ONT equivalent in DSL - the splitter/master socket isn't an active component and doesn't require monitoring.

    It's easy to come up with what seem like clever solutions when you are only looking at one aspect of the problem. There are good technical and regulatory reasons for having a clear demarcation between the wholesaler's network and the ISP's/customer's CPE. Literally the only argument in favour of a combined ONT/CPE is saving one power outlet.

    I understand your motivations in wanting it, but your motivations don't override the technical and regulatory reasons why you shouldn't have it.


  • #16
    Snaga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Snaga


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    what be the chances of that happening? - and the generic likes of a Huawei make could not be upgraded by new firmware?



    A not insignificant chance I would say - what makes you think the chances are low? (Given you now know they are not standardised interfaces like DSL or Ethernet).

    What benefit is it to Hardware vendor A to provide new firmware so another vendors ONT will work?
    How easy is it (in a non standardised environment) for vendor Z to 'fix' an interop issue caused by a vendorA (A competitor)? (at short notice)


  • #17
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...Literally the only argument in favour of a combined ONT/CPE is saving one power outlet.....

    its not thogh its less cables and less of a mess. - what do you think about a multifunction printer/scanner/fax/copier all in one for the home market? - do you think that was a good idea to have all in one unit that does all the jobs in one unit where it used to take 3 or more different devices to d the same job on your desk?


  • #18
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    yep maybe - after i have done some more investigating.

    what wireless router does eir supply for fibre to the home is it the F2000/ - hg659 ?

    how does this HG 8245 specs compare to the F2000 do you know?

    Yes the f2000 is a re-branded HG8245 and uses a dual-core Broadcom BCM63168 400 mhz.
    Nothing special about that chip but it's much newer and can do 1 gbit NAT without maxing out.

    This is another argument in favour of not having the ONT and router combined as it makes upgrading to new standards(WIFI exc..) so much easier.
    Why would openeir want to spend money on lengthy tests every time an ISP needs to use a more modern router?


  • #19
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Snaga wrote: »
    A not insignificant chance I would say - what makes you think the chances are low? (Given you now know they are not standardised interfaces like DSL or Ethernet).

    What benefit is it to Hardware vendor A to provide new firmware so another vendors ONT will work?
    How easy is it (in a non standardised environment) for vendor Z to 'fix' an interop issue caused by a vendorA (A competitor)? (at short notice)

    thats the technical part where I am lost , I must admit. you would be more knowlegable on that side I suppose - but what protocols would we be talking. If say it was a generic HG8245 ONT/Router say - would/could eir update the protocol that much that particular ONT/Router say for example, could not use the new protocol ?


  • #20
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Also do you think their is a reason the combo ont/router is only used in closed networks so far and not open wholesale networks?


  • #21
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    Yes the f2000 is a re-branded HG8245 and uses a dual-core Broadcom BCM63168 400 mhz.
    Nothing special about that chip but it's much newer and can do 1 gbit NAT without maxing out.

    This is another argument in favour of not having the ONT and router combined as it makes upgrading to new standards(WIFI exc..) so much easier.
    Why would openeir want to spend money on lengthy tests every time an ISP needs to use a more modern router?

    OK should there be any issues of an end user taking it upon themselves and changing the eir supplied ONT and ISP supplied router with a unit such as the HG8245 for an example on the understanding that the ISP cannot offer support on the router because its not what they supplied ?


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  • #22
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    Also do you think their is a reason the combo ont/router is only used in closed networks so far and not open wholesale networks?

    nope - what is the reason?


  • #23
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    Yes the f2000 is a re-branded HG8245 ...

    is it , are you sure? - its a re-branded HG659 router is it not? - the HG8245 has the built in Gpon ONT


  • #24
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    is it , are you sure? - its a re-branded HG659 router is it not? - the HG8245 has the built in Gpon ONT

    Yes my mistake it's the HG659 but the info on the much faster broadcom CPU is correct.


  • #25
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    nope - what is the reason?

    On the closed network there is only one provider with one router to test.

    On an open network there will be many different ISP using different routers depending on the service they want to provide.
    Leaving control of the ONT to the owners of the network and control of the router to the ISP allows for new ISPs to join with minimal testing. The same goes for ISPs wanting to upgrade to a new router. Nether the network owner or ISP want to incur the cost of constant testing of new ONTs.
    The profit margins on the openeir network are already so low that sky and Vodafone were very reluctant to join it. They wont be pushing for changes that would make it even more expensive.


  • #26
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    OK should there be any issues of an end user taking it upon themselves and changing the eir supplied ONT and ISP supplied router with a unit such as the HG8245 for an example on the understanding that the ISP cannot offer support on the router because its not what they supplied ?

    As you well know using an out of spec ONT can result in up to 32 connections going down. What incentive is there for the network provider to allow a user to do this?


  • #27
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Very simply for ya Andy:

    Adsl, VDSL - 1 cable per 1 customer
    GPON, DOCSIS - 1 cable per 20-30 customers

    When the cable is shared you have to control it. This has been explained to you several times.


    Buy your own gear, Gowan. The OLT will probably ignore it.


  • #28
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    In other countries I've seen(videos on YouTube) ONT serial + password used.
    I've no idea if Eir does the same but if it is you can find the serial on the ONT so that can be spoofed.
    Not a hope in hell of openeir giving you that password though.


  • #29
    KildareP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    OK should there be any issues of an end user taking it upon themselves and changing the eir supplied ONT and ISP supplied router with a unit such as the HG8245 for an example on the understanding that the ISP cannot offer support on the router because its not what they supplied ?

    Andy, you seem to have a habit of going into forums, including Electrical, Plumbing, Home Security, and then arguing pedantics against the greater advice of the experienced folks within :)

    If you interfere with the ONT you are interfering with the Open Eir network.

    Expect to be spliced out and permanently refused service to your address if you cause any upstream interference within the network. That's the long and short of it.

    (Not to mention you can't just unplug and replug fibre patch cords at will, they should be cleaned each time using a fibre optic cleaner.)


  • #30
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    At this stage I feel like we should all be encouraging him to use his own ONT. I'd feel bad for his neighbours but the outcome could be amusing.


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  • #31
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    As you well know using an out of spec ONT can result in up to 32 connections going down. What incentive is there for the network provider to allow a user to do this?

    thats the thing, I dont well know that an ONT can result in 32 connections going down and why it would do that, no-one has explained how it can do this. I suppose I will have to educate myself on the internet or watch a youtube vid or something if no-one is going to explain to me how a ONT at one persons premises can take out 32 other users fibre connection. I would have imagined there was some safety thing built into the syatem to stop this kind of thing happening and only isolate the problem to the person with the rogue ONT and not affect others ... doesnt it?


  • #32
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    It's been a month Andy and you even thanked my post

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108280779&postcount=3919

    No one here can explain it better than the mountains of information available online.

    Do you have access to google with your current ISP?

    The thing is your questions are ok the first time you ask them but fith,sixth,seventh........this is where people get annoyed.


  • #33
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    KildareP wrote: »
    Andy, you seem to have a habit of going into forums, including Electrical, Plumbing, Home Security, and then arguing pedantics against the greater advice of the experienced folks within :)

    ...

    ooh - stalker alert!! :D

    or have u just a good memory? :)


  • #34
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    It's been a month Andy and you even thanked my post

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108280779&postcount=3919

    No one here can explain it better than the mountains of information available online.

    Do you have access to google with your current ISP?

    The thing is your questions are ok the first time you ask them but fith,sixth,seventh........this is where people get annoyed.

    so sorry - I never did read up on rogue ONT's have to admit - yes I do have access to google thanks very much :) (albeit slow today - must be the windy weather)

    hmm - people getting annoyed because i ask a question more than once or being repetitive ... is that a fault of me or people being touchy / easily upset? :)


  • #35
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    tuxy wrote: »
    At this stage I feel like we should all be encouraging him to use his own ONT. I'd feel bad for his neighbours but the outcome could be amusing.

    wasnt it you or someone else just said it wont work? - that it just wont register with the OLT and I would get no fibre / LOS ? - someone did

    forgive me but what a silly system that one premises could have a fault or a faulty ONT and could affect neighbours , not isolate the problem to just the one user with the fault at their premises


  • #36
    MBSnr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    hmm - people getting annoyed because i ask a question more than once or being repetitive ... is that a fault of me or people being touchy / easily upset? :)

    The fact that numerous people have told you, repeatedly over multiple posts and threads, should tell you that....


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  • #37
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »

    hmm - people getting annoyed because i ask a question more than once or being repetitive ... is that a fault of me or people being touchy / easily upset? :)

    When someone goes to the trouble of explaining something to you it is rude to continue to keep asking the same question especially when you display no desire to learn anything from that answer.
    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    wasnt it you or someone else just said it wont work? - that it just wont register with the OLT and I would get no fibre / LOS ? - someone did

    forgive me but what a silly system that one premises could have a fault or a faulty ONT and could affect neighbours , not isolate the problem to just the one user with the fault at their premises

    How's your research into how GPON works coming along?


  • #38
    BArra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭BArra


    Andy, maybe it might be a good idea to just sit back for a while and chill out rather than get more people coming down on top of you

    You have a FTTH connection coming so happy days for you, lots of others who really want it and have no chance of getting it


  • #39
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    MBSnr wrote: »
    The fact that numerous people have told you, repeatedly over multiple posts and threads, should tell you that....

    that they are getting annoyed because they havent got patience?


  • #40
    Snaga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Snaga


    No. People invest time and energy into responding to your questions.

    Ignoring answers and asking questions repeatedly shows a lack of respect for other peoples time and effort, which annoys people as they now feel duped, instead of feeling helpful and good about themselves for helping someone genuinely interested in learning.

    Take the next step and educate yourself further using the tools you have and come back with educated responses that build on the answers you have already received.


  • #41
    Marlow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    what be the chances of that happening? - and the generic likes of a Huawei make could not be upgraded by new firmware?

    Yes. Even when both devices are from the same vendor, they can be incompatible to each other. Even 2 devices of the same model, just with different firmwares. That is a very likely scenario.
    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    the person who supplies it - so if its the customer

    Here is your problem though:

    The ONT is owned by OpenEIR. They supply it, fit it and service it. However, they will not deal with the public and you can not directly contact them for support.

    OpenEIR will not even give the provider/ISP access to the ONT. The ISP gets a very limited tool to query the status of the ONT through OpenEIRs systems. No configuration, no tampering, nothing.

    The router is either supplied by the ISP (on loan) or sold to you. In some cases, you can use your own. If you own it, it falls under normal vendor warranty.

    So, if you were to get a combined unit, you would not be able to get support or service for it, the way both OpenEIR and SIRO are conducting their business (as a wholesale network).

    And the ISP can't give you support for the device, because they don't have access to that end of the network.

    The rogue ONT issue has been explained to you by tuxy, myself and others. PON/GPON/X-PON/10G-PON etc are only compatible in theory.

    There is no cross-over standard. You can not mix and match ONTs with OLTs.

    A network operator will spend engineering time, certify the equipment in test and trials, that they want to use and then only replace a piece of equipment, when a problem comes about or when a upgraded/improved unit comes about, that is certified to operate the same way and with the same head-end.

    Engineering time is one of the most costly parts of running such a network. It may be all fine to dabble with stuff in your own time, but not when it comes to a commercial entity, that has to make returns of their investment.

    And if OpenEIR still was a state owned incumbent, then you could be brought to court for tampering with their telecoms infrastructure. You probably can anyway, because you're interfering with other customers, once you tamper with the ONT.

    It's actually up to 128 customers under most GPON implementations, but OpenEIRs rollout has been limited to 32 drops per cluster. And the engineering cost to troubleshoot and rectify such a problem, once you've tampered with the cluster, is even more costly (to OpenEIR).

    /M


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  • #42
    babi-hrse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭babi-hrse


    All I can share but it shows that this network is very much restricted in what you can plug into it.
    I can splice a fibre cable on a position assigned to a customer I cannot just stick in any dp and expect the service to work (jobs have been failed for wrong dp)
    When I bring the fibre and fit cradle and ont the signal is checked usually hovers about -13db
    I plug this in and it does not actually get access to the network even though plugged in. I have to go through openers portal and input the Mac address of the ont in use for them to activate it only then does it lock on and get network access.
    If you supply an ont with modem the installer will not be able to get the network to accept it and as such will never result in a lock.


  • #43
    Marlow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    babi-hrse wrote: »
    I can splice a fibre cable on a position assigned to a customer I cannot just stick in any dp and expect the service to work (jobs have been failed for wrong dp)

    The DP for the Eircode/Premise is pre-assigned in OpenEIRs prequalification list. No negotiating that, unless a ticket is opened.

    The port, that you as an installer have to use is assigned, when the connection is ordered. Long before the job goes out to the installer. No negotiating that.
    babi-hrse wrote: »
    I have to go through openers portal and input the Mac address of the ont in use for them to activate it only then does it lock on and get network access.
    If you supply an ont with modem the installer will not be able to get the network to accept it and as such will never result in a lock.

    The ONTs that you have in the van have been cataloged with mac-address, serial-number and ONT-password when OpenEIR received the stock. The ONTs that then have been given to you, have been assigned to you as an installer. You can not grab an ONT from another installer without having his credentials and use that on an install.

    And well, if you did that, he would get paid and not you :p

    That's how much has gone into ensuring, that nobody can enter rogue devices into the network. And it has been done for very good and apparent reasons.

    /M


  • #44
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Snaga wrote: »
    No. People invest time and energy into responding to your questions.

    please say I havent just read that !! - this is Boards where people have the time to sit down on the internet and discuss things among other things - i didnt realise people were specifically investing time and energy with me :D (at least you didnt say money as well)

    I would have thought people answer me to be helpful and nothing more or just joining in with a relaxed conversation - jaysus it seems its bigger than that!


  • #45
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Marlow wrote: »
    Yes. Even when both devices are from the same vendor, they can be incompatible to each other. Even 2 devices of the same model, just with different firmwares. That is a very likely scenario.



    Here is your problem though:

    The ONT is owned by OpenEIR. They supply it, fit it and service it. However, they will not deal with the public and you can not directly contact them for support.

    OpenEIR will not even give the provider/ISP access to the ONT. The ISP gets a very limited tool to query the status of the ONT through OpenEIRs systems. No configuration, no tampering, nothing.

    The router is either supplied by the ISP (on loan) or sold to you. In some cases, you can use your own. If you own it, it falls under normal vendor warranty.

    So, if you were to get a combined unit, you would not be able to get support or service for it, the way both OpenEIR and SIRO are conducting their business (as a wholesale network).

    And the ISP can't give you support for the device, because they don't have access to that end of the network.

    The rogue ONT issue has been explained to you by tuxy, myself and others. PON/GPON/X-PON/10G-PON etc are only compatible in theory.

    There is no cross-over standard. You can not mix and match ONTs with OLTs.

    A network operator will spend engineering time, certify the equipment in test and trials, that they want to use and then only replace a piece of equipment, when a problem comes about or when a upgraded/improved unit comes about, that is certified to operate the same way and with the same head-end.

    Engineering time is one of the most costly parts of running such a network. It may be all fine to dabble with stuff in your own time, but not when it comes to a commercial entity, that has to make returns of their investment.

    And if OpenEIR still was a state owned incumbent, then you could be brought to court for tampering with their telecoms infrastructure. You probably can anyway, because you're interfering with other customers, once you tamper with the ONT.

    It's actually up to 128 customers under most GPON implementations, but OpenEIRs rollout has been limited to 32 drops per cluster. And the engineering cost to troubleshoot and rectify such a problem, once you've tampered with the cluster, is even more costly (to OpenEIR).

    /M

    thanks - i know , repeating it all to me again dont necessarily make it any clearer .

    would a Gpon generic combined ONT/Wireless rougter made by a company such as Huawei (a genuine on , not a china clone/copy) with the right connector be classed as a rogue router though ? - thats not likely to take 32 peoples broadband out is it? (maybe you cannot hypothetically answer that because you cannot see into the future)


  • #46
    Marlow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    would a Gpon generic combined ONT/Wireless rougter made by a company such as Huawei (a genuine on , not a china clone/copy) with the right connector be classed as a rogue router though ? - thats not likely to take 32 peoples broadband out is it? (maybe you cannot hypothetically answer that because you cannot see into the future)

    Yes it would. As I said at the very start of that post: even two devices of the same manufacturer and same model can be incompatible to each other ...

    It can be as simple as 2 different firmware versions.

    And with a lot of carriers/wholesale networks/providers .. the firmware often gets customized to their own specific need.

    So now you take a router with a generic firmware, that doesn't have the extra features and throw it into a network that requires the extra features .... and you're buggered.

    And on top of that, you sending incompatible packets on the stream buggers everyone else on the same cluster.

    I can tell you already now .. and I've tested this: even though OpenEIR and SIRO are using the same platform, some more special router-configurations have to be set up completely different for the two to make them work on each individual platform. Even though it's the same type ONT and the same type OLT.

    That's on the copper side of the ONT. Nevermind the optical side of the ONT.

    /M


  • #47
    Marlow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Oh .. and that's the next culprit to your theory:

    - the customisation of the firmware of OLT and ONT is costly
    - the more devices the network wants it done to, the more it costs

    That's why every wholesale network sticks with a VERY limited amount of devices.

    /M


  • #48
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    the funny thing in this thread that I am sure some on here have been reading my posts on the rural FTTH thread , have told me they were fed up reading about routers and that it was hijacking/swamping the thread .. told me to start my own thread about ONT's and routers which I have .... and then crossed over from the FTTH rural thread and started joining in on this thread

    and most of the time just to tell me that its all been explained to me before and berate me for not taking peoples advice and acting on it


  • #49
    Marlow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    the funny thing in this thread that I am sure some on here have been reading my posts on the rural FTTH thread , have told me they were fed up reading about routers and that it was hijacking/swamping the thread .. told me to start my own thread about ONT's and routers which I have .... and then crossed over from the FTTH rural thread and started joining in on this thread

    and most of the time just to tell me that its all been explained to me before and berate me for not taking peoples advice and acting on it

    Either you want to offend people or you want these things explained to you.

    The people that have explained this to you before are now taking the time to explain it to you more thorough here.

    The benefit is, that the other novices don't have to go through all your posts in the other thread, that are no benefit to them, because they're all theoretical and of no practical use ... as you're trying to achieve, what isn't commercially viable.

    Post like that one are only intended to stirr the ****.

    The reason you have been asked to start a seperate thread is so that the other one doesn't get dragged off topic on a constant basis. Simply, because you seem to ask the same questions or make the same suggestions over and over and over again. Ignoring the advice and information you've been given.

    And no .. i'm not going to butter my posts up. Facts.

    /M


  • #50
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Marlow wrote: »
    Either you want to offend people or you want these things explained to you.

    ... Ignoring the advice and information you've been given.



    /M

    ah please - you might think you have me sussed out, but I really am not trying to offend people honestly - I am trying to get some un-biased views , to get my head around it more why a different ONT wouldnt work (I am getting there, almost understanding how an ONT works on the infrastrcture and how it can affect other users) and getting (or trying to get) what other people think about a combined ONT and wireless router in one as opposed to the way they are doing it at the moment (not necessarily from the experts on here but of the joe public / end user - even though I dont think any joe public has answered in this thread at the moment, i might be wrong)

    oh and please do not tell me I am ignoring the advice and information I really am taking it all on board and soaking it in even if you think I am not.


  • #51
    Marlow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    How an ONT, and OLT for that sake, works, makes no difference to you. Unless you want to build your own GPON network.

    When the likes of OpenEIR or SIRO purchase their gear, it gets ordered customized to their specification. It is NOT standard equipment, even though the casing may seem the same.

    And because it's a shared medium network between a bunch of users, quality standards have to be kept. At an extremely high level. So you have to take, what you're being provided with. End of story.

    Having a combined router with ONT fibre interface build in, is both a good idea and a bad idea.

    It's a great idea, because you don't have to deal with multiple devices (and power supplies).

    It's an inheritent bad idea, because you have to replace a very expensive unit every time you do an upgrade of the infrastructure. The simple ONT is a cheap enough device and it doesn't mean you have to replace the remainder .. unless it's not up to scratch after the upgrade.

    You said, you repair PCs. How fast did PCs evolve in the 90s ? How much faster are PCs evolving today ? How fast is a high end graphics card out of date ?

    Take an Apple computer or laptop ... if it's out of date, you've got to scrap the whole lot.

    You can not just go and replace the motherboard, or the graphics card, or the wifi card, or the network card etc.

    It's the whole hog or nothing.

    You're trying to push the Apple approach on a FTTH fibre network, just because you don't want an extra device or cable.

    The modular approach allows for freedom of choice and easy upgrades of components.

    /M


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