The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

Johner · 10-07-2016 10:03am

HarshOstrich wrote: »

Has nathaniel had any runners yet
What a horse he was

Had his first winner yesterday at Ascot.

tryfix · 15-07-2016 12:21pm

Frankel's first Irish runner goes in the first at the Curragh tomorrow and he's a biggie. He's the Ger Lyons trained Lightening Fast, his dam is the 6f Gp 1 2yo winner Lightening Pearl.

O'Brien's Taj Mahal a full brother to Gleneagles is still in the same race and he'd a very gentle introduction when finishing down the field as favourite in a maiden. He should be ready to win if he turns up.

Peintre Celebre · 15-07-2016 1:44pm

top story in the RP app is Frankel to have his first runner in Ireland tomorrow. Their brown nosing of him is beyond irritating

Peintre Celebre · 15-07-2016 1:44pm

Is there a Classic being run tomorrow no

tryfix · 16-07-2016 2:53pm

tryfix wrote: »

Frankel's first Irish runner goes in the first at the Curragh tomorrow and he's a biggie. He's the Ger Lyons trained Lightening Fast, his dam is the 6f Gp 1 2yo winner Lightening Pearl.

O'Brien's Taj Mahal a full brother to Gleneagles is still in the same race and he'd a very gentle introduction when finishing down the field as favourite in a maiden. He should be ready to win if he turns up.

That Lightening Fast is a beautiful mover who doesn't look remotely like his sire Frankel. Taj Mahal is a good looking powerfully built animal, hope they both live up to their potential today and we get another future classic winner out of this race again.

tryfix · 16-07-2016 3:09pm

tryfix wrote: »

That Lightening Fast is a beautiful mover who doesn't look remotely like his sire Frankel. Taj Mahal is a good looking powerfully built animal, hope they both live up to their potential today and we get another future classic winner out of this race again.

Ooops, that didn't go to plan. Joseph's Arcada boosting further the form of that Curragh maiden won by Alexios Kommenos on Irish Derby Day. It looks to be a good vein of quality around that form. The Frankel's run can be written off but wtf? Taj Mahal is an expensive yoke to be following but he might be a stuffy kind of horse who can keep slowly progressing.

The horse to take from today is the close finishing 2nd Capri who didn't exactly look ready to win in the paddock.

tryfix · 23-07-2016 2:51pm

He's done it, that Ascot Gp3 winner Fair Eva is a star 2 yo and a really beautiful physical specimen to boot.

Peintre Celebre · 23-07-2016 5:48pm

People are getting very worked up by Fair Eva and it is easy to be sucked in when you see a performance like that. That said if you take a step back and look at it logically you can probably notch it down a bit

Both the first and second were beaten today by similar distances than they were by Brave Anna at Royal Ascot, a daughter of War Front winning on good to soft. It's fair to assume she will probably be better on quicker going. How went off second favourite today, an above average filly but she is now a five race maiden, and four of her starts were in maidens in Ireland. Not to mention the third favourite was withdrawn at the start. Plenty of superlatives being thrown around at the minute but I wouldn't be too quick to call her a star yet

tryfix · 23-07-2016 9:22pm

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

People are getting very worked up by Fair Eva and it is easy to be sucked in when you see a performance like that. That said if you take a step back and look at it logically you can probably notch it down a bit

Both the first and second were beaten today by similar distances than they were by Brave Anna at Royal Ascot, a daughter of War Front winning on good to soft. It's fair to assume she will probably be better on quicker going. How went off second favourite today, an above average filly but she is now a five race maiden, and four of her starts were in maidens in Ireland. Not to mention the third favourite was withdrawn at the start. Plenty of superlatives being thrown around at the minute but I wouldn't be too quick to call her a star yet

You're being a bit selective, the 2nd and 3rd may not have been suited by the Soft Ground at Royal Ascot and the 2nd stepped from that Gp 3 Ascot race to finish 3/4l 2nd in the Gp2 Cherry Hinton Stakes. Also How was beaten 7 3/4l today despite finishing within 2 1/2l of Take a Deep Breath who ran the Top O'Brien filly Promise To Be True to 1 1/4l in a Gp3 at Leopardstown.

What was impressive about Fair Eva today was her acceleration at the end of the race and that they knew how good she was going to be ( very short price ) and she looked very impressive in the paddock.

She may be a precocious sort but Charlton the trainer doesn't think so.

STB. · 27-07-2016 7:58pm

Senator [Frankel - Red Bloom] just won on his debut in a 9 horse 6f maiden at Leicester for Richard Fahey in the Cheveley Park colours. Well backed.

STB. · 13-08-2016 2:42pm

Aljezeera

[Frankel - Dynaforce (Dynaformer)]

just won on debut at 10/11f for Luca Cummani in the 2.35 @ Doncaster. Looks smart.

Ben Gadot · 13-08-2016 2:46pm

Won easily but most of his progeny haven't kicked on from initial promise. There's two as things stand that look like they have promise.

Frankuus ran just before the debutante there and was never in it.

Lt Dan · 13-08-2016 8:47pm

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Won easily but most of his progeny haven't kicked on from initial promise. There's two as things stand that look like they have promise.

Frankuus ran just before the debutante there and was never in it.

Any think it was a Mark Johnson thing rather than the horse ?

Looks bad ,Francus just faded badly to two horses that have ran less races

Looking good for Juddmonte's former horse Famous Name. Not many of his has ran and he already has a listed winner in the wonderfully named Escobar

Harry Angstrom · 13-08-2016 11:35pm

Lt Dan wrote: »

Any think it was a Mark Johnson thing rather than the horse ?

Looks bad ,Francus just faded badly to two horses that have ran less races

Looking good for Juddmonte's former horse Famous Name. Not many of his has ran and he already has a listed winner in the wonderfully named Escobar

I agree that it would have more to do with the Mark Johnston factor than anything else. I've never bought into the media fawning over him. His horses blow hot and cold, and he has a habit of over-racing them.

With Fair Eva already 4/1 fav for next year's 1,000 Guineas and Frankel having a high first time out win/run ratio for his 2yo's so far, I don't think Juddmonte will be worrying too much just yet.

Lt Dan · 14-08-2016 10:49pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

I agree that it would have more to do with the Mark Johnston factor than anything else. I've never bought into the media fawning over him. His horses blow hot and cold, and he has a habit of over-racing them.

With Fair Eva already 4/1 fav for next year's 1,000 Guineas and Frankel having a high first time out win/run ratio for his 2yo's so far, I don't think Juddmonte will be worrying too much just yet.

So long as Juddmonte keep the best of them they will be grand,at least they have some good fillies in their group

No time for Johnson. Keeping Trying.Bla. Look at what Es Que Love did when he went to Cox! Boom won a Group race beating Toormore at Goodwood. Johnson had him running every two weeks in the summer of 2013 ,some near misses. Was flogged. Love to know how a game horse like Fire Fighting would be if allowed to develop and not running on big weights every two weeks

Lt Dan · 14-08-2016 10:53pm

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

I agree that it would have more to do with the Mark Johnston factor than anything else. I've never bought into the media fawning over him. His horses blow hot and cold, and he has a habit of over-racing them.

With Fair Eva already 4/1 fav for next year's 1,000 Guineas and Frankel having a high first time out win/run ratio for his 2yo's so far, I don't think Juddmonte will be worrying too much just yet.

Hmm. Hope Charlton does not chicken out like he did with Time Test at Ascot-ground was not that bad

klairondavis · 18-08-2016 2:40pm

1-3 in the Lowther. Fair Eva third behind Queen Kindly.

tryfix · 18-08-2016 2:56pm

klairondavis wrote: »

1-3 in the Lowther. Fair Eva third behind Queen Kindly.

A very interesting race, if you took out the first and second then Fair Eva would have put in a star performance in beating her field 4l. So she probably ran her race, there's a question about her being better over further but the O'Brien's filly with her 3lb penalty today and being out of a Galileo mare is likely to be better than Fair Eva over a mile and there's a strong possibility that Roly Poly isn't the best 1,000 guineas prospect in the O'Brien yard.

Not sure about the winner, her form so far is that of a sprinter and she was getting 3lb off Roly Poly today.

tryfix · 18-08-2016 3:14pm

Extraordinary breeding breaking out in the winner Queen Kindly. She's now a winner of the Lowther who's dam Lady Of The Desert also won the Lowther and she in turn is a daughter of the flying 2yo filly Queens Logic who also won the Lowther. That's got to be some kind of a record.

Also Queen's Logic is a half sister to Arc winner Dylan Thomas and 1,000 Guineas winner Homecoming Queen.

Ben Gadot · 18-08-2016 4:54pm

Couldn't really understand the gulf in odds myself. Did it come down to the colours the jockeys were wearing?

I know a bloke who loves doing daft bets on favourites like that because they're "gimmes", but even he turned up his nose at those odds

BumperD · 23-08-2016 11:29am

Good article pg 4 today's racing post on the next few due to hit the track Swiss Storm , Rainbow Legacy, eminent, tsavo, Harba

tryfix · 24-08-2016 1:35am

BumperD wrote: »

Good article pg 4 today's racing post on the next few due to hit the track Swiss Storm , Rainbow Legacy, eminent, tsavo, Harba

It'll be good to see some of the less precious ones hitting the track. Bar that Aljezeera who looks like a middle distance filly, they've been sharp types that he's had so far, mainly 6f winners and not the types to progress as 3yo's. The word Precocious strikes me as very apt for what he's sired so far.

It'll be very interesting to see how O'Brien's Frankel colt San Remo progresses under the start them easy and build them up training regime of Ballydoyle as compared to the ready first time bunch of Frankel's in England that we saw so much of so far.

Having said that San Remo's debut performance was woeful even by Ballydoyle's debut standards and he ran out of puff extremely quickly that day, showing none of the staying on in their debut promise that marks out many of O'Brien's future stars.

At this stage the Lowther winner out of a Lowther winner is the only top class runner Frankel has and many first season sires throw more than a few of those group class fast 2yos in their first crops.

tryfix · 28-08-2016 10:41pm

Lightening Fast today was another failure by a Frankel to step up on a promising previous run. The form of Aljezeera's win is also beginning to look quite ordinary.

tryfix · 30-08-2016 7:44pm

Seven Heavens won his two horse race in fine style today and it was a respectable time. The combination of Gosden, Juddmonte ownership and a racing style very like his sire make him the nicest Frankel colt that I've seen yet.

Johner · 30-08-2016 9:50pm

tryfix wrote: »

Seven Heavens won his two horse race in fine style today and it was a respectable time. The combination of Gosden, Juddmonte ownership and a racing style very like his sire make him the nicest Frankel colt that I've seen yet.

I was watching the race thinking there was no way he was going to be impressive with the way he was pulling so hard. Looks a lovely prospect.

tryfix · 31-08-2016 12:19am

Johner wrote: »

I was watching the race thinking there was no way he was going to be impressive with the way he was pulling so hard. Looks a lovely prospect.

I was thinking Kingman when I saw him. He's got speed, has a miler brother by Cape Cross and a 10f brother by Dalakhani. He could develop into a proper Guineas horse under Gosden's tutelage.

Gavin "shels" · 01-09-2016 1:12am

Swiss Storm makes his debut in the 2.30 Haydock, big things expected.

Gregk961 · 01-09-2016 12:29pm

Gavin "shels" wrote: »

Swiss Storm makes his debut in the 2.30 Haydock, big things expected.

Looks like a handy bit of placement again. If he is even above average and assuming ready to race he should handle most of that field. That said hes probably half the price he would be if not for the Frankel factor so I'll be laying if he gets a bit shorter.

D9Male · 01-09-2016 8:34pm

Well backed, well beaten.

BumperD · 17-09-2016 1:07pm

Gavin shels wrote: »

Swiss Storm makes his debut in the 2.30 Haydock, big things expected.

He's back to make amends today in 1.10 Newbury.

BumperD · 17-09-2016 1:17pm

Bolts up. Still a little green then powered away. Impressive.

diomed · 17-09-2016 1:35pm

The Racing Post has nine Frankel runners to date.
I've noticed Frankel runners competing against each other.
Are they trying to get wins by packing races with Frankel runners?

York 18/08/16 Lowther Stakes (Group 2, 8 runners): Queen Kindly 1st; Fair Eva 3rd.
Haydock 03/09/16 32Red Casino Stakes (Listed, 6 runners): Frankuus 1st; Cunco 3rd

BumperD · 17-09-2016 1:37pm

Interesting. Given the entries are unrestricted, perhaps a coincidence?

diomed · 17-09-2016 2:44pm

This is a fuller list of Frankel V Frankel, not necessarily winning
I've included another race where a Frankel won a two horse race.

Ascot 18/06/16 Chesham Stakes, Listed: 13 runners: Cunco 3rd; Frankuus 5th
Goodwood 30/08/16 Conditions Stakes: 2 runners: Seventh Heavens 1st 1/10 fav
Haydock 03/09/16 Casino Stakes, Listed: 6 runners: Franhuus 1st; Cunco 3rd
Doncaster 09/09/16 Listed, 7 runners: Majoris 4th; Senator 7th
Newbury 17/09/16 Maiden Stakes, 11 runners: Swiss Storm 1st; Alfawaris 3rd

17-09-2016 3:08pm

diomed wrote: »

The Racing Post has nine Frankel runners to date.
I've noticed Frankel runners competing against each other.
Are they trying to get wins by packing races with Frankel runners?

Nine Frankel runners to date? You might want to check that.

Who on earth are 'they' in this context?

diomed · 17-09-2016 3:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nine Frankel runners to date? You might want to check that.
Who on earth are 'they' in this context?

You are correct: 9 winners from 15 runners
"They" are our lizard overlords. They may not be on earth.

BumperD · 17-09-2016 3:34pm

:pac:

Lt Dan · 22-09-2016 2:51pm

Another one wins his maiden at Newmarket. Eminent. The mother is an former Coolmore runner

diomed · 23-09-2016 1:08pm

pedigreequery.com lists another Frankel winner not shown on racingpost.com

Soul Stirring won 7 million yen which is €62,143 at today's exchange rate, making her the second highest earner of the Frankel offspring.
It gives her weight as 480 (kgs)

http://www.jbis.jp/horse/0001194124/record/

Mgoraf · 23-09-2016 3:12pm

Fair Eva beaten at odds on again. Very disappointing last two runs from her

Lt Dan · 23-09-2016 3:16pm

Mgoraf wrote: »

Fair Eva beaten at odds on again. Very disappointing last two runs from her

Almost every time that the Racing Post puts a horse on its front page as the expected winner, it looses

tryfix · 09-10-2016 10:21pm

It's been a few informative weeks since anything's been posted in this thread. Following the flop of Queen Kindly in the Gp 1 Cheveley Park Stakes, the Frankel's flopped in another pair of Gp1s with favourite Toulifaut flopping after meeting trouble in running in the Prix Marcel Boussac and the well fancied Seven Heavens pulling like a headcase before flopping in the Dewhurst.

Notions about the Frankel's speediness need to be revised as his sons have been running with credit in races over a mile with Frankuus taking the Gp3 Prix De Conde over 1m 1f yesterday and Cunco running with great credit in 2nd in the Listed 1m 2f Zetland Stakes on the same day. Today Monarchs Glen took a 1m 1f maiden in the style of a potential Derby/Leger horse.

The Frankel's generally have a Dosage score of middle distance horses with Frankuus having a DI of 1.00 which is a Derby pedigree for a Galileo line horse. Cunco similarly has a DI of 1.00 despite being out of the speedy Danehill Dancer mare Chrysanthemum, Monarch's Glen DI 0.90 and the very promising Eminent DI of 0.88 have St Leger written all over them.

Frankel will be a stamina influence and he's far more likely to produce a Derby winner than a 2,000 Guineas winner.

tryfix · 11-10-2016 9:18pm

Just to flesh out why Frankel should be a reasonable influence for stamina probably similar to Galileo. At first I thought the Frankel's Dosage Indexes were miles out because of his own speed despite his 12f pedigree. The stamina he may be imparting could explain why the likes of Fair Eva DI 0.80 struggled for finishing speed in her last few races which were most likely over trips too short for her. If the Frankel's Dosage Indexes are correct then the Frankels could really take off as 3yos in the classic trials.

On a mating with Rosie's Posy the dam of San Remo, Make Believe and Dubawi Heights. The Frankel Colt has a DI of 1.00, the Dubawi colt has a DI of 1.22 and the Makfi colt has a DI of 1.67.

The dam of Frankuus also had 3 matings with Lawman giving a DI 1.67, a mating to the stamina influence Duke Of Marmalade giving a DI 1.40 and the Frankel colt with a DI of 1.00.

The super classy Da Re Mi produced So Mi Dar DI 0.75 by Dubawi, Erdogan by Frankel with a DI 0.74 and one by Oasis Dream with a DI of 1.10.

Honorine produced Count Octave DI 0.87 by Frankel, Treasure Beach DI 0.89 by Galileo , Elidor DI 1.33 by Cape Cross and Honorina DI 1.29 by Sea the Stars.

Pearling produced Ambrosia DI 1.25 by Frankel, Azizaan DI 1.67 by Dubawi and Decorated Knight DI 1.20 by Galileo.

Clepsydra produced Amser DI 0.93 by Frankel, Passage Of Time DI 1.29 by Dansili, Timetable by Observatory DI 1.40 and Sandglass DI 1.83 by Zafonic.

Johner · 21-10-2016 12:05pm

He had another winner at Newmarket the other day.

Cracksman trained by John Gosden won over a mile, looked to have hit the line very strong in the end and should relish a step up in trip.

Three more making their debuts today at Newbury and Doncaster.

Uae King – 1.20pm Newbury – Friday 21st October

On paper, this could be one of the most exciting Frankel runners to date. Uae King is a Roger Varian trained colt out of the Italian Oaks winning dam Zomaradah. He is a half-brother to none other than champion Classic winner Dubawi, so unsurprisingly big things will be expected from him. Other notable half-siblings include the Group 2 winner Emirates Queen and Princess Nada. His pedigree suggests he will be at his best at trips at 1m+.

Commander – 2.25pm Newbury – Friday 21st October

Costing no less than 670,000gns, this Derby entrant is the first Frankel Foal for the ownership of the China Horse Club. Like Uae King, the colt is trained by Roger Varian. He is a half-brother to seven winners that won at distances ranging from 6f-1m4f, suggesting that he will have a good mix of speed and stamina, therefore starting him out at a mile makes perfect sense. James Doyle takes the ride in what looks like a good Newbury maiden.

Mirage Dancer – 3.10pm Doncaster – Friday 21st October

Another Frankel Foal that will bear the colours of Khalid Bin Abdullah. This one will be the mount of Ryan Moore for trainer Sir Michael Stoute. He is a half-brother to useful winners such as Forge and Radiator but it is when you delve deeper into his pedigree that it becomes more impressive. The colt boasts a grandam of the exceptional Hasili – also dam of Champs Eysees, Banks Hill, Intercontinental, Cacique and Dansili and has a Derby entry to his name.

Johner · 21-10-2016 3:13pm

The first two were disappointing but Mirage Dancer really hit the line strong over 7f, took him a while for the penny to drop.

tryfix · 01-11-2016 12:22pm

After all the hype in the UK the real record of Frankel's first crop is not that of a future champion sire. Out of 5 individual 2yo GP1 runners the nearest any of them came to winning a GP1 was 5 1/4l behind the winner. In Europe as a whole Frankel has has 35 runners and 16 winners ( 45%) a long way from the 100% type strike rate that has been on UK lips. He has sired three pattern race winners A Gp2 winner, 3 Gp3 winners and a listed race win, none of which were capable of making it in Gp1 company.

Thought his 2 in the 10f GP1 Grand Criterium on Sunday might have shown that a step up in trip would bring out huge improvement in the Frankel's, it didn't Cunco and Frankuus both finished one paced 5 1/4l and 6 3/4l behind Waldgeist on Sunday with donkeys like Taj Mahal ahead of them. With the winner Waldgeist massively turning around his previous defeat by Frankuus and also Prinz Hlodowig the 2nd in that race finished ahead of Frankuus this time. A case again of the Frankel's not progressing at the same rate as their peers. Maybe next year something will click in them or maybe the soft ground might have been against them in France but the odds are increasingly against the Frankel's living up to the hype.

kfallon · 01-11-2016 12:32pm

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

Peintre Celebre · 01-11-2016 2:10pm

kfallon wrote: »

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

Galileo did get an Irish Guineas winner but started slowly. But hardly comparable given the book that Frankel got in his first season. He must be the most over hyped stallion ever, RP ran a piece during the week on his 'outstanding' start to stud. I'm sure the ones who paid 115k and kept to race aren't exactly thinking the same

tryfix · 01-11-2016 2:26pm

kfallon wrote: »

Flat track bullies imo!

Tho, tbf, I don't think Galileo was quick out of the blocks as a stallion either (open to correction on that)

The thing about Galileo was that he was the opposite of Frankel in many ways as a young stallion. He wasn't hyped as a stallion prospect and started at IR £50,000 vs £125,000 for Frankel, so his initial crops weren't block filled with the cream of broodmares like Frankel's has been. Galileo is a good comparison point in ways because of the similarity in staying power they seem to impart to their stock. It wasn't until Galileo's fifth crop that he hit near Frankel's fee and by that stage he'd already been producing a conveyor belt of champion 2yo Gp1 winners.

The hype with Frankel has been about how quick he has been out of the blocks in England ( 15 winners from 28 ( 54%) ( 10 for 10 or so at one stage ) and in the very promising style his runners have won their maidens.

It's hard to avoid the flat track bully possibility at this stage but it is early in his career so things could change quickly when his runners hit 3.

There's a bit of a feeling that a lot of his horses don't have a particular trip, they seem to just keep going whatever the trip, a bit like himself without the turbo power.

kfallon · 01-11-2016 2:50pm

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Galileo did get an Irish Guineas winner but started slowly. But hardly comparable given the book that Frankel got in his first season. He must be the most over hyped stallion ever, RP ran a piece during the week on his 'outstanding' start to stud. I'm sure the ones who paid 115k and kept to race aren't exactly thinking the same

Oh I totally agree, all I'm saying is that there is still time for him to turn it around and become a superb stallion!

I couldn't give a shít tho, to be perfectly honest, sick of the hype! Poor man's Sea The Stars!

The Frankel Foals Watch Thread!

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